quality diesel oil filters

[jonamaphone1]

was talkin to an interstate truckie the otherday and he was sayin that one secret to diesel engine longevity was a quality oil filter....

what are the differences?
who makes the best?
ive got a toyota, is it best to just get genuine?

was he just havin me on?

[joel HJ60]

He wasn't havng you on. Cut some open and have a look. I know the genuines are usually pretty good, but very pricey.

[pongo]

would be more imprtant to due regualar oil changes using great oil and not whats on special that day.

[phippsy]

Most of our fleet uses Fleetguard filters. Haven't had any fail to my knowledge and we cover about 60,000km per day.

[me3@neuralfibre.com]

I'm working on this atm. Will post pics ina couple of months.

a) doing oil analysis
b) cutting them apart to see construction and resolve some rumours
c) about to buy an external bypass filter.

As far as I can figure between the myths and claims.

Full flow (any brand) to catch the lumps
Bypass filter to take out the soot (Z334A is a combo of these)

Toyota OEM is *supposed* to have a better bypass stage, I'l confirm when it comes off in 5000km.

External bypass from Baldwin or similar should take out much more crap.

Oil analysis on my 1HZ showed extended drains possible. More info is still coming.

I'll blog results and conclusions and post here when done. Give me a couple of months for next change and analysis results to come in.

The real real answer to longevity is constant running. Taxi's are not oil fastidious and the drivers dont look after them, but over 1,000,000km from an engine is not uncommon. I know of diesels that don't last 250,000km. Short trips are bad news. Theroies as to why, but thats another discussion.

Thanx
Paul

[phippsy]

Our Scania prime movers all have an oil spinner. They seem to be a great thing as the standard oil filter is smaller than a coke can. Don;t know much about them yet although I'm told early 60 series toyota's had them on the 2H motor.

[me3@neuralfibre.com]

Our Scania prime movers all have an oil spinner. They seem to be a great thing as the standard oil filter is smaller than a coke can. Don;t know much about them yet although I'm told early 60 series toyota's had them on the 2H motor.

Centrifugal filter, Rovers used ot have them, then they disspeared. Honda bikes had them too (some only them, no filter).

All reports worked very very well, but not common. Dunno why.

Paul

[pantheas18_hj47]

there is a guy by the handle of flywest who is doing alot of this stuff on 4wdmonthly forum and i think the other forum is bob the oil huy or something. Alot of the centrifugal stuff was investigated on fiat crayboat diesels. when i have time i will try to find the links.

[dumbdunce]

Our Scania prime movers all have an oil spinner. They seem to be a great thing as the standard oil filter is smaller than a coke can. Don;t know much about them yet although I'm told early 60 series toyota's had them on the 2H motor.

the canister filter on the scania is only for the turbo, the centrifuge is the oil filter for the rest of the engine.

I use toyota oil filters on my 1HD-FT, I have cut open a toyota and a couple of afermarket items and there is a LOT more media in the toyota, and it's probably better quality.

[jonamaphone1]

will be keen to hear the results from your tests paul

[KaMo]

Have cleaned a few centrifugal filters. Maintenance intervals on the engines are about 500hrs if i remember correctly. The oil would be passed through a completely independant lube oil purifier approximately every 4th day. However, at maintenance interval when cleaning centrifugal filters there would still be between 5-10mm of crap accumulated around the bowl. Do a pretty good job if you ask me.

[ISUZUROVER]

Our Scania prime movers all have an oil spinner. They seem to be a great thing as the standard oil filter is smaller than a coke can. Don;t know much about them yet although I'm told early 60 series toyota's had them on the 2H motor.

Centrifugal filter, Rovers used ot have them, then they disspeared. Honda bikes had them too (some only them, no filter).

All reports worked very very well, but not common. Dunno why.

Paul

Actually they are just called an oil-centrifuge by the manufacturers. The one on the TD5 is made by MANN+HUMMEL. Fleetgard (now called Cummins Filtration) also make one. They work very well and are definitely still available.

AFAIK you SHOULD be able to buy new kits from MANN+HUMMEL Australia.

Rick130 has done a lot of research on oil filters. As mentioned though, full-flow filters really just keep the rocks out - 50% efficiency at 25 microns if you are really lucky. Bypass centrifuges can even remove particles as small as 0.050 microns (soot) - these small particles can damage your engine even though they are much smaller than the smallest tolerance. Many trucking companies change their oil when the soot content reaches 3%. With good synthetic oils, soot is the only reason oil needs changing.

If you buy Donaldson, Fleetgard, or MANN+HUMMEL filters, you will be getting OEM or better than OEM quality (90% of OEM filters are made by one of these 3 companies).

[rojak]

What cost for OEM filters or similar as valvoline or ryco cost me around $25.

