If you had a snapped crank pulley bolt would it be acceptable to heat the front of the crank with an oxy to the point where it cooled down coloured blue while inside the engine and vehicle(looks like it was cooled quickly with water)?
To add to this, would you even contemplate doing this before drilling the snapped bolt and atleast seating an ezi-out to make a guide thread for the ezi-out to be placed in after the crank cools down?
I will leave it at that for the moment, I have a couple more questions as well.
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Crank Question
Moderators: toaddog, TWISTY, V8Patrol, Moderators
Crank Question
Last edited by high n mighty on Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
[quote="fool_injected"]
I pity my brother when she is a teenager[/quote]
I pity my brother when she is a teenager[/quote]
Dont heat the crank, apart from tempering it you may damage the front main bearing & timing cover seal (if its in situ).
If the bolt is tight enough to snap then an Ezy out will most probably break in there as well for which you will need a diamond tip drill to get it out, way too much hassle.
Best just to drill the bolt out completely and using a helicoil to replace the thread. Make sure you keep the hole spot on centre though as you may have problems re mounting the crank pulley.
If you do go off centre, drill it far enough so whats left of the bolt can be picked out of there, usually some of the thread has to be drilled to do this, which doesnt matter as you are replacing it anyway with the coil. Then use the correct size drill for the helicoil & should self centre in the original hole.
Patience is the key, rip tear bust will see the crank buggered.
If the bolt is tight enough to snap then an Ezy out will most probably break in there as well for which you will need a diamond tip drill to get it out, way too much hassle.
Best just to drill the bolt out completely and using a helicoil to replace the thread. Make sure you keep the hole spot on centre though as you may have problems re mounting the crank pulley.
If you do go off centre, drill it far enough so whats left of the bolt can be picked out of there, usually some of the thread has to be drilled to do this, which doesnt matter as you are replacing it anyway with the coil. Then use the correct size drill for the helicoil & should self centre in the original hole.
Patience is the key, rip tear bust will see the crank buggered.
Don't ask me, ask them. I'm just runnin for my life myself.
Well they are all following you...
No they ain't, I'm just in front...............
Well they are all following you...
No they ain't, I'm just in front...............
Ahh, noi will say yes but not to the point it turns blue and in no way cool it down with water.....
i have done it a handfull of time to remove flywheels from mini motors(only way) and it has never done anything to the motor...
and last week this exact thing happened to a 1hdtfe at work and it had a easyout installed and then heated to remove the bolt..
i have done it a handfull of time to remove flywheels from mini motors(only way) and it has never done anything to the motor...
and last week this exact thing happened to a 1hdtfe at work and it had a easyout installed and then heated to remove the bolt..
Last edited by Thommo 73 on Sat Jan 05, 2008 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
1uzed and no home for it
2.8 diesel? Very common. Was the bolt cross threaded when installing it? If not i wouldnt heat the crank too much with an oxy. You only want to warm it up a little. Drill it and very softly try an ezy out(make sure its a good quality ezy out) after heating the end of the crank a little. If it doesnt come out easy then drill the entire bolt out. Dont snap the ezy out in it otherwise you will have a hell of a time drilling it centred. If its cross threaded then just drill it out first go. And fit a helicoil or similare thread replacement. Im not a fan of helicoils. I prefer recoils as they are a solid piece you screw in not just a thread but they also require you to drill the original hole out larger than a helicoil which sometimes is not suitable.
hit the bolt a coulpe of time with a hammer then easyout it if that dont work heat it up a little bit loosens the bolt a bit and even a got squirt of wd before will help.
The easyout was installed as a means of removing the bolt after it was heated then heating a little (as in you could hold the crank if you wanted to)and then removed.
by the sound of the way you wrote your msg you have allready done it??
and im getting there with the coils.
The easyout was installed as a means of removing the bolt after it was heated then heating a little (as in you could hold the crank if you wanted to)and then removed.
by the sound of the way you wrote your msg you have allready done it??
and im getting there with the coils.
Last edited by Thommo 73 on Sat Jan 05, 2008 10:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
1uzed and no home for it
How the fark do you fit the helicoil before the bolt is removed, as you need to oversize drill and tap the hole, Dunno what you're thinking a helicoil isThommo 73 wrote:hit the bolt a coulpe of time with a hammer then helicoil it if that dont work heat it up a little bit loosens the bolt a bit and even a got squirt of wd before will help.
The helicoil was installed as a means of removing the bolt after it was heated then heating a little (as in you could hold the crank if you wanted to)and then removed.
by the sound of the way you wrote your msg you have allready done it??
and im getting there with the coils.
Wanted: Car trailer or beaver tail truck, let me know what you got
How much if any is there of the broken bolt sticking out? If its flush or there is a tiny bit sticking out, then grind a similar sized bolt down into a point on one end, then carefully weld that onto the bolt, then remove it that way. Also if its tight, dont just reef on the spanner, work the bolt back and fourth while undoing. Dont use a nut either, you have to use a bolt, i know this from experience, in most cases nuts dont work unless the broken bit is already loose (to this day i cant work out why).
It's on a Rocky.
