Urban motoring Myth???

[crankycruiser]

I was talking to a decent mechanic the other day and he asked me if i had taken my New Triton in for its 15000k service, i said no and asked why..

his reply was that on the 15k service that they "de tune" the engine via the computer, as to protect the drive line so their warrenty holds up... he also said that even if i didnt take it to mitsu that the computer would do it automaticly....

also informed me that this was the case with the new xr6 turbo falcons, but with them if u didnt take it to ford then it didnt get de tuned tho...

one thing that does strike me is one of the mechanics at mitsy (the head mech) did tell me that they did have to reprogram the computers in them (the diesel ones) because thailand has a differnt grade diesel and ours ping on our lower grade diesel.. sounds like a good excuse if u ask me...

anyways u reckno its all fesible????

[chimpboy]

You waited 29 days to post this question?

[KiwiBacon]

I was talking to a decent mechanic the other day and he asked me if i had taken my New Triton in for its 15000k service, i said no and asked why..

his reply was that on the 15k service that they "de tune" the engine via the computer, as to protect the drive line so their warrenty holds up... he also said that even if i didnt take it to mitsu that the computer would do it automaticly....

also informed me that this was the case with the new xr6 turbo falcons, but with them if u didnt take it to ford then it didnt get de tuned tho...

one thing that does strike me is one of the mechanics at mitsy (the head mech) did tell me that they did have to reprogram the computers in them (the diesel ones) because thailand has a differnt grade diesel and ours ping on our lower grade diesel.. sounds like a good excuse if u ask me...

anyways u reckno its all fesible????

Sounds like a load of crap to me and something that'd be very easy to prove with a dyno.

If they had to detune them, they'd do it from day 1. Not wait until they've done 15,000km.

[crankycruiser]

You waited 29 days to post this question?

huh??

[Chook350]

i am not sure on that, i work at a mits dealer, i cant recall any tritons gettin pluged in on the 15,000. i know we have had probs with the cruise control. i will see wot i can find out tomorrow. As for the fords, i wouldnt doubt it, gota make up for all the first batch that had defective oilpump drives.

[crankycruiser]

i am not sure on that, i work at a mits dealer, i cant recall any tritons gettin pluged in on the 15,000. i know we have had probs with the cruise control. i will see wot i can find out tomorrow. As for the fords, i wouldnt doubt it, gota make up for all the first batch that had defective oilpump drives.

no tritons have cruiser control???

and i hope ur right!

[chimpboy]

You waited 29 days to post this question?

huh??

29 days ago would've been April 1st... it sounds like a bit of a leg pull to me but I guess anything's possible.

[tweak'e]

i have heard on other makes that when they check the error codes etc via pc that the ECU is reset ie it loses all its learnt data. this makes it go a bit slower till the ECU relearns the parameters.

[Chook350]

if the customer wants cruise we fit auscruise units.

[HotFourOk]

If they were protecting the driveline, they would be detuned from factory, then the customer would not notice any difference.
If you got it back with less power you would notice for sure, and words would be had

With computers, a lot of cars need to be detuned for the ADM. Europe and Japan have much higher grade and RON fuel than us, and it would ping as you said.

[Gwagensteve]

I think the source of the BA myth is due to torque limiting software.

The more aggressively you drive a BA or VT Gen3 on commodore, the more the computer backs power out of the engine to keep the driveline together. Apparently, with Gen 3's it can get so agressive that the car pretty much crawls off the line like it is in limp home.

This happened to by sister in law's partner, so it's not a furphy. The story goes as follows:

Young guy buys Gen3 SS ute.
After a couple on months, auto starts sort of "slipping" and "hesitiating" pulling away.
Gets really bad- "car kind of shudders and won't pull"

Eventually goes back to dealer, and they A)give him a talking to about driving style, "check the auto"and send him away. Doesn't improve, so he goes back and he gets another talking to and a "new gearbox" within a day or so. - cleared codes and bingo - full power back.


I have seen dyno sheets of this ocurring. Zoom mag has written up a bunch of stuff about it.

It wouldn't surprise me if Mitsubishi was doing somehting similar to hold the drivetrain together on hard driven tritons- the software has the capability.

Steve.