[KiwiBacon]

Hi Ben

What sort of filtration do you get from the factory bypass on the Isuzu 4BD's?
I'm using a Ryco Z155X
http://www.rycofilters.com.au/catalogue ... part/Z155X

[Lux_89]

i use a donaldson filter on mine with caterpillar oil on my 2.8, uses a bit but its in really good nick

[zagan]

was talkin to an interstate truckie the otherday and he was sayin that one secret to diesel engine longevity was a quality oil filter....

what are the differences?
who makes the best?
ive got a toyota, is it best to just get genuine?

was he just havin me on?

Probably more saying get yourself a by-pass filter, Australia doesn't seem to stock any of this stuff well not at autobarn etc.

The USA has FASS and another brand something 2000.

in the FASS you can get by-pass filter and water/air remover + oil by-pass filter, the other brand sort of the same deal.

Only problem is once you have the filter and fit it, you'll need filters as well and going to the US all the time isn't going to be cheap.

In Ausratali though there is an add for Kleenoil, but not website only an address and phone number.

These filters will increase your oil change time.

As most diesel engines run a by-pass filter simply meaning it lets dirty oil to run through to the motor once the oil is up to the right pressure it'll start to filter.

The reason why this is done well dirty oil is better than no oil.

[me3@neuralfibre.com]

was talkin to an interstate truckie the otherday and he was sayin that one secret to diesel engine longevity was a quality oil filter....

what are the differences?
who makes the best?
ive got a toyota, is it best to just get genuine?

was he just havin me on?

Probably more saying get yourself a by-pass filter, Australia doesn't seem to stock any of this stuff well not at autobarn etc.

The USA has FASS and another brand something 2000.

in the FASS you can get by-pass filter and water/air remover + oil by-pass filter, the other brand sort of the same deal.

Only problem is once you have the filter and fit it, you'll need filters as well and going to the US all the time isn't going to be cheap.

In Ausratali though there is an add for Kleenoil, but not website only an address and phone number.

These filters will increase your oil change time.

As most diesel engines run a by-pass filter simply meaning it lets dirty oil to run through to the motor once the oil is up to the right pressure it'll start to filter.

The reason why this is done well dirty oil is better than no oil.

I found some external bypass filters in Aus, plus mounts. I'll post details when I get it all sorted and restart the thread. The factory bypass filter runs all the time and works, it's just small. (Z334A - 1HZ and many toyota)

Paul

[Rilux]

Mate, just change your oil every 5000. I use Ryco filters, i'm at 300,000k. You get everyone bagging on Ryco filters, but they cost $3 each, and they seem to work.

If you are crazy about filters etc. just buy a Donaldson or a Fleetguard. Personally, I prefer Fleetguard, because every single Fleetguard filter i've used has been awesome. I've done a few oil changes too.

Or you could buy the incredibly overpriced genuine filter. But thats a waste of money.

[jonamaphone1]

who supplies donaldson and/or fleetgaurd?

[KiwiBacon]

Mate, just change your oil every 5000.

Why?
Some newer engines with good filtration systems can do 25,000km changes. That's why we're discussing them.

[Tiny]

Mate, just change your oil every 5000.

Why?
Some newer engines with good filtration systems can do 25,000km changes. That's why we're discussing them.

forget the newer engines, think about say a 1hz or td42 running a gas injection system, the hype apart from power, torque and economy is the increased burn rate of the fuel say 65% to 90%?? reduces the amount of contaminants in the oil.

New engines with all the good stuff have filters designed for the service intervals as is the recommended oil which would presumably be a synthetic and or mix.

the 1hz on the other hand will still be using the same filtration system, and the owner presumably using oils as recommended by Toyota or the oil company

SO

What are peoples opinions on what oil to run in a diesel / gas vehicle based on the recommended oil probably decomposing by the time your service interval is up and what filtration / additional filtration would be recommended.

btw I dont own a td42 anymore and the 73 in now a 6.2l chev which I have no intention of fitting gas to, just interested in an informed discussion:)

[Shadow]

As most diesel engines run a by-pass filter simply meaning it lets dirty oil to run through to the motor once the oil is up to the right pressure it'll start to filter.

The reason why this is done well dirty oil is better than no oil.

Almost all engines today run a full flow filter with a bypass simply because you have a mechanical oil pump driven by the crank, running on an engine that varies its RPM from 500 through to 3K (6k+ in a petrol).

So it will flow 6 times as much oil at redline (12 times for a petrol), but you dont not need much more oil at redline than you do at idle. Maybe double, certainly not 6-12 times.

There is ofcourse a bypass for the filter itself, this is done either in the spin-on filter itself, or in the motor. For a 2H engine it is done in the engine. There is a filter bypass, and then the main bypass.

