WT vs NT- Discussion

[Gwagensteve]

Suzukiboy runs a basic NT setup - 30's, lockers, small lift.

He is very keen on his setup, and interestingly, we have had a similar car in the club, 30's, small lift etc and it was capable and reliable, and seems pretty stable- suprisingly capable, considering the tyre size and lack of real flex.

Now, it seems to run 31's on a NT you need a 2" BL and lots of rim offset, (pretty much making the car as wide as a WT) Christovers NT, is about as wide as a WT on 8" rims due to some extreme rim offset, but also runs a 2" bl and lots of hammering/trimming. It is very stable and flexible but getting those 31's on there with a soft suspension and the extra leverage of the offset rims took a lot of work.

My "Hedgepig" (don't ask ) is a NT 1.0 tray running 34x9 swampers on 16X4.5 stock sierra rims, 2" BL, 2" bumpstop spacers and stuff all steering lock.


My car has been dynamite in deep mud, an observation suzukiboy shares, but my car spends a lot of time on its side, and has plenty of panel damage from only 2 trips. I am going 100mm over WT with my axles, so obviously I want more than WT, but I have been surprised with the NT.

What's the point where it is a waste of time sticking with NT's? Christover is running 1.0 diffs with 4.88 lj50 gears, so he is not keen to go WT, but for 1.3 owners, has anyone gone WT and felt a loss of capability?

Does the increase in articulation and stability of the WT make up for the loss of effective diff clearance because the car settles into the bottom of the rut?

What's the useful build limit of a NT? 30? 31? 7.50R16?

Throw your 2c in peoples.

PS if ANYONE says just go hilux diffs shut up and buy a hilux, this is about suzukis.

Steve.

[nicbeer]

i ran 31s on 7's under my NT drover. 2" sus lift and 1" bumpstop packers went well. scrubbed every now and again but never concerned.

New one is 31's on WT's on WT chassis and 2" BL and flat springs for now.

Nic

[Mud_Muncher]

Hey Steve,

I always thought that NT's were no good because they were to skinny. But after seeing yours wheel, it has made me change my tune a little. They are far from no good, just different. You almost drive in a totally different style then a wider car. Like using the high rut to grab your tyre and sliding along the banks. As you said it is not great on panels, but we aint talking about a 50k sports car or even a Gwagon.

At the end of the day you drive the car you have and you may have to adapt to that truck, which is part of the skill and of course, most importantly FUN of driving.

Then again I drive the widest of the solid axle zooks the mighty Jimny , and my car has been on its side good and proper. So what would I know about NT's .

[Nev]

Mine is a NT with 30's on 15x7's with just OME 40mm lift springs so I can't answer your question about a loss of capability by going to WT but thought I'd put forward my opinion on my setup. I must say, I am really suprised with the places mine goes with this setup at times but diff clearance is the main thing that sometimes bring me undone. On the same token though, if I were to go WT (which i've thought about) I think that as you said steve, you would have problems with then falling in the ruts that form on a more common width from bigger cars and therefore I would only exacerbate the clearance problem unless I ran much bigger tyres. The ability of the NT to claw at fresh dirt or take a different line due to width I think is its biggest asset. For instance some sections on a track may force a large vehicle to take only one or maybe two lines whereas the NT may have the option of 5 lines and avoid step ups etc. that are stopping the big trucks due solely to width, although wheelbase of course plays a factor but I'm very happy with the LWB.

I also found with my old setup (31's, 2" body, 2" spring, ext shackles) the car was just too tippy and didnt get the grip on side slopes it does now due to a lower COG. In short, I'm happy with my current setup and use the narrow width as an advantage as opposed to the common mindset of it being a disadvantage.

John.

[hyzook]

I really think it comes down to the track your driving, I went on a trip recently where well set up longy's were struggling a double step and a v rut only to watch a shorty drive staight up it and likewise for trackwidth the other longy' had lux diffs and some sections my W/T diffs were better suited and on other sections they were. My set up is N/T chassis and W/T diffs which (I believe) gives me extra travel and full steering with 33's.
The great thing about this game is the combinations are endless and results are never concusive.

[nicbeer]

i hope the stability of my new one will be better than the old.

worst i felt it was on the beach and constantly dropping in one track and over to another.

[dank]

i just went from 30s on 15x7s to 31s on 15x8s with a big offset. other mods are 2inch OME spring lift and 2 inch longer shackles and 1 inch bumpstop on the front only.

