Seems like a strange thing to ask, but one day in the future I want to SAS my vitara. I was looking at using a vitara rear diff head (if it could be used to go frontwards) so that I have a lot of clearance under the diff head (as apposed to using something like hilux diffs) and then have maybe hilux or similar axle tubes with knuckles and brakes etc so that i maintain standard width. I was thinking of doing this to have more diff clearance than a SAS'd vitara with lets say hilux's. Tell me if im a total retard and should just put hilux's in front and rear becuase it would be easier? How hard would it be to adapt the hiluxs etc. This will still be a road going vehicle.
Regards
James
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Vitara rear diff, can it be used frontwards?
No, The diff won't spin backwards. It will be fine.
The strength is reduced in relation to the same diff in the rear, but the front diff never has to work as hard, so it won't be a problem. Remember vitara, sierra (leaf) and lots of other cars run low pinion front ends.
However, does that make it a good idea? No, not in my opinion.
Measure up a vitara centre before you go further down this road. A vitara centre is not substantially smaller than a hilux centre, nor does it have a more useful spread of ratios. Vitara side gears are 27 spline, which is OK, but hilux/landcruiser can be readily built much stronger. (31 spline/chromo etc.
The task would involve lots and lots of work (which you might be able to do) and lots of machining axles and spline cutting, or broaching of side gears (which you likely wont)
A note though- hilux axles are too narrow unless you do the "IFS Hub" conversion which is not really ideal. A better candidate would be 70 series landcruiser, post 1991. This is when they went to the high pinion hilux centre. Team that up with a IFS hilux width rear axle and you should be laughing.
Just my thoughts. What you are planning is fine for a sierra (but still more work than it's worth, although that's not putting me off) by using sierra knuckles/spindles etc, but when you add the wrk to increase strength and width for the vitara it's not worth it IMHO.
Steve.
The strength is reduced in relation to the same diff in the rear, but the front diff never has to work as hard, so it won't be a problem. Remember vitara, sierra (leaf) and lots of other cars run low pinion front ends.
However, does that make it a good idea? No, not in my opinion.
Measure up a vitara centre before you go further down this road. A vitara centre is not substantially smaller than a hilux centre, nor does it have a more useful spread of ratios. Vitara side gears are 27 spline, which is OK, but hilux/landcruiser can be readily built much stronger. (31 spline/chromo etc.
The task would involve lots and lots of work (which you might be able to do) and lots of machining axles and spline cutting, or broaching of side gears (which you likely wont)
A note though- hilux axles are too narrow unless you do the "IFS Hub" conversion which is not really ideal. A better candidate would be 70 series landcruiser, post 1991. This is when they went to the high pinion hilux centre. Team that up with a IFS hilux width rear axle and you should be laughing.
Just my thoughts. What you are planning is fine for a sierra (but still more work than it's worth, although that's not putting me off) by using sierra knuckles/spindles etc, but when you add the wrk to increase strength and width for the vitara it's not worth it IMHO.
Steve.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
cheers gwagensteve.... I had a bit more of a think about it and I think Hilux's or similar front and rear will be better because as you said they have a wider range of diff ratio's, this is especially good becuase as you probably know vitara's don't have the lowest gearing in the world haha. Cheers for that. My last question is how hard will it be to adapt the D/Shafts to the lux diffs? Is it just a matter or re-drilling the lux pinion flange or getting a spacer/adapter machined up?
Just to pick holes in you gwagensteve
the gears will be on the coast side, not the drive side, so will spin backwards.No, The diff won't spin backwards
why not?unless you do the "IFS Hub" conversion which is not really ideal
If you're talking about the coil spring ones, then they are no wider than a hilux. I think they are actually just a bees dick narrower.A better candidate would be 70 series landcruiser, post 1991
Well, there's never been a front Dana 80 or front ford 9"(and these are frequently get used in front applications, and a know 60 and 70 series cruiser owners swap front and rear third members all the time... what have I got wrong?
Yes, I know the diff runs on the coast side, costing strength, but it won't spin backwards. I also know this because I own a car that spins it's front diff backwards (Gwagen) It uses a unique transfer case and a rear diff upside down.
I don't like the increase in scrub radius induced by the IFS front end unless it is teamed with IFS offset rims, which then negates the track width increase.
My preference for 70 is the more suitable steering geometry, high pinion front end, and here's the oil on WMS: Turns out I was (kinda) wrong. 60 series is more suitable but has a massively oversized front diff. I guess it looks like 80 series is the better option, or coil spring 79 series front end. I know A1's car came up a treat on 60 series diffs, if you can deal with the pumpkin size, or build a hybrid with 60 outers and a post 91 70 series centre.
