spoa vs spua???

Post by **stumped** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 6:43 am

hey guys...

i'm sure this has been done before, but i'm wanting to get things straight in my head before i start doing any serious mods to my zook.

was hoping that ppl can put in their two cents worth with opinions and experience regarding the pros and cons of spoa vs spua with lift. things like articulation, flex, legality, cog, general handling on and off road, cost, hassle, problems, all that kinda thing. have read of a few ppl going back to spua, so the reasons for that would be good too...

cheers!

Post by **redzook** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:10 am

a few ppl goin back to spua? i only know of 1 an that is big steve?

Post by **bubs** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:51 am

just from the little bit i have read in the zook section, most do the spring over with out going wider at the same time

which causes a rig which doesn't like side hills

I am all for spring over when done with hilux axles

you get width, more weight down low, heaps stronger with better after market following :cool:

(i know there is a heap of products out there for zuk as well)

Post by **greg** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 9:33 am

redzook wrote:a few ppl goin back to spua? i only know of 1 an that is big steve?

LJ Extreem did it too

Post by **camskizook** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 10:17 am

A spring over done PROPERLY is the best combination for gaining height and wheel travel. I simply cannot understand all these problems people seem to be having with them. Ive never had handling problems or side slope issues. If done with stock springs and a hi-steer it will be fine.

Try a search as well because this topic is as done as the 'toyota' vs 'nissan' debate

Post by **OVERKILL ENG** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 10:18 am

This is going to be a touchy topic but my oppinion is that a sprinover done properly is better than sprung under. I guess look at the M&M plus our Zooks to see that.

Post by **greg** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 10:34 am

stumped wrote:i'm sure this has been done before, but i'm wanting to get things straight in my head before i start doing any serious mods to my zook.

Hey Stumped - how about giving us a run down on what you are building, what it will be used for, will it be a daily driver, how much you care about trying to keep the car legal (or will it be a trailer queen?)... etc...

That will help (at least myself) to understand what you want out of your car, and this may help to suggest the right path to take when building it up.

Cheers

Post by **redzook** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 11:30 am

greg have u actually owned a spoa car or just based yours facts on what ppl have said an what little drive time u may have had in a spoa car?

Post by **greg** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 11:42 am

redzook wrote:greg have u actually owned a spoa car or just based yours facts on what ppl have said an what little drive time u may have had in a spoa car?

No i haven't owned a spring over sierra. But i didn't think that i had said anything against them in this thread either...

(going to hide in the corner now)...

however, for the record, i've never been to england - but i still know that it is cold over there... and i've never been in a formula 1 car - but i know they are pretty fast...

You are right though - my thoughts on spoa cars are based upon LJ Extreem's, Big Steve's, Droopy Pete's and Luv_Mud's and how all of these cars perform over the same terrain that i am driving my car...

My opinion is also based upon watching videos (like Woodpecker and a few others) where I can see some other spring over vehicles performing, and also hearing what people say about their cars.

Post by **stockman** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 1:09 pm

overkill wrote:This is going to be a touchy topic but my oppinion is that a sprinover done properly is better than sprung under. I guess look at the M&M plus our Zooks to see that.

i think youre sam if so then i was just wondering if u sell diy weld on spring over kits as i live in tassie. and theres a lot of water in betweeen us ??? cheers

Post by **stumped** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 2:25 pm

Hey Stumped - how about giving us a run down on what you are building, what it will be used for, will it be a daily driver, how much you care about trying to keep the car legal (or will it be a trailer queen?)... etc...

will be a daily drive as i'm not rich enuf to have two cars :cry:

as for legality, because it's a daily driver i need to be able to keep it on the road. not too fussed 'bout legality if i'm not likely to be done for it tho, so long as it's safe.

i try and get out most weekends, some of the boys i go driving with have cruisers (4" lift, lockers etc), so would be nice to be able to keep up to some degree. only have a couple of grand to spend at the moment, but don't mind saving for a bit longer to make it worth while.

was considering climax drop-shackles... anyone had experience with them, are they worth doing?

Post by **bubs** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 2:31 pm

what state are you in?

Post by **Guy** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 2:50 pm

If your not concerned with legality and have a few mates that are somewhat competant with a grinder and a welder a home brew SPOA is actually not all that hard .. I can shoot you some pics of mine if you want .. you will need an "anti wrap" bar on the rear to keep axle wrap to a minimum.

As for reliability a SPOA can be quite reliable (I have put lots and lots of KMS on my setup used to drive it every day for 5 years as well as weekend warrior stuff) Handling has not been a problem (well for a softly spring, big tyred SWB vehicle).