[KiwiBacon]

With computers, a lot of cars need to be detuned for the ADM. Europe and Japan have much higher grade and RON fuel than us, and it would ping as you said.

The original poster was talking about pinging on low grade diesel. Something I've never heard of.

[Gwagensteve]

The original poster was talking about pinging on low grade diesel. Something I've never heard of.

Yeah - kinda missed that.

Never heard of a diesel pinging either. I also believe that australia has quite good diesel. the problem with overseas models is that european market cars were set up for low sulphur a couple of years before we were.

Mitsu would definitely not be fixing that at the 15000 mark.

Steve.

[lay80n]

The original poster was talking about pinging on low grade diesel. Something I've never heard of.

Yeah - kinda missed that.

Never heard of a diesel pinging either. I also believe that australia has quite good diesel. the problem with overseas models is that european market cars were set up for low sulphur a couple of years before we were.

Mitsu would definitely not be fixing that at the 15000 mark.

Steve.

Our diesel is getting better, but its still pretty average in comparison to what other contrys get.

Layto....

[Shadow]

diesel pinging? lol

Thats what diesels do, pinging = compression ignition lol.

when your diesel stops pinging your in trouble!

[frp88]

I think the source of the BA myth is due to torque limiting software.

The more aggressively you drive a BA or VT Gen3 on commodore, the more the computer backs power out of the engine to keep the driveline together. Apparently, with Gen 3's it can get so agressive that the car pretty much crawls off the line like it is in limp home.

This happened to by sister in law's partner, so it's not a furphy. The story goes as follows:

Young guy buys Gen3 SS ute.
After a couple on months, auto starts sort of "slipping" and "hesitiating" pulling away.
Gets really bad- "car kind of shudders and won't pull"

Eventually goes back to dealer, and they A)give him a talking to about driving style, "check the auto"and send him away. Doesn't improve, so he goes back and he gets another talking to and a "new gearbox" within a day or so. - cleared codes and bingo - full power back.


I have seen dyno sheets of this ocurring. Zoom mag has written up a bunch of stuff about it.

It wouldn't surprise me if Mitsubishi was doing somehting similar to hold the drivetrain together on hard driven tritons- the software has the capability.

Steve.

so isn't it up to me how I drive my car and are you saying that the r8 and typhoon and gt all get slower the harder you drive them

[Gwagensteve]

so isn't it up to me how I drive my car and are you saying that the r8 and typhoon and gt all get slower the harder you drive them

Um, if the computer decides you are abusing the car, then yes, apparently. It is not about how you drive the car, it is about a)Protecting the car from failure B)protecting the manufacturers from warranty claims.

I don't know what triggers it, i.e what pattern of use, but the indication is that it is more than just having a squirt and seeing what it will do - it is part of the learning ability of the computer to recognise patterns of use. If the pattern of use indicates consistent heavy loads, the computer will start behaving like the cars has very agressive traction control and pulling power out.

I think the problem is more evident with autos than manuals as they can take more load off the line.

Obviously, depending on model, the software can be set up to do whatever the manufacturer wants.

Don't get me started on it mate.... I am so over traction control telling me how much throttle I can use it's not funny.

PS this information came about from gen3 and BA Turbo information in ZOOM a few years ago.

Steve.

[GBC]

I know subaru's do it too.
Drive them hard on a hot day (pinging) and the knock sensors will cause the computer to dial in more ignition advance to compensate. ECU gets a reflash at the service and all goes back to zero until the next hard drive.
b4's etc are notorious for it, but now that 100 ron is available it is less of an issue. Not sure how any of the above is relevent to a td mitsu tho.

[KiwiBacon]

so isn't it up to me how I drive my car and are you saying that the r8 and typhoon and gt all get slower the harder you drive them

Um, if the computer decides you are abusing the car, then yes, apparently. It is not about how you drive the car, it is about a)Protecting the car from failure B)protecting the manufacturers from warranty claims.

I've heard this before too. Given that I'm not a holden or ford nut (though i work with both), it's probably common knowledge among those who are.

[frp88]

I know subaru's do it too.
Drive them hard on a hot day (pinging) and the knock sensors will cause the computer to dial in more ignition advance to compensate. ECU gets a reflash at the service and all goes back to zero until the next hard drive.
b4's etc are notorious for it, but now that 100 ron is available it is less of an issue. Not sure how any of the above is relevent to a td mitsu tho.

