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suspension lifts and articulation
Moderators: toaddog, TWISTY, V8Patrol, Moderators
suspension lifts and articulation
Hi! Does fitting a lifted suspension kit increase your articulation? Or does it just shift your zero position and top and bottom limits? Or shift your zero position and leave your top and bottom limits? Are the answers the same for the independent and live suspension?
Lifted suspension really gives the tyres more room before they contact the body or other parts when articulating.
Aftermarket kits can increase flex but it comes down to the setup you are going to use.
Eg - If you go too stiff, you may have less flex than you started with.
On a solid axel, lifted springs will allow the axel to travel up further than before (if other limiting components are changed also) if the bumpstops are left at the same position.
Lifting independant suspension moves the point which the suspension sits upwards, so you lose downtravel, but gain more uptravel. This is why winding up torsion bars for example can be very bad for articulation.
Aftermarket kits can increase flex but it comes down to the setup you are going to use.
Eg - If you go too stiff, you may have less flex than you started with.
On a solid axel, lifted springs will allow the axel to travel up further than before (if other limiting components are changed also) if the bumpstops are left at the same position.
Lifting independant suspension moves the point which the suspension sits upwards, so you lose downtravel, but gain more uptravel. This is why winding up torsion bars for example can be very bad for articulation.
Last edited by HotFourOk on Wed May 30, 2007 9:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
[quote="RockyF70 - Coming out of the closet"]i'd be rushing out and buying an IFS rocky[/quote]
It may not help, it may even decrease it.
http://neuralfibre.com/paul/?p=89
I got the sh*ts with everyone saying what to put in, but no information about what is the limit at each stage. Crankycruiser seems to have figured this out to the extreme :)
Paul
http://neuralfibre.com/paul/?p=89
I got the sh*ts with everyone saying what to put in, but no information about what is the limit at each stage. Crankycruiser seems to have figured this out to the extreme :)
Paul
Lexus LX470 - hrrm Winter Tyres
Gone - Cruiser HZJ105 Turbo'd Locked & Lifted
Gone - 3L Surf
Gone - Cruiser HZJ105 Turbo'd Locked & Lifted
Gone - 3L Surf
That's exactly the sort of info I'm after, but for my 95 series prado. I guess I'll have to do those sorts of tests myself (i.e. disconnecting shocks etc and finding up and down limits).me3@neuralfibre.com wrote:It may not help, it may even decrease it.
http://neuralfibre.com/paul/?p=89
I got the sh*ts with everyone saying what to put in, but no information about what is the limit at each stage. Crankycruiser seems to have figured this out to the extreme
Paul
Any tips for front IFS flex? I've done the 'wind up torsion bars' thing on a Surf before, and yep, as HotFourOk says, no droop left! Does the drivetrain limit travel on IFS, or does the drivetrain suffer from higher-than-standard amounts of fles?
Oh, another thing... I've never bought shocks before, are they usually specified with max and min lengths?
suspension design is carried out with lots of parameters in mind, shock length and spring length being only one of them.
On 99% of IFS designs, there is a compression and rebound bumpstop that is designed to protect the drivetrain (CV's) and stop the springs pulling the shocks apart etc.
There are some threads around that will talk about removing or shaving the rebound stops to increase droop.
Do this at your peril - I imagine that prado CV's aren't cheap. and the rebound rubbers are there for a reason.
Removing the shocks from your prado will resutll in no gain in the front. In the rear, the shocks are a limiting factor in axle movement but then spring design comes into it, and then additionally geometry, so combinations need to be matched.
Shocks are not sold on comressed and extended lengths if the manufacturer/reseller has any regard for their product. They are sold based on application based on mounts, valving and length.
That means that for any application, the maximum length gain can only normally be about 50mm tops.
Beyond that point, bumpstops will have to e lowered to fit a shock with a longer compressed length.
*Rant on (and no offence for asking questions jungle surfer)*
It pi$$es me off massively that everyone with a socket set thinks they can get massive improvements in every aspect of their car by putting really long shocks on it (regardless of the application they were designed for) and that if a tyre can hang down below their bodywork and they can pose under their car it must be better than stock. Manufcaturers spend millions developing product only to have it murdered by someone with a spanner and a rancho catalogue.
*Ahhh, that feels better*
Steve.
On 99% of IFS designs, there is a compression and rebound bumpstop that is designed to protect the drivetrain (CV's) and stop the springs pulling the shocks apart etc.
There are some threads around that will talk about removing or shaving the rebound stops to increase droop.
Do this at your peril - I imagine that prado CV's aren't cheap. and the rebound rubbers are there for a reason.
Removing the shocks from your prado will resutll in no gain in the front. In the rear, the shocks are a limiting factor in axle movement but then spring design comes into it, and then additionally geometry, so combinations need to be matched.
Shocks are not sold on comressed and extended lengths if the manufacturer/reseller has any regard for their product. They are sold based on application based on mounts, valving and length.
That means that for any application, the maximum length gain can only normally be about 50mm tops.
Beyond that point, bumpstops will have to e lowered to fit a shock with a longer compressed length.
*Rant on (and no offence for asking questions jungle surfer)*
It pi$$es me off massively that everyone with a socket set thinks they can get massive improvements in every aspect of their car by putting really long shocks on it (regardless of the application they were designed for) and that if a tyre can hang down below their bodywork and they can pose under their car it must be better than stock. Manufcaturers spend millions developing product only to have it murdered by someone with a spanner and a rancho catalogue.
*Ahhh, that feels better*
Steve.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
also flex isn't the be all and end all of suspension. The suspension is there for a number of reasons with articulation one aspect of it. Super flexy rigs don't necessarily mean they will preform better than a vehicle with less flex. Lots of flex can still lead to situation s where all 4 wheels will be spinning for traction due to a decrease in contact pressure whilst a similar vehicle with a less flexy suspension may continue through the obstacle with one wheel in the air but more contact pressure on the others.
A suspension kit can also be used to increase ride comfort or load handling ability at the determent of articulation. It really comes down to what you want your suspension to do for you
A suspension kit can also be used to increase ride comfort or load handling ability at the determent of articulation. It really comes down to what you want your suspension to do for you
Ransom note = demand + collage
There was a pic somewhere on outers of a surf with impressive front articulation (impressive for IFS) - so it can be done.jungle_surfer wrote:That's exactly the sort of info I'm after, but for my 95 series prado. I guess I'll have to do those sorts of tests myself (i.e. disconnecting shocks etc and finding up and down limits).me3@neuralfibre.com wrote:It may not help, it may even decrease it.
http://neuralfibre.com/paul/?p=89
I got the sh*ts with everyone saying what to put in, but no information about what is the limit at each stage. Crankycruiser seems to have figured this out to the extreme :)
Paul
Any tips for front IFS flex? I've done the 'wind up torsion bars' thing on a Surf before, and yep, as HotFourOk says, no droop left! Does the drivetrain limit travel on IFS, or does the drivetrain suffer from higher-than-standard amounts of fles?
Oh, another thing... I've never bought shocks before, are they usually specified with max and min lengths?
Personally I would fill the Prado with fuel, disconnect the front swaybar and drive it into a drainage ditch to get it cross axled. With 2 wheels hanging, park it, get out, and get some photos and measurements. If the front is not touching the top stop on one side, and bottom on the other you have some thinking to do.
The rear is the same as mine, so you can repeat what I did to find the flex limits.
Once you ahve your measurements give Jamie a ring at GSA Wholesale Suspension in Brisbane, tell him what you want and that Paul said Gemini's make a lousy rally car. He'll give you good prices then.
Paul
Lexus LX470 - hrrm Winter Tyres
Gone - Cruiser HZJ105 Turbo'd Locked & Lifted
Gone - 3L Surf
Gone - Cruiser HZJ105 Turbo'd Locked & Lifted
Gone - 3L Surf
I've no doubt that Toyota can make a better Prado than I can, for general use. I want to mod it with a bit more of an emphasis on off-roading than what Toyota knows the average buyer would have - that's why people mod 4wd's! (But I'm sure you know that.) And yes, I'm pretty new to mechanics and modding, so I find myself getting on the internet and asking questions...Manufcaturers spend millions developing product only to have it murdered by someone with a spanner and a rancho catalogue.
Yeah, I thought CV's might be a limiting factor. I guess the idea is to keep them from getting into much-more-than-possible-on-a-stock-vehicle angles, right?Do this at your peril - I imagine that prado CV's aren't cheap. and the rebound rubbers are there for a reason.
Yep, I saw that photo of the surf somewhere, so I figured it's possible! Hopefully next week I'll make some time to do some measurements.There was a pic somewhere on outers of a surf with impressive front articulation (impressive for IFS) - so it can be done.
Yep, I saw that photo of the surf somewhere, so I figured it's possible! Hopefully next week I'll make some time to do some measurements.[/quote]There was a pic somewhere on outers of a surf with impressive front articulation (impressive for IFS) - so it can be done.
If its the red model in the rocks, it had all that flex because it wasnt running a front swaybar. Correct me if im wrong, but the prado runs the coilover front end as apposed to the surf torsion bar? You should be able to get the same results by not running a sway bar. Id suggest making up a disconnecting system, something fairly simple so it doesnt look blatantly obvious that it is there for that reason.
Unless you have big dollars to do all your own RnD and spend your time, an off the shelf suspension kit, bought from somewhere reputable will probably give you the best result.
Cheers,
Dan.
[i]1996 HDJ80R[/i]
Dan.
[i]1996 HDJ80R[/i]
perhaps twisty is a good person to ask...he can fit 40s under his surf....
sure having flex isn't going to get u far but its a start.....
i figure its better to get the flex then lockers etc depending how serious u wanted to go.....
just make sure u get articulation not lift....
i hate seein big arse luxs thinkin they cool coz there car sits 10m higher than everyone else, then u see its inverted shackles....useless
my lux as example...sits now prolly 2" higher than standard(on standard tyres) but can drive over a 44gallon drum. because of how we worked out the set up....
besy bet is to buy stage kits from superior,efs,tjm,atb etc they all got one
sure having flex isn't going to get u far but its a start.....
i figure its better to get the flex then lockers etc depending how serious u wanted to go.....
just make sure u get articulation not lift....
i hate seein big arse luxs thinkin they cool coz there car sits 10m higher than everyone else, then u see its inverted shackles....useless
my lux as example...sits now prolly 2" higher than standard(on standard tyres) but can drive over a 44gallon drum. because of how we worked out the set up....
besy bet is to buy stage kits from superior,efs,tjm,atb etc they all got one
Team Rock Solid -M.Flynn
rolux: Out of money and looking for sponsers
If there's a will, there's a four wheel drivers way.
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/viewtopic.php?t=78397
rolux: Out of money and looking for sponsers
If there's a will, there's a four wheel drivers way.
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/viewtopic.php?t=78397
The Surfs have lots of aftermarket kits available for big lifts, whereas a lot of oither makes do not.
In 4x4Monthly for example they have like 4" lift kits for IFS Luxs etc, but with my Rocky, you canot buy anything off the shelf.
To gain a fair bit of lift like this, you need to really have new A-Arms, space the diff down, new balljoints or ball joint spacers, new crossmember ect etc... there is a lot of work gone into it, not just removing the swaybar.
In 4x4Monthly for example they have like 4" lift kits for IFS Luxs etc, but with my Rocky, you canot buy anything off the shelf.
To gain a fair bit of lift like this, you need to really have new A-Arms, space the diff down, new balljoints or ball joint spacers, new crossmember ect etc... there is a lot of work gone into it, not just removing the swaybar.
[quote="RockyF70 - Coming out of the closet"]i'd be rushing out and buying an IFS rocky[/quote]
As mentioned earlier, front IFS flex can be improved by removing the front swaybar. I have done this on my last 4x4 trip and parked the truck in a "cross-axled" position over a ditch to test out the articulation and I did receive a noticeable improvement. Heres a pic -
Not only that, I feel like the truck drives better and smoother on the road - some may disagree.
I dont know what else can be done to improve front IFS flex, other than getting longer driveshafts put in, though you would have to modify the hubs as well and increase the front track width of the truck. Are there any kits in the states that do this?
Sure would be pricey ......
P.S can someone post a pic of that Red Surf Flexing as mentioned earlier?
Not only that, I feel like the truck drives better and smoother on the road - some may disagree.
I dont know what else can be done to improve front IFS flex, other than getting longer driveshafts put in, though you would have to modify the hubs as well and increase the front track width of the truck. Are there any kits in the states that do this?
Sure would be pricey ......
P.S can someone post a pic of that Red Surf Flexing as mentioned earlier?
Is that all that he had done to hius front suspension? Just the sway bar removal, because that looks like a huge drop on the right hand side -
only down side in a situation like that is that the bash plate is very close to the rocks, whereas if it was a front live axle, it would have kept it off the rocks abit better.
only down side in a situation like that is that the bash plate is very close to the rocks, whereas if it was a front live axle, it would have kept it off the rocks abit better.
Yep, that's the one. So that's sniper, eh? Could that flex be achieved just by swapping torsion bars and disconnecting the swaybar (and maybe longer shocks)???That's the pic. My Surf NEVER flexed like that with the front swaybar off. My bet is much softer torsion bars.
It looks a long long way from standard droop!
Yep, that car has custom arms for sure.
In relation to the torsion bar front end-
Downey offered a 13" travel IFS kit (and may still do) that didn't significantly increase track width, but did use uni joints on one end of the axles so high speed use with the hubs locked was ruled out.
Total Chaos offer a kit with big travel but it pushes track width out a heap. I don't think this 4Runner is running this kit. Petersens fitted this stiff to "clampy" a couple of years ago and it looked pretty good.
Steve.
In relation to the torsion bar front end-
Downey offered a 13" travel IFS kit (and may still do) that didn't significantly increase track width, but did use uni joints on one end of the axles so high speed use with the hubs locked was ruled out.
Total Chaos offer a kit with big travel but it pushes track width out a heap. I don't think this 4Runner is running this kit. Petersens fitted this stiff to "clampy" a couple of years ago and it looked pretty good.
Steve.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
As far as the front end of your Prado goes. It runs the same coild spring/strut front suspension as the 3rd generation 4Runner (1996-2002) in the U.S. Not knocking anyone, but their seems to be a lot of "suggestions" in regard to a suspension set up a Prado does not have, yes it has IFS, but it certainly isn't the same as the typical torsion bar set up most are accustomed to
So dig around on some U.S. sites regarding the 96-02 4Runner for any info, but take it all with a grain of salt. They seem to like their big lifts and try to get the front ends to move quite well, but the CV and balljoint angles are very questionable as far as reliability goes.
Beyond an off the shelf 2" kit for the front end, what 'taresk' has done (can be found on 4wdmonthly forum) to the front end of his Prado is about as far as i think someone should go. His thread on his Prado can be found here
http://www.4wdmonthly.com.au/forum/show ... hp?t=29022
As for the back end. If you're going to go the route of measuring your own shocks for length, do it once and get it right if your going to still use the original upper mounts. It's a bastard of a job to replace them, especially the rear left.
So dig around on some U.S. sites regarding the 96-02 4Runner for any info, but take it all with a grain of salt. They seem to like their big lifts and try to get the front ends to move quite well, but the CV and balljoint angles are very questionable as far as reliability goes.
Beyond an off the shelf 2" kit for the front end, what 'taresk' has done (can be found on 4wdmonthly forum) to the front end of his Prado is about as far as i think someone should go. His thread on his Prado can be found here
http://www.4wdmonthly.com.au/forum/show ... hp?t=29022
As for the back end. If you're going to go the route of measuring your own shocks for length, do it once and get it right if your going to still use the original upper mounts. It's a bastard of a job to replace them, especially the rear left.
If God did not intend for us to eat animals, then why did he make them out of meat?
I'm pretty sure Rock Monkey is correct.
Think this is the kit the red runner (in the US) has fitted, if not it is one very similar that increases the front track.
http://www.chaosfab.com/95200.html
Think this is the kit the red runner (in the US) has fitted, if not it is one very similar that increases the front track.
http://www.chaosfab.com/95200.html
91' Hilux Surf with the usual mods & a few different ones ....
Coil SAS by www.budscustoms.com.au
Coil SAS by www.budscustoms.com.au
The biggest limiting factor in the Prado is the upper ball joint, it binds before full droop is achieved, replace it with a heim joint, and get an extended travel coilover, and you're set 
For the record, with the standard suspension, removing the swaybar on a 95 series Prado won't improve the articulation, but it will work better being fully independant.
Regarding the CV angles, to get full travel safely with the heim joints, you have to space the front diff down a bit, so that the lowest point of travel is still within the CV's optimum range, mine was dropped 1" (no loss of clearance).
Anything for a 96-02 4Runner should fit, 02-Current for 120 series Prado's, nearly everthing I bought from the US is for that model. (I am Taresk from 4WD Monthly by the way).
For the record, with the standard suspension, removing the swaybar on a 95 series Prado won't improve the articulation, but it will work better being fully independant.
Regarding the CV angles, to get full travel safely with the heim joints, you have to space the front diff down a bit, so that the lowest point of travel is still within the CV's optimum range, mine was dropped 1" (no loss of clearance).
Anything for a 96-02 4Runner should fit, 02-Current for 120 series Prado's, nearly everthing I bought from the US is for that model. (I am Taresk from 4WD Monthly by the way).
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