Vitara WMS - 57.4" accroding to my information.
Toyota truck front axle:
55.5" wide, , '79-85 Toyota trucks and 4runners
63.5" wide, ) 90-97 FJ80 and FZJ80 Landcruisers
'86-95 IFS front end is about 58.5" wide
Toyota truck rear Axle:
55" wide, '79-85 trucks/4runners
58" wide, IFS trucks/4runners
Toyota FJ40 Land Cruiser:
front = ~56" wms - wms
rear = ~55.25" wms - wms
Toyota FJ60 and FJ62 Land Cruiser:
front: = ~58.75" wms - wms
rear: = ~58" wms - wms
Steve.
Yes, I know the diff runs on the coast side, costing strength, but it won't spin backwards. I also know this because I own a car that spins it's front diff backwards (Gwagen) It uses a unique transfer case and a rear diff upside down.
I don't like the increase in scrub radius induced by the IFS front end unless it is teamed with IFS offset rims, which then negates the track width increase.
My preference for 70 is the more suitable steering geometry, high pinion front end, and here's the oil on WMS: Turns out I was (kinda) wrong. 60 series is more suitable but has a massively oversized front diff. I guess it looks like 80 series is the better option, or coil spring 79 series front end. I know A1's car came up a treat on 60 series diffs, if you can deal with the pumpkin size, or build a hybrid with 60 outers and a post 91 70 series centre.
Vitara WMS - 57.4" accroding to my information.
Toyota truck front axle:
55.5" wide, , '79-85 Toyota trucks and 4runners
63.5" wide, ) 90-97 FJ80 and FZJ80 Landcruisers
'86-95 IFS front end is about 58.5" wide
Toyota truck rear Axle:
55" wide, '79-85 trucks/4runners
58" wide, IFS trucks/4runners
Toyota FJ40 Land Cruiser:
front = ~56" wms - wms
rear = ~55.25" wms - wms
Toyota FJ60 and FJ62 Land Cruiser:
front: = ~58.75" wms - wms
rear: = ~58" wms - wms
Steve.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
Hey Gwagen, I'm going for hilux diffs over a cruiser diff purely because it is unnecessary to have a diff that big (remember I'm only running a standard motor) I'm going for the hilux diff because I want as much clearance as possible under the diff (hilux is a hell of alot smaller than a cruiser). The hilux will be fine because I'm going to have to be pushing it really hard to actually break something like a CV (unless I'm running extremely big tyres which I wont be) I also want to keep the wheels in the guards as much as possible and with the hilux diffs and some nicely offset rims I should be able to do that.
Regards
James
Regards
James
I understand your concern about diff size, and accept that 60 series diffs in the front are far from ideal for that reason.
My concern about hilux is that they're over 2" narrower than a stock vitara. (and even with the IFS hub conversion, it's only .6" wider and will have scrub radius that will make fitting a big tyre with sensible overall height very hard.
Personally, looking at the widths, an 80 series front end is probably a good candidate. it's 6.3" wider than a stock narrow track vitara, has a hilux sized front centre, and comes already with crossover steering, high pinion housing, big brakes, radius arm and panhard mounts - you might even be able to use the coil buckets and shock mounts.
the increase in track sounds like a lot, but will allow rims with heaps of backspacing to be used, heavily reducing your scrub radius reducing the amount of cutting you need to do to run a big tyre.
I don't have a WMS figure for a later 70, if it's the same as a 60 series then 70 front and IFS hilux rear is a good option too (both hilux sized centres then.
Sorry if it seems like I am harping on this, but I don't think swapping in a NARROWER diff than stock or one that forces the use of offset rims to work is a good option.
Steve.
My concern about hilux is that they're over 2" narrower than a stock vitara. (and even with the IFS hub conversion, it's only .6" wider and will have scrub radius that will make fitting a big tyre with sensible overall height very hard.
Personally, looking at the widths, an 80 series front end is probably a good candidate. it's 6.3" wider than a stock narrow track vitara, has a hilux sized front centre, and comes already with crossover steering, high pinion housing, big brakes, radius arm and panhard mounts - you might even be able to use the coil buckets and shock mounts.
the increase in track sounds like a lot, but will allow rims with heaps of backspacing to be used, heavily reducing your scrub radius reducing the amount of cutting you need to do to run a big tyre.
I don't have a WMS figure for a later 70, if it's the same as a 60 series then 70 front and IFS hilux rear is a good option too (both hilux sized centres then.
Sorry if it seems like I am harping on this, but I don't think swapping in a NARROWER diff than stock or one that forces the use of offset rims to work is a good option.
Steve.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
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