The filter bypass would only operate when there is too much of a restriction in the filter, a blockage, or something, and the main bypass only operates when the pump is creating too much pressure.

neither of which "normally" occurs in startup.

The only possible way you would get dirty oil delivered to your engine at startup, is a blocked oil filter.

[KiwiBacon]

Mate, just change your oil every 5000.

Why?
Some newer engines with good filtration systems can do 25,000km changes. That's why we're discussing them.

forget the newer engines, think about say a 1hz or td42 running a gas injection system, the hype apart from power, torque and economy is the increased burn rate of the fuel say 65% to 90%?? reduces the amount of contaminants in the oil.

I don't believe the claims of increased burn efficiency. I haven't heard it from any source other than people selling gas fumigation systems.
If a diesel engine did only burn 65% of the fuel then it'd be spewing clouds of black smoke.
Gas fumigation is simply more fuel.

[dumbdunce]

Gas fumigation is simply more fuel.

you need to do some more research. if it was as simple as more fuel, you could get the same result just by cranking up the diesel. even the cleanest diesel exhaust has high particulates which are a result of incomplete combustion. it is my understading that there is some sort of catalyst reaction.

[me3@neuralfibre.com]

As most diesel engines run a by-pass filter simply meaning it lets dirty oil to run through to the motor once the oil is up to the right pressure it'll start to filter.

The reason why this is done well dirty oil is better than no oil.

Almost all engines today run a full flow filter with a bypass simply because you have a mechanical oil pump driven by the crank, running on an engine that varies its RPM from 500 through to 3K (6k+ in a petrol).

So it will flow 6 times as much oil at redline (12 times for a petrol), but you dont not need much more oil at redline than you do at idle. Maybe double, certainly not 6-12 times.

There is ofcourse a bypass for the filter itself, this is done either in the spin-on filter itself, or in the motor. For a 2H engine it is done in the engine. There is a filter bypass, and then the main bypass.

The filter bypass would only operate when there is too much of a restriction in the filter, a blockage, or something, and the main bypass only operates when the pump is creating too much pressure.

neither of which "normally" occurs in startup.

The only possible way you would get dirty oil delivered to your engine at startup, is a blocked oil filter.

I think you are confused with the terminology.

A BYPASS filter is not a pressur activated bypass (that I have seen). They are a Partial Flow filter that bypasses the normal oil circuit under all operaing conditions. The ful flow keeps the lumpy bits out of the bearings. The BYPASS filter runs all the time on about 10% of the oil flow so over a few mintues it "scrubs" all the oil.

This is not the pressure bypass built into the pump that deals with the flow varience you are describing.

Trucks with multiple oil canisters are generally a combination of full and bypass (partial flow) filters.
Z334A is a combo filter are are many others.

The material is too fine to be a full flow filter, it wouldn't pass enough oil to keep the engine lubricated.

You can buy external ones to add, that lets you get cleaner oil and have les frequent filter changes. Mine is a 1HZ and the 5000 and 10,000 checks on Penrite HPR50 Diesel were both a pass. You can extended drain these engines. I believe HDJ105 played with this before swapping to a different motor.

I'lll do a full post in a few months with results and updates. I don't do enough KM's to knock off 5000/wk. Have Castrol looking for the last analysis atm - they lost it.

Paul

[me3@neuralfibre.com]

Gas fumigation is simply more fuel.

you need to do some more research. if it was as simple as more fuel, you could get the same result just by cranking up the diesel. even the cleanest diesel exhaust has high particulates which are a result of incomplete combustion. it is my understading that there is some sort of catalyst reaction.

This i sheading off topic, but

Stoichiometric (complete combustion of fuel and oxygen) is "ideal"
Physical constraints prevent this being practical in engines. Crevices, velocites and non homogenous mixtures mostly the reason why.
Slightly lean burns sent combustion temps too high for most materials and the system becomes prevalent to knock.
Very lean burns are cool again - this is a diesel.

A diesel at stoichiometric will blow heaps of black smoke. Event though the mist is fine, it's not fine enough. Diesels have to have excess oxygen and quite a bit of it to burn clean. Therefore you are limited in the amount of fuel you can pump in at WOT. It's a limitaton of the mixing, injector design and time available.

LPG at low throttle positions is more fuel, nothing else.

LPG at WOT is a burn enhancer, it lets you turn the wick up and use more of the avaialbe oxygen without producing smoke. It's not catalysing the mix (it's lost, catalysts are not consumed). It's simply spreading the fire and gases more effeively ensuring complete combustion takes place.

LPG is very high octane (hard to detonate) so the compression and temps shouldn't ignite it. The diesel ignites first, triggers the LPG, the two burnnig together can use more of the avaialable oxygen. This gives more power and can allow the fueling to be increased due to the more complete burn.

