Detonation & distributors..

Website · Post by **murcod** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 7:42 pm

How common is detonation with Ferozas? I've heard of a few people having problems and mine is still playing up even after ultrasonically cleaning the injectors. It's mainly steep hills in second and third gear that seem to be the problem, and only at lower revs (2000-3000rpm).

Also do all model Ferozas have the antiquated mechanical distributor setup ?(with it's two vacuum advances, springs, mechanical weights, strings, mirrors etc... :roll:

)

Has anyone tried modifying the timing curve to cure detonation? I'm beginning to wonder if the springs in mine have stretched allowing full advance to kick in too early??

Or maybe an adjustable fuel pressure regulator would help if its a leaning out problem?

Website · Post by **murcod** » Sat Apr 12, 2003 9:00 pm

Tried setting the timing back to 3 degrees BTDC today. Had problems with detonation, I've noticed it is definitely worse on hot days (above 25 degrees), and today was only low 20's. I've also got premium unleaded (95RON) fuel in it at the moment......

What does everyone else set their timing to???? Factory spec is 3 degrees BTDC +- 2 degrees, with the vacuum advance disabled.

Post by **Spinner** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 2:00 pm

Hi all. I'm a newie. I've also noticed this problem. I'm running at about 10deg BTDC using PULP and it detonates. But even if i set it at the 3 deg mark (vacuum blocked to set) it's a stumbling slug and still detonates. 10deg gives me the best balance. Yeah that is advanced! :idea:

My compression reads high at 215PSI so i thought carbon was the problem. I've removed the head and cleaned out all the carbon, it's now 210PSI and still detonates

But it does idle very smoothly now. I now suspect the head has been milled for reasons unknown by a previous owner to have such high PSI. But that eliminates the carbon theory. The detonation still occurs at above 2000rpm under load. I now think that the distributors mechanical advance is advancing to early. Perhaps the govenor springs are too weak or worn. Has anyone experimented with their distributor to see if they can eliminate the detonation by changing these? Daihatsu only supply original replacement springs and weights. No kits available. Food for thought........Goes away if you crank the music up

Post by **Ferwoaza** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 2:06 pm

It's been my experience that these suckers detonate if the timing is wrong, and your not running PULP.

I just had my engine rebuilt and it will ping, but only on bad fuel at around 5500rpm in 3rd gear going up hill...bloody hard to do in other words

Seems that the older they get, the more ping they get. I switched to PULP when I 1st noticed it and didn't get it after that...

Post by **Spinner** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 2:39 pm

Ferwoaza - can you tell me what your timing is set to? Also do you know what compression your engine is reading now after the rebuild? And one more...is the detonation sound you hear the classic bottle rattle or a "zing" as I describe the noise i hear? There is a slight possibility I'm confusing it with engine resonation through the exhaust. I'm running MRT headers with hi flow cat and muffler on a 2" system. I started noticing the sound after these went on. Can't recall it being a problem before. Tempted to put a larger muffler on to see if that effects the sound.

Post by **Ferwoaza** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:09 pm

Boy that sounds familiar. I 1st heard it when I had the MRT full exhaust put on as well :lol:

Sounds like someone shooting a lot of peas at aluminium foil with a bit of a ring on the end....

The "whistle" I used to have was the exhaust. My timing is currently set to bog standard. Don't know what compression is now, but before the rebuild it was something like :

Cyl 1 - 130
Cyl 2 - 125
Cyl 3 - 0
Cyl 4 - 108

Website · Post by **murcod** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 4:48 pm

I hope extractors don't make it worse! Mine are due to arrive anyday now..... In summer even running 98 octane BP Ultimate I get some detonation at 3 degrees BTDC. In winter it's fine.

I was toying with the idea of modifying the springs in my distributor- or getting new ones in case they've stretched. There's also a kit at Jaycar for electronically controlling your timing- it even gives the option of two preset curves (eg. Premium and normal ULP).

Post by **Le0n** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 7:07 am

Iused to run about 10 degrees advance and Roza flew but then Shane had a drive and told me about the funny noise he could hear. Retimed back to 3degrees and not so powerfull but Rod Santos can't hear any pinging.

Being near deaf has it's drawback or is that just a sympton of being older? :finger:

Post by **Spinner** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 7:57 am

Ferwoaza - I'm keen to get a good mechanic to look at my engine to see if its outa wack in some way. Would you recommend the mechanic who did your rebuild? Or can someone recommend a Feroza experienced mechanic in Brisbane? Using PULP my timing mark sits right on the left hand edge of the timing block on the casing. I figure that to be approx 10deg. If I adjust to the centre mark (3deg) it coughs and splutters until you get the revs up. No way can I make it run at 3deg and it still makes that "shooting peas on foil sound" no matter where I set it

Post by **Ferwoaza** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 8:42 am

Here are the details of my mechanic

Jay's Service Centre (business name has change to something else just this week).
Unit 1/ 57 Logan River Rd Beenleigh 4207 (07) 3807 5717

The owners name is Tony, awesome asian dude who recently moved up from Sydney to take over the business from another friend of mine. I was one of his 1st customers. He didn't do the bottom end rebuild on mine, farmed that out to daihatsu experts (he'll be able to tell you who) but he did do the top end on Heathers and the full removal/install of both our engines. This guy knows his stuff...

Tell him Murray sent you, should treat you well

He charges around $50/hour labour and can get pretty good prices on parts as well..