Now if the bolt had snapped but the key is found in the timing case with surface rust on it and no other marks. Plus the crank is nice and clean but the pulley is chewed out badly, vehicle pulled over as soon as noise was detected, hasn't been neglected or anything...
Would it be safe to assume the key had not been installed correctly allowing the pulley although still turning to whip around eventually stressing the bolt and shearing it?
It's Hot40k's rocky, I was showing him through a huge problem I had with my hiux that ended up in court. I'm trying to convince him to have this checked by an engineer instead of being screwed by the mechanics. They have heated the crank while installed in the vehicle, I'm sure Nick will post his pics today, I think they are taking him for a real rough ride.
Now if the bolt had snapped but the key is found in the timing case with surface rust on it and no other marks. Plus the crank is nice and clean but the pulley is chewed out badly, vehicle pulled over as soon as noise was detected, hasn't been neglected or anything...
Would it be safe to assume the key had not been installed correctly allowing the pulley although still turning to whip around eventually stressing the bolt and shearing it?
It's Hot40k's rocky, I was showing him through a huge problem I had with my hiux that ended up in court. I'm trying to convince him to have this checked by an engineer instead of being screwed by the mechanics. They have heated the crank while installed in the vehicle, I'm sure Nick will post his pics today, I think they are taking him for a real rough ride.
[quote="fool_injected"]
I pity my brother when she is a teenager[/quote]
I pity my brother when she is a teenager[/quote]
Yes, It's my Rocky.
I was on the highway, when my alternator lights came on and she started to overheat. This was then found to have occurred due to the crank pulley bolt snapping. (In turn losing drive to all fan belts)
The pulley is flogged out by around 0.5mm and is VERY sloppy on the crankshaft.
We then found the key, in its entirety, sitting in the bottom of the timing case, under the timing belt.
The belt is also damaged, and is only <9000km old.
Here are some pics, tell me what you think.
I was on the highway, when my alternator lights came on and she started to overheat. This was then found to have occurred due to the crank pulley bolt snapping. (In turn losing drive to all fan belts)
The pulley is flogged out by around 0.5mm and is VERY sloppy on the crankshaft.
We then found the key, in its entirety, sitting in the bottom of the timing case, under the timing belt.
The belt is also damaged, and is only <9000km old.
Here are some pics, tell me what you think.
[quote="RockyF70 - Coming out of the closet"]i'd be rushing out and buying an IFS rocky[/quote]
Bummer. I tend to agree with you.
If you think about it the key shouldnt be able to come out without removing the pulley all the way.So it might of been pushed out and thru when the pulley was put back on.
Have you tried a centre punch and tappin it around.
looks like youre in for some fun.
If you think about it the key shouldnt be able to come out without removing the pulley all the way.So it might of been pushed out and thru when the pulley was put back on.
Have you tried a centre punch and tappin it around.
looks like youre in for some fun.
[color=#FF4000][/color]89 rocky V6 2"efs adj/sway&panhard
It has been heated with an oxy also (You can see the colour difference between the first pic and the last), but the puley shows about 9000km of wear to support what you said RUFF.RUFF wrote:Your mechanic has a problem. If he is a good mechanic then he is going to sort it out for you. The Bluing on the crank is not from your mechanic heating it with an oxy. Its from the pully spinning on the crank. Its prob been doing it for the last 9000ks.
The pic of the pulley also shows where the material has deposited as it wore off, and it went a rusty colour.
What do I do?
[quote="RockyF70 - Coming out of the closet"]i'd be rushing out and buying an IFS rocky[/quote]
Have you had it back at the mechanic that did the work?HotFourOk wrote:It has been heated with an oxy also (You can see the colour difference between the first pic and the last), but the puley shows about 9000km of wear to support what you said RUFF.RUFF wrote:Your mechanic has a problem. If he is a good mechanic then he is going to sort it out for you. The Bluing on the crank is not from your mechanic heating it with an oxy. Its from the pully spinning on the crank. Its prob been doing it for the last 9000ks.
The pic of the pulley also shows where the material has deposited as it wore off, and it went a rusty colour.
What do I do?
Recoil do the wire coil like helicoils as well, I think what Tony in on about is a key sert. These look like a stud with an internal thread aswell n 4 pins on the circumfrance at 90 degrees to each other. These are the best think to use if you can fit them in the component, but I would not use one in a crank shaft.RUFF wrote:2.8 diesel? Very common. Was the bolt cross threaded when installing it? If not i wouldnt heat the crank too much with an oxy. You only want to warm it up a little. Drill it and very softly try an ezy out(make sure its a good quality ezy out) after heating the end of the crank a little. If it doesnt come out easy then drill the entire bolt out. Dont snap the ezy out in it otherwise you will have a hell of a time drilling it centred. If its cross threaded then just drill it out first go. And fit a helicoil or similare thread replacement. Im not a fan of helicoils. I prefer recoils as they are a solid piece you screw in not just a thread but they also require you to drill the original hole out larger than a helicoil which sometimes is not suitable.