I don't have a problem with that if the ecu see's a problem and adjust the parameters to compensate.But not having to go back to the dealer to pay to get it reset I see it that if I buy a car with 300kw then the car needs to able to handle it.I can't see the porsche or BMW Ferrari doing this

[KiwiBacon]

I don't have a problem with that if the ecu see's a problem and adjust the parameters to compensate.But not having to go back to the dealer to pay to get it reset I see it that if I buy a car with 300kw then the car needs to able to handle it.I can't see the porsche or BMW Ferrari doing this

I doubt the "abuse mode" coded into the ECU needs dealer reset. The logical way would be a time at normal operation before it'd trip.

We don't actually know what trips an ECU into "abuse mode". It could well be conditions like full revs, no load. Conditions that do nothing for performance but take their toll on your engine.

I'd expect all ECU controlled engines to have such a mode, regardles of maker.

[Gwagensteve]

I know subaru's do it too.
Drive them hard on a hot day (pinging) and the knock sensors will cause the computer to dial in more ignition advance to compensate. ECU gets a reflash at the service and all goes back to zero until the next hard drive.
b4's etc are notorious for it, but now that 100 ron is available it is less of an issue. Not sure how any of the above is relevent to a td mitsu tho.

I don't have a problem with that if the ecu see's a problem and adjust the parameters to compensate.But not having to go back to the dealer to pay to get it reset I see it that if I buy a car with 300kw then the car needs to able to handle it.I can't see the porsche or BMW Ferrari doing this

Couple of points here - Knock sensors, to the best of my knowledge, are an active measure and control ignition timing dynamically. They don't, as far as I am aware, knock the timing back and keep it there. That is why cars such as these make more power when you feed them better fuel - the knock car keeps tipping timing in until the knock sensors start to detect pinging and then they back some out. Obiously as temperature changes etc this is a very dynamic process.

frp88 - yep, high end manufacturers do also do this stuff - the BMW only permit one full power launch every 45 minutes in an M5 or the rear diff gives up. A number have failed on test.

Steve.

[mikesmith]

i think you will find on the new fords that u cant free rev the engine past 2500 rpm or 3500??

[HotFourOk]

but now that 100 ron is available it is less of an issue. Not sure how any of the above is relevent to a td mitsu tho.

B4 and STI model Subaru's are not designed to run on ethanol fuel.

The only 100 RON fuel contains 5% ethanol. (Shell V power Racing)

[turbo gu]

I know subaru's do it too.
Drive them hard on a hot day (pinging) and the knock sensors will cause the computer to dial in more ignition advance to compensate. ECU gets a reflash at the service and all goes back to zero until the next hard drive.
b4's etc are notorious for it, but now that 100 ron is available it is less of an issue. Not sure how any of the above is relevent to a td mitsu tho.

turbo models can suffer from overboosting and causing the ECU to go into limp mode but they don't reflash the computer it is a simple reset. the knock sensor decects knock then the ECU retards the timing till it stops pinging.
Most modern cars have Auto self learn which depending how the car is driven can cause shift problems but generally only with soft driven cars. i worked for a holden dealer for 5 years on GEN3 powered commodores and never heard or saw any abuse limiting software!! that would be an urban myth!!!!! I personally replaced 3 transmissions and 2 diffs and a flex plate on 1 VX clubsport in 15000kms all due to massive failures that were abuse.
I have heard about the XR6 relearn. it was on a forum somewhere with dyno proof from memory. It is not unusual for manufactures to release plenty of software updates for 1 model of car.

[lay80n]

I know subaru's do it too.
Drive them hard on a hot day (pinging) and the knock sensors will cause the computer to dial in more ignition advance to compensate. ECU gets a reflash at the service and all goes back to zero until the next hard drive.
b4's etc are notorious for it, but now that 100 ron is available it is less of an issue. Not sure how any of the above is relevent to a td mitsu tho.

turbo models can suffer from overboosting and causing the ECU to go into limp mode but they don't reflash the computer it is a simple reset. the knock sensor decects knock then the ECU retards the timing till it stops pinging.
Most modern cars have Auto self learn which depending how the car is driven can cause shift problems but generally only with soft driven cars. i worked for a holden dealer for 5 years on GEN3 powered commodores and never heard or saw any abuse limiting software!! that would be an urban myth!!!!! I personally replaced 3 transmissions and 2 diffs and a flex plate on 1 VX clubsport in 15000kms all due to massive failures that were abuse.
I have heard about the XR6 relearn. it was on a forum somewhere with dyno proof from memory. It is not unusual for manufactures to release plenty of software updates for 1 model of car.