My track width has increased by 70mm each side wider than when I had the 30s on 15x7 ROH Trak 2s with whatever offset they come with.

It's only been a few weeks since I've done this but I feel that the car is a lot more stable due to the increase in track width and the increased ability of the springs to do their job working with the longer shackles.

i have managed to get away with no bodylift extremely minimal rubbing and I reckon the car is now more stable that what it was before. Driving ruts only time will tell but haven't had any issues as its still narrower than most cruisers and patrols....

Mine


84ZOOKSTA


For a well set up NT i don't think you can go too far past 84ZOOKSTA's setup... 3 inch BL(i think) and 32s on flat springs and offset rims. He drives everything that I do and its interesting to watch the different lines that he takes compared to mine in some situations especially deep ruts. With 6.4 gears he only complains that his little rice burner 1.0L doesn't give him enough power at times...

but then again...an NT with locked front and rear diffs on 235 Muddies and no other mods can probably get further than both mine and 84ZOOKSTA....

Does the increase in articulation and stability of the WT make up for the loss of effective diff clearance because the car settles into the bottom of the rut?

if you are driving steep stuff then yes, its not use driving steep stuff if you keep on falling over! But mud is a different story. NT would probably be better as it would ride the ruts better.

[christover1]

I fell over more when I was narrower, and got more panel damage, which at times did hang me up on banks. I guess its possible that I also drive better after years of experience, than I did back then.

I am happier with the wider stance, not just stability, but sides of car don't drag the banks now which can cause loss of motion. But it is totally a different driving style, and there are probs with dropping both wheels into ruts.

In my case the 1.0 litre diffs are perfect, for 2 reasons, 1 is the cheap access to diff gearing, the other is the smaller pumpkin gives me a better diff clearance. This means more affordable sized rubber can suffice.

I like wider track on narrow track spring spacing for obvious travel increases and tyre clearance from chassis etc. but WT diffs would certainly be better for scrub radius issues.

but its horses for courses of course

christover

[sierrajim]

NT is kind of cool.

I've been running Doof for a short while as a NT (1.0ltr diff clearance is tops ) on 31" MTR's with 15x8 F100 offset rims. It's wider than a stock NT , duh, and has:

- Extended shackles

- OME springs with leaves removed

- NO body lift

I believe you can run a 1.3 CV in the 1.0ltr knuckle, the axles are the same diameter just the diff centres are smaller in the 1.0

So you can run either a NT on 31's with minimal changes to the car or you can run a WT on 33's with the same overall clearance but you have to have spring lift, body lift etc.

[Zute]

I'm the same as Nev, 30"muds on 15x7, 2" spring lift . I think NT drivers are more careful about tipping over so choose different lines. But I also get stuck where SWB get through. And vice verse'a.
Was fun driving through bogs that Patrols where getting stuck in. They couldn't see that I was gripping the middle ridge with both wheels.

P.S. My rear wheels rub in the wheel tubs when flexed.

[nicbeer]

N
So you can run either a NT on 31's with minimal changes to the car or you can run a WT on 33's with the same overall clearance but you have to have spring lift, body lift etc.

u talking NT 1ltr as the NT and WT 1.3s are same housing size.

[grimbo]

I had a NT LWB ute that went through various stages of modifications.

Started with a 2" OME lift and 235s then to 31s which touched everywhere so on went a 2" BL. This worked great, a stable, flexible car. Then went to 7.00 x 16 Firestone SATs on medium offset rims. Best tyres I've owned, perfect for the Sierra and made it nearly unstoppable with the addition of a rear locker.

Once again the mod bug bit and went up to 34" Swampers on massively offset rims with some firewall massaging, guard trimming and headlight bucket trimming. Again performed very well withh the air locker by now and lower gears.

Still not enough so went to wide track diffs using NT spring spacing, keptthe offset rims on with the 34s. Now had front & rear lockers and even lower gearing. Awesome flex and capabilty.

In thhat time the type of terrain and obstacles we drove changed considerably but I'm not sure if all those mods done were absolutely neccessary to drive these challenges. yes it could do them easier but many were still possible in Chris' not as modified NT. His setup was lot less money and nearly as capable, but with his driving skill probably as capable.