i think your up for a new crank as your one is badly worn where the pulley sits if you refit a pulley back on there it will be to loose and probably come of again
'05 GU Patrol coil cab ST
6" lift
Tough dogs
Snake Racing drop arms
3rds Rear Arms
Twin ARB air lockers
37" trepadors
ARB bullbar
WARN winch
High flow turbo
3" mandrel bent exhaust
6" lift
Tough dogs
Snake Racing drop arms
3rds Rear Arms
Twin ARB air lockers
37" trepadors
ARB bullbar
WARN winch
High flow turbo
3" mandrel bent exhaust
I'll answer Ruff's question while answering yours. The mechanic heated it, I don't think they asked first either. The crank was heated while still installed in the engine. The thing I find stupid about heating the crank apart from doing it in the engine and looking like doing more damage is.... Why would they have not drilled it first and atleast seated and removed the ezi-out! They have no chance now I reckon.nottie wrote:excause me if i missed somethn but who pulled it apart and heated the crank if it has been heated with an oxy?
As I mentioned though I gave Nick my pile of CTTT paper work and I hope it convince him that he is in the right and pursue it. You guys are doing a good job of convincing me so hopefully even him.
I hate dodgey mechanics digging deeper holes while trying to get outta the shit!!!!!
So back to the original question, are we in agreeance that the key has not been located when the pulley was put back on thus the broken bolt and the rusty key??
[quote="fool_injected"]
I pity my brother when she is a teenager[/quote]
I pity my brother when she is a teenager[/quote]
From what your telling us without a doubt. Who stripped it down and found the key in behind the timing case?high n mighty wrote:So back to the original question, are we in agreeance that the key has not been located when the pulley was put back on thus the broken bolt and the rusty key??
What im trying to get at is if someone other than the mechanic has pulled the engine down then the mechanic is likely to try and deny responsibility.
I agrea with Ron(rvh96) as well if the front of that crank is undersize even slightly the crank will need to be replaced or at a minimum be removed and get it metal sprayed and re-machined. The Balancer will never stay tight if its undersize.
You make a good point, Nick pulled it down after it returned to Newy from Brisbane via a tow truck.
I see where your going and I think they may go down that path although at the time fault was not given to anyone and it wasn't known why it let go 9 thousand klms after. I don't think Nick even thought that the mechanical shop was responsible at the time of the damage happening or the time of pulling it down. The puzzle wasn't put together until the key was found in the timing case.
One more valid point to make is that two mechanics at the workshop rang Nick(he works for the servo connected to the workshop which makes it messy) and blamed a fella named Nathan, saying that he recently did exactly the same thing to a Toyota Hiace.
I see where your going and I think they may go down that path although at the time fault was not given to anyone and it wasn't known why it let go 9 thousand klms after. I don't think Nick even thought that the mechanical shop was responsible at the time of the damage happening or the time of pulling it down. The puzzle wasn't put together until the key was found in the timing case.
One more valid point to make is that two mechanics at the workshop rang Nick(he works for the servo connected to the workshop which makes it messy) and blamed a fella named Nathan, saying that he recently did exactly the same thing to a Toyota Hiace.
[quote="fool_injected"]
I pity my brother when she is a teenager[/quote]
I pity my brother when she is a teenager[/quote]
H & M, I am a mechanic (now retired 
cos it sucks) by trade and have seen a few engines spin pulleys before.
Usually what causes a pulley to spin is the bolt is not tensioned correctly. The aftermath of this is as you can see is the crank & pulley can get severely damaged but also the key usually gets sheared off because it then starts taking the load it is not designed for. The key is really only a locator with the close tolerence combination of the crank, pulley and bolt clamping the pulley to the timing belt pulley that carries the majority of the load.
Some of the guys are almost on the right track about the key coming out bit but if you look at the pic with the timing cover on there is no way the key can find its way back there as there is no clearance. Also I would expect to see the key mashed, or if it is not mashed it would fall outwards onto the road.
If you look at the pulley groove you will notice it is full of crap, this should be nice and clean where the key has been located when the pulley is in situ.
What it appears has happened here is the key has been left out and whatever method was used to remove the bolt originally has weakened it causing it to snap because the pulley was not located correctly.
I reckon its lucky to have lasted 9000k's.
Just my 20c worth & I hope it helps.
cos it sucks) by trade and have seen a few engines spin pulleys before.Usually what causes a pulley to spin is the bolt is not tensioned correctly. The aftermath of this is as you can see is the crank & pulley can get severely damaged but also the key usually gets sheared off because it then starts taking the load it is not designed for. The key is really only a locator with the close tolerence combination of the crank, pulley and bolt clamping the pulley to the timing belt pulley that carries the majority of the load.
Some of the guys are almost on the right track about the key coming out bit but if you look at the pic with the timing cover on there is no way the key can find its way back there as there is no clearance. Also I would expect to see the key mashed, or if it is not mashed it would fall outwards onto the road.
If you look at the pulley groove you will notice it is full of crap, this should be nice and clean where the key has been located when the pulley is in situ.
What it appears has happened here is the key has been left out and whatever method was used to remove the bolt originally has weakened it causing it to snap because the