Website · Post by **murcod** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 10:35 am

dipstick wrote:Ferwoaza - I'm keen to get a good mechanic to look at my engine to see if its outa wack in some way. Would you recommend the mechanic who did your rebuild? Or can someone recommend a Feroza experienced mechanic in Brisbane? Using PULP my timing mark sits right on the left hand edge of the timing block on the casing. I figure that to be approx 10deg. If I adjust to the centre mark (3deg) it coughs and splutters until you get the revs up. No way can I make it run at 3deg and it still makes that "shooting peas on foil sound" no matter where I set it

Wayne have you checked your vacuum advance is working? You should be able to see the timing advance using a timing light when you reconnect the vacuum line to the distributor. That could be why you get the spluttering until the revs rise?

I can't believe you guys can run 10 degrees BTDC! :shock:

I think my engine would detonate itself into a molten mass of aluminium within 5 minutes.... :lol:

Post by **Ferwoaza** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 10:53 am

Leons rig sounded like he was towing tin cans going uphill when he had it that far advanced :lol:

Shane and I both heard it instantly and were telling him to back it off

Website · Post by **murcod** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 11:32 am

Ferwoaza wrote:Leons rig sounded like he was towing tin cans going uphill when he had it that far advanced Shane and I both heard it instantly and were telling him to back it off

It goes to show how much the HD-E engine will put up with then!

On another note I remember a friend bought a brand new Feroza back around '96 and he had problems with it detonating from day one of ownership. Don't know if he ever got it sorted out or not? Didn't ever think I'd buy one back then so I didn't take much notice. :roll:

Post by **Ferwoaza** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 11:54 am

When I bought mine I didn't hear it for 3 months. Then I got the extractors and the whistle was gone, THEN I could hear it :lol:

I reckon almost every Feroza does it, and a lot of owners don't realise it...and these engines seem to go for years with it happening....does go to show good strength.

Post by **SimplyPV** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 12:33 pm

ok that concerns me.... lol... i dont hear it myself... an i jus run a boss turbo exhaust on mine at the moment... hmmm.... no risks here or what?

Post by **Spinner** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 2:15 pm

David - I'll check the vacuum advance out visually as you suggest. I have only checked it functionally by removing the distributor and with a length of hose sucked on the sub and main ports to see the mechanisim work. I did notice that the sub port (closest to the housing) really required strong vacuum to move it compared to the main (on the outside). Is that normal?
And does it matter which way around they are connected.? And why two vacuum adavces?

Post by **Spinner** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 2:18 pm

Oh.... and the detonation sound is no worse at 10deg to 3deg.

______________________
Wayne

Website · Post by **murcod** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 2:51 pm

Wayne, I think it does matter which tube is hooked up where. From memory one of them goes up to just before the throttle butterfly, while the other is after it. I've got all the details at home and can check if your not sure which goes where.

As for why there are two advances, well...... I've often pondered that myself! Give me ECU controlled timing anyday!

I can also check the specs out for the two vacuum advancers- I'm sure figures are given in the manual for when they are supposed to operate.

Post by **Spinner** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 3:12 pm

Be curious to know the answers to both if you can check for me. I'll swapp'm around before I head home this evening and see what happens :roll:

____________________
Wayne

Website · Post by **murcod** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 3:22 pm

I won't be able to Email you the info until later tonight..... Don't have it here with me.

Maybe someome else with the manual on CD might be able to help you out before then??

Website · Post by **murcod** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 7:16 pm

OK Wayne there's an Email coming at you!

Post by **Le0n** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 6:46 am

Will this help?

Post by **Le0n** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 6:52 am

This time?

Post by **Spinner** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 3:07 pm

Thanks guys, that all helps. The manual drawing proved my hoses are where they should be. I did as you suggested David and checked the advance the vacuum gives. Firstly with no vacuum I set timing back to the centre mark (3deg BTDC) then reconnected the vacuum hose. The mark then moved left to just off the timing block on the casing. Probably something around 12deg. Is this enough advance on idle. Is this what others see if set to 3 deg advance :?:

__________________
Wayne.

Website · Post by **murcod** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 8:17 pm

Yes, around 12 degrees sounds like around where mine was with the vacuum connected. The other test is then to free rev the engine and see what the timing does. It should decrease as you open the throttle (vacuum advance decreasing) and increase again as the revs rise (centrifigal weights doing their thing).

From memory full advance should be reached by 3000RPM.

Website · Post by **murcod** » Thu Feb 12, 2004 11:20 am

Just an update on the detonation / pre-ignition which seems to affect a lot of Ferozas.

So far to try and fix mine I've done the following :
-removed injectors and had them ultrasonically cleaned and flow tested,
-checked the timing
-tried a second distributor (thanks Croz

)
-tried fuel injector cleaner
-checked the fuel flow rate

All of the above made no difference / or checked out OK. The timing I run is at 1 degree BTDC (factory spec is 3+-2) plus I've been using 98 Octane fuel and still had some detonation on hot days. It only occurs on very steep hills.

I've also fitted a K&N air filter and extractors and they've had no effect (- not that I was expecting them to!)

Have a read of the following thread from the General Tech section, because using the products mentioned in the last portion has definitely made an improvement!

I'm not saying it's fixed, but I now get no detonation at 1 degree BTDC, so I will soon be trying to advance the timing further.

http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modul ... hp?t=12956

So it appears carbon build up in the combustion chamber is to blame. I'm still investigating using water injection or something similar to clean out the engine a bit more.

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Detonation & distributors..

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