So after all that dribble when I get another Sierra (I wish I had the cash now to buy Doof ) I would probably build it to the NT diff, offset rims and either a 7.00 or 7.50 SAT (if I could get some) stage with a rear locker

man here's a blast from the past
http://www.rockcrawler.com/readersrides ... asp?ID=753

[ofr57]

Well mine is a NT ute 2 inch body 2 inch suspension

I'm happy with it .. the mine thing i find with it is the gearing is shot since i got 31s

goign to get some 5.14 calminis for the transfercae soon
redo the front bull bar an tray

but later on I'm most likly going to put some longer springs in an get some wt's ... by this time it most likly will be a comp car instead of a DD

but hay i love it when you can sneak through things patrols have trouble with

[nicbeer]

man here's a blast from the past
http://www.rockcrawler.com/readersrides ... asp?ID=753

So thats what the mango looked like from newish. all i recognise is the plates and bullbar

Any reason the bonnet is in the back in the water crossing.
did u ever do the spoa and 33's

[Spike_Sierra]

i am very much a fan of NT zooks.
my brother has a wt and as stated previously, i seem to grab onto sides of ruts instead of sit in them. I run 30's on 15x8's, and a 2 inch body lift and 1 inch shackle.
As im at uni, im not so much into the 4wding side of things so i like reliability. So most of my money went into the engine side, with an efi jimny donk sitting in its place. Had a rear locker(welded) for a while, but decided to take it out as i got new tyres, and didnt want them to wear out so fast.
If i went wt i would really rather a 88.5 model as the plastic guards would be much better over the easily dented metal ones.

[grimbo]

rear engined

Nah I was having over heating problems, it was about 40Ëš+. Thatpic was in the shallower bit I have one somewhere else of it halfway up the windscreen.

Never did do the SPOA but went to 34s instead of the 33s

[nicbeer]

Now i dont know if its the best thing to go for WT's

My old NT was as wide as a mates WT anyway slmost so i dont think it will hurnt my driving too much.

But having lockers should hepla lot anyway.

nic

[MUD-PIGSIERRA]

Gwagensteve are you also running SPOA or standard...?

I Dont know if this is totally correct or correct me some one if I am, here goes.

NT runs the Springs inline with the chassis and has narrower diffs than the WT

The WT Sierra outboarded the Springs from the chassis whilst also making longer diffs(axles whatever) hence WT so has a wider track than the NT..? and then becoming more stable

Im currently in a NT Sierra 84 model with all the newer 1.3 Running gear including the longer axles and running a big offset rim. So Im assuming with the longer diffs and offset Im pretty much the same as a WT with similar gear but have a better steering clearance when going full lock or a chance to run fat tires without them hitting on the Spring...? Currently SPOA standard leaf with load bearing ones removed 31"s and 2.5" body lift.

My last Sierra was a WT and ran the same rim offset and SPOA between the two one was a softtop the other a hard top, I didnt really notice the difference in stability on trails but the WT had a harder ride due to more leaf packs and so on the road it was more stable in that sense. I guess the other thing is with the crawler gears it feels more controlled now as I can wheel at proper crawl speed allowing me to notice a change in direction alot easier example feeling my car tipping over. Though I have come close to tipping over I have been pretty lucky so far.

[grimbo]

no SPOA with Gwagensteve or pretty much any of the Suzuki club guys, there are a few though, like droopypete. Generally we run SPUA with rears up front

[MUD-PIGSIERRA]

no SPOA with Gwagensteve or pretty much any of the Suzuki club guys, there are a few though, like droopypete. Generally we run SPUA with rears up front

Just preference or hard to get engineered these days...? My mate is running WT Sierra RUF, SPUA and body lift with the Dakar lifted springs running 31"s and can flex right up into the guards without scrubbing. We both can do what each other can do at the moment. Though in some cases I have better approach angles due to SPOA and thats where I see the advantage of SPOA

[grimbo]

preference and performance for our conditions. We can run up 36" tyres on SPUA with mild lifts and lots of cutting

[suzuki boy]

I like how mine is at the moment!

Mine has front and rear lockers, 2" suspension lift , 2" shackles(Witch lifts it 1"), winch blah blah blah and it keeps up with rigs that have 35's and lockers and stuff!

As has been said my car was straight till i got my p's on the 23rd of feb and now there are dints every where! You can't be afraid to hug ledges and deep ruts and stuff and you get to know the angles you can drive!

All i want is the 31's(some in the pipe line now! ) and i have -15 off set rims readdy under my bed then cut the old brackets for the stock bar, some work with a hammer and i don't think it will rub?