Holden do have a abuse mode, mainly to stop people fully stalling up auto GEN III's and then giving them the berries. After a few hard launches it kicks in. But it is still possible to break them, as like you i replaced plenty of broken Holden stuff from abuse when i worked at a Holden dealership.


Layto....

[Ruffy]

diesel pinging? lol

Thats what diesels do, pinging = compression ignition lol.

when your diesel stops pinging your in trouble!

When your diesel starts pinging your in deep shit actually. There is a difference between detonation and pre ignition.
When we talk of a petrol car pining it can be through either pre igntion or detonation.
In a diesel every fire is from detonation, as you mentioned, through compression igniton. If, however, the ignition takes place before it was meant to then you will have dangerous pinging. The piston needs to be a certain distance away from the top of it's stroke on ignition. If it's not close enough to the top the the fire tries to force it down before it reaches the top.
Dan

[KiwiBacon]

When your diesel starts pinging your in deep shit actually. There is a difference between detonation and pre ignition.
When we talk of a petrol car pining it can be through either pre igntion or detonation.
In a diesel every fire is from detonation, as you mentioned, through compression igniton. If, however, the ignition takes place before it was meant to then you will have dangerous pinging. The piston needs to be a certain distance away from the top of it's stroke on ignition. If it's not close enough to the top the the fire tries to force it down before it reaches the top.
Dan

That's an injection timing issue (too far advanced). Diesels have no fuel present in the cylinder until the injector fires, hence nothing to pre-ignite.

Unless of course your engine is on the way out and sucking oil from the breather into the intake.

[Shadow]

When your diesel starts pinging your in deep shit actually. There is a difference between detonation and pre ignition.
When we talk of a petrol car pining it can be through either pre igntion or detonation.
In a diesel every fire is from detonation, as you mentioned, through compression igniton. If, however, the ignition takes place before it was meant to then you will have dangerous pinging. The piston needs to be a certain distance away from the top of it's stroke on ignition. If it's not close enough to the top the the fire tries to force it down before it reaches the top.
Dan

That's an injection timing issue (too far advanced). Diesels have no fuel present in the cylinder until the injector fires, hence nothing to pre-ignite.

Unless of course your engine is on the way out and sucking oil from the breather into the intake.

^

[bradley]

dealer detunes etc. load of shiza... Depending on the vehicle make during the pre delivery preperation you can set the parameters in the ecu for the local fuel ratings, hence selecting the right ignition and fuel maps. Most ecu's will pull timing out of the map when knocking is detected, some ecus can learn between low and high octane fuel and switch maps as required. The jackaroos have a very good learning ecu and constantly adjust to keep the best target figures as required in the fuel and spark maps, not just closed loop lambda chasing.

Auto crapadores have anti abuse programming in them to control the auto.

new fords have a nasty combo of the black oak ecu and servo motor throttle body to shut down the fun through very complex torque limiting programming. they can calculate through the various load and temp inputs when the motor is making more torque than the set limit and pull out timing to shut down the fun. to meet emissions they also have set rates of throttle opening and closing as well.

Turbo falcons also have issues with oil temp running too high when driven too hard and will shut down into limp modes etc.

Pull the centre muffler out of a new turbo falcon and see how the increased boost sends the ecu into protection and the vehicle actually makes less power than stock.

Thankfully the LS1 edit software for commodores has been around for a while so you can set them up nicely, and now a few companies have found varoius ways around fords ecus as well with interceptor ecus or the capa flash tuner. so there is plenty of fun to be had, just not with the standard ecus.

The dealers wont plug in diagnostic gear unless there is a fault light up, or a fleet wide re-flash (very rare). it slows down the oil change

And most ecus will re-set and clear codes by just either disconnecting the battery or pulling the ecu fuseable link overnight, if you want to do it at home and save the dealer fees.