If it's done right with low lift spring pads and flat leaf packs it will not look at all abnormal nor attract any more attention than any other lifted Zuk ..

As for other Pro's of a SPOA is a "smoother" proile under the vehicle as you dont have spring plates etc under the vehcile to hang you up. as well as having a few important bits up outa the way of mud etc.
I have not had any real stability issues with mine, I know others have but I belive that you must drive accordingly, a vehicle that has been lifted etc is going to be tippier than a non lifted truck.
Cons .. I guess like anything "custom" you will need to build a few bits as well as adapt parts to fit\work properly there is also the question of legality.

With a set of 31's a locker and some lower gears you will give your mates in the crusiers a run for their money for sure ..

To compare SPOA Vs SPUA you would have to compare two otherwise identical vehicles, including springs, spring rates shocks vehcile weight, distrubution of weight etc etc.

Post by **stumped** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 3:11 pm

what state are you in?

NSW, newcastle

Post by **stumped** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 3:20 pm

I can shoot you some pics of mine if you want ..

pics would be cool... do you want an email address? got a few mates that may be able to help out, but despite their keeness to wreck havoc on my zook they don't have a lot of experience, so i'm a lil wary

legality could be the big crunch, and cost perhaps. i think i'd need someone to to the install, so i'm guessing it'd cost a bit...

Post by **redzook** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 3:26 pm

greg wrote:
redzook wrote:greg have u actually owned a spoa car or just based yours facts on what ppl have said an what little drive time u may have had in a spoa car?

No i haven't owned a spring over sierra. But i didn't think that i had said anything against them in this thread either...

u are always sayin to people dont go spoa! spua is betta. u just didnt mention it in this thread yet so i thought id get in first

on another note

i have had mine sua an soa will neva be goin back sua ive mention reasons in other thread as why soa is betta so i wont do it here :roll:

Post by **redzook** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 3:30 pm

stumped wrote:
Hey Stumped - how about giving us a run down on what you are building, what it will be used for, will it be a daily driver, how much you care about trying to keep the car legal (or will it be a trailer queen?)... etc...

was considering climax drop-shackles... anyone had experience with them, are they worth doing?

camskizook has these maybe he can chime in?

Post by **Guy** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 3:39 pm

Basically any half competant welder can do it .. My spring pads were made from 2inch by 2 inch 3 or 4 wall mm box.. bout 6 inches long (helps with axle wrap) .. I used the base of a can of WD40 to mark out the size of the axle tube (very good start) and just made it a perfect fit with the 4 inch grinder., Basicaslly as you weld the pad on you weld a little wait a little (dont want to put to much heat in to the diff housing as it is possible to warp it apparently) you weld the front pads on exactly level with the old SPUA spring pads to ensure that your steering angles dont get screwed up...

It is entirely possible to go back to SPUA if you find you do not like it .. the other changes (shock mounts etc) will need to be modded for a bit of extra fles SPOA or SPUA.

Apart from longer shocks etc which you will need SPUA or SPOA you should not really need to spend anymore than about 40 or 50 in materials.

I can post a few pics tonight once I get home (pics on home PC not work PC .. )

Mon Nov 24, 2003 4:24 pm

SPOA done right is light years ahead of spua.

The problems i see are that people have a zook and get a small lift kit put in it plus a body lift so it already has about 4 inches of lift. Then they decide they want to go spoa but still wish to keep in the body lift and use the super stiff lift springs they already paid good $$$$ for. So after the spoa is done they end up with about 8 inches or more of lift and generally no widening of the wheel track. This equals a tippy pos.

Mine, Matts and Sams zooks are all SPOA, have the largest tyres by quite a few inches and are still lower, more stable and have more flex than most of the zooks on the board.

Post by **Guy** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 4:52 pm

I am loving mine more and more as the spring packs flatten out .. if I need more room for rubber .. I will cut of more metal

with my leaves ast they are now I have about a 4 or 5 inch lift and run 35's Ulitimately I would like about a 3 inch lift with completely flat spring packs (longer leaves than mr suzuki offer ... most likely shagged hilux springs .. I have a set of wagoneer springs as well that may get a look but they seem a bit tall for what I am wanting) ..

Post by **greg** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 5:01 pm

redzook wrote:u are always sayin to people dont go spoa! spua is betta. u just didnt mention it in this thread yet so i thought id get in first

on another note

i have had mine sua an soa will neva be goin back sua ive mention reasons in other thread as why soa is betta so i wont do it here

Surely not - you must be mistaking me for someone else. :oops:

Post by **camskizook** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 6:31 pm

redzook wrote:
stumped wrote:
Hey Stumped - how about giving us a run down on what you are building, what it will be used for, will it be a daily driver, how much you care about trying to keep the car legal (or will it be a trailer queen?)... etc...

was considering climax drop-shackles... anyone had experience with them, are they worth doing?

camskizook has these maybe he can chime in?