I like mine but you can't be scared about body damage and it will eat ANY THING in the mud!

I'm happy with mine all i really need is the reduction gears ASAP!

[Jaffa]

My old NT's panels really took a beating, it wasn't a DD so I never really tried to keep it off the banks. I think that in some conditions the NT are a bit better then WT, but I recon that difference is more than made up by the extra stability you get with a WT

This pick was before I had rolled it... on this side anyway.

[fool_injected]

WT with narrow track spacing makes for good flex but also heaps of body roll, is that correct

I'm going down this track for my comp truck would this make it a mongral on the road or would it be wiser to go WT spacing reguardless of the extra work required wit outrigging the mounts?
Front will be ruff with a chassis extension and shackle reversal
Rears will likely be Mazda or Lux

Thats said my current DD is HT, NT. SOA, 2" spings, std shackles 31's

[Sean]

I have found that in a few instances that my stock coily, which is 30mm wider than a WT has gone further as the increased articulation allows the wheels to be on the ground longer. I could be wrong though, i am just referencing from videos off of youtube. that said there have been a few hairy situations where a NT would have been a bit safer for a driver who has just started.

cheers,

Sean

[grimbo]

WT with narrow track spacing makes for good flex but also heaps of body roll, is that correct

I'm going down this track for my comp truck would this make it a mongral on the road or would it be wiser to go WT spacing reguardless of the extra work required wit outrigging the mounts?
Front will be ruff with a chassis extension and shackle reversal
Rears will likely be Mazda or Lux

Thats said my current DD is HT, NT. SOA, 2" spings, std shackles 31's

I didn't think the body roll was any worse than when I had NT diffs and back spaced wheels. You learn to drive accordingly

[ofr57]

I have found that in a few instances that my stock coily, which is 30mm wider than a WT has gone further as the increased articulation allows the wheels to be on the ground longer. I could be wrong though, i am just referencing from videos off of youtube. that said there have been a few hairy situations where a NT would have been a bit safer for a driver who has just started.

cheers,

Sean

i noticed this with mine as i said before when drving through a creek bed i could fit between things where as a wider car (tj , GQ) had to go over it

[suzuki boy]

All i can say is thank good i spent the $25 on steel and made the rock rails!

Was having a look just then and they have copped a beating!

[Gwagensteve]

WT with narrow track spacing makes for good flex but also heaps of body roll, is that correct

I'm going down this track for my comp truck would this make it a mongral on the road or would it be wiser to go WT spacing reguardless of the extra work required wit outrigging the mounts?
Front will be ruff with a chassis extension and shackle reversal
Rears will likely be Mazda or Lux

Thats said my current DD is HT, NT. SOA, 2" spings, std shackles 31's

No, a Wt car with NT spring spacing will not body roll any worse than an NT car. It will body roll worse than a WT car though. Off road however, it will articulate better than either.

There might be some point in starting with a WT chassis and only running NT spacing in the front, as the lower roll stiffness in the front will make the car nicer to drive off road, but on road it would make the car a bit strange.

Ps suzukiboy - The limitation with NTs is not that you get panel damage - but that getting hung up on the panels is what stops the car rather than running out of traction or clearance. IMHO the advantage of the NT stops when out of mud as you can't choose to run on the crown of the rut when you are on a big side angle. Trying results in the car falling, hard, into the bank, loosing all momentum even if not actually falling over.

I think that pushing a NT out to WT width kind of misses the point- once you do this, the massive scrub radius makes for lots of cutting work in the front - so much that I reckon an NT with stoopid offset rims and 31's would have the same trimming as a wt car with more moderate offset and 33 or a narrow 34 for the same overall width.

This is sort of why a few of us are keen to try 100mm over WT in order to run very large tyres (35"+) with large backspacing- maybe as much as 5" on an 8" rim, with our low SPUA cars- we are tyring to really push the small scrub radius= minimum cutting thing as far as we can.

Which brings me back to my first idea, which might be that the ultimate set up for a NT might be a 30 on a narrow rim, larger tyres are possible, but it seems to me that the added height and room they require starts to make the NT a limitation.

Steve.

[ofr57]

this is an area what i havn't have though about scrubbing

with my set up atm the major scrub is on the chassie then alittle on the front of the wheel well where the light goes

so steve how much does srubbing increase with WT under a NT does it?

or would it be for me to just get some -23 8 inch rims