I read all this on one of the manufacturers sites a while ago, if I find the URL I'lll post it.

Paul

[dumbdunce]

Gas fumigation is simply more fuel.

you need to do some more research. if it was as simple as more fuel, you could get the same result just by cranking up the diesel. even the cleanest diesel exhaust has high particulates which are a result of incomplete combustion. it is my understading that there is some sort of catalyst reaction.

This i sheading off topic, but

Stoichiometric (complete combustion of fuel and oxygen) is "ideal"
Physical constraints prevent this being practical in engines. Crevices, velocites and non homogenous mixtures mostly the reason why.
Slightly lean burns sent combustion temps too high for most materials and the system becomes prevalent to knock.
Very lean burns are cool again - this is a diesel.

A diesel at stoichiometric will blow heaps of black smoke. Event though the mist is fine, it's not fine enough. Diesels have to have excess oxygen and quite a bit of it to burn clean. Therefore you are limited in the amount of fuel you can pump in at WOT. It's a limitaton of the mixing, injector design and time available.

LPG at low throttle positions is more fuel, nothing else.

LPG at WOT is a burn enhancer, it lets you turn the wick up and use more of the avaialbe oxygen without producing smoke. It's not catalysing the mix (it's lost, catalysts are not consumed). It's simply spreading the fire and gases more effeively ensuring complete combustion takes place.

LPG is very high octane (hard to detonate) so the compression and temps shouldn't ignite it. The diesel ignites first, triggers the LPG, the two burnnig together can use more of the avaialable oxygen. This gives more power and can allow the fueling to be increased due to the more complete burn.

I read all this on one of the manufacturers sites a while ago, if I find the URL I'lll post it.

Paul

I'll buy some of that.

re catalyst, just because it is eventually consumed does not mean it can't have a catalyzing effect at some stage in the combustion process.

look forward to reafing that site if you can find it.

I haven't done a lot of reaseach on it, I think direct injection + turbo burns enough of the fuel to make a diesel economical and remain simple. I think having to fill up with two types of fuel is a bit heaux.

[KiwiBacon]

LPG is very high octane (hard to detonate) so the compression and temps shouldn't ignite it.l

Actually the autoignition temps of LPG are right around pre-injection temps of a diesel engine.

LPG autoignition temp is 430 deg C.
Source, BOC Gases MSDS
https://pgw100.portal.gases.boc.com/...afety/0028.pdf

An engine at 20:1 compression with 50 deg inlet temp will reach approx 490 deg C without the addition of fuel.

T2/T1 = Rp^((1.4-1)/1.4))
Rp = compression ratio (20)
T2/T1 = 2.35
T1 = 273+50 = 323 deg K
T2 = 2.35 * 323K
T2 = 760 deg K
T2 = 487 deg C.

Add more boost or higher compression and you're pushing that temp much higher.

[KiwiBacon]

Gas fumigation is simply more fuel.

you need to do some more research. if it was as simple as more fuel, you could get the same result just by cranking up the diesel. even the cleanest diesel exhaust has high particulates which are a result of incomplete combustion. it is my understading that there is some sort of catalyst reaction.

As already mentioned.
A catalyst is something that remains unaltered at the end. LPG is burnt, releasing the same amount of heat as your backyard BBQ can from the same fuel.
Anyone who calls LPG a catalyst is well worth ignoring.

The difference between diesel and lpg as fuel is the hydrogen content. LPG has much less carbon so doesn't show as black soot when reaching the limits of the fuel that can be burnt.

The cleanest diesels don't have high particulates. The latest engines exhaust meets the white hanky test.

[me3@neuralfibre.com]

Gas fumigation is simply more fuel.

you need to do some more research. if it was as simple as more fuel, you could get the same result just by cranking up the diesel. even the cleanest diesel exhaust has high particulates which are a result of incomplete combustion. it is my understading that there is some sort of catalyst reaction.

As already mentioned.
A catalyst is something that remains unaltered at the end. LPG is burnt, releasing the same amount of heat as your backyard BBQ can from the same fuel.
Anyone who calls LPG a catalyst is well worth ignoring.

The difference between diesel and lpg as fuel is the hydrogen content. LPG has much less carbon so doesn't show as black soot when reaching the limits of the fuel that can be burnt.

The cleanest diesels don't have high particulates. The latest engines exhaust meets the white hanky test.

This is prob a seperate thread, but part of the reason for that lack of soot is careful control of fueling, and partly from particulate filters. LPG (from the googling I read 6mths ago) lets you turn the fueling up further without producing soot.

I'll stop now, google for more info, although it did take some finding I remember, most sites listed the standard dribble. I should try selling them some magic beans for their cow.

Paul

Paul