They are currrently off the vehicle as i am investigating dfferent springs.....

Post by **bazooked** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 7:50 pm

hey luvmud what axles r u runnin?

Post by **Guy** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 10:39 pm

Stuffed factory Suzuki ones ...

Post by **bubs** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 10:35 am

here is an excellant thread on building a zuk with lux axles

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthre ... genumber=1

except, use a bundera rear axle as it uses a hilux 8" diff but is offset perfect for your zuk

Post by **ZOOK60** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 7:46 pm

i just finished my second spring over over tthis week . My first one was a disarster i had 3" exstended shackles 3" body lift with a 5 1/2" spring over . When i welded the perches on i rotated the diffs wich is apparently a no no all with 31" tyres on a narrow track zook. I never managed to roll it off road the guy that bougt it did it for me . you gessed it it handled like a boat in would bump steer across two lanes and the brakes where anather story .
Now i got a wide track i used 50/75mm 5mm steel six inches long for the perches . I bought a 70mm hole saw and cut the perches out they fit like a glove no grinding required . The perches sit 5mm off the axle tube just enough to sit the king pin in the hole . I used i hilux brake line in the rear and swift lines in the front. I used the 3" drop pitman arm and z-link i got from big steve. im running standard tyres at the moment and at rides that close to stock its not funny it also not as bumpy. I gained four inches of lift its bareley even noticable i had cops behind me for about half an hour this arvo they didnt even look twice.
i definatly think spoa is the way to go if done properly i think the key is stock springs a proper sreering solution and dont drive it like a rice burner or your gonna get pulled over for shaw [/img]

Post by **camskizook** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 7:50 pm

You can rotate the rear diff to get your pinion angle ok, but rotating the front diff will throw your castor out terribly... but yeh its a good point tho...bad springover vs good springover is a world of difference

Post by **bigsteve** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 8:27 pm

Jesus Christ I am so sprung over this topic but I'll add my 2 cents anyhoo

<Inhale>
I was generally happy with my SPOA for a few reasons:
~ It was a cheap (about $850 Prof. fitted) lift to clear the 32's I had purchased
~ I never experienced any problems on road with bump steer, in fact with the rancho's turned up & the wider rubber it handled better than stock
~ It did give me heaps of clearance (Fitted Gregs 34's)
~ It was soft & flexed Ok

Some Reasons I was not happy with my spoa and inevitably decided to revert back SPUA are:
~ $800 worth of busted rancho's
~ Shagged Springs.
~ Sick of trying to drive rutted hills with a front tyre 4ft off the ground
<Exhale>

I realise that I could have rectified some of the issues I had by adding a track bar, rear bump stops & U bolt flip but I didn't wish to go this route.

I'm not out to say which is better of the two, there are ways to make both work, I personally dont care about clearace or panel work (My zuk wont have many panels when its finished) & for the type of driving I wanted to be doing I wanted it to be it to be super stable, low and wide this was mainly after seing LJEXTREME driving some pretty insane stuff. I dont plan on entering tuff truck or XRCC, I just want to drive over "that hard bit of XXX track" and finish of the day with a cold one and the satisfaction that I challenged myself & my vehicle.

My name is Steven, and I'm a zook-a-holic

Post by **OVERKILL ENG** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 6:33 am

camskizook wrote:You can rotate the rear diff to get your pinion angle ok, but rotating the front diff will throw your castor out terribly... but yeh its a good point tho...bad springover vs good springover is a world of difference

This all comes back to doing the job properly the diffs do have to be rotated to get all the angles correct so you do have to rotate the front diff but you MUST spin the knuckles back to keep the right castor angle. That in with conjuction of a high steer setup will make the car drive straight and have NO bumpsteer.
SAM

Post by **stumped** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 8:59 am

bigsteve wrote:I was generally happy with my SPOA for a few reasons:
~ It was a cheap (about $850 Prof. fitted) lift to clear the 32's I had purchased
~ I never experienced any problems on road with bump steer, in fact with the rancho's turned up & the wider rubber it handled better than stock
~ It did give me heaps of clearance (Fitted Gregs 34's)
~ It was soft & flexed Ok

was this $850 just using what you already had, or did it include springs/shocks? i'm assuming it was purely for the conversion? works out to be a decent price if you have springs that are alright, but mine are shagged

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spoa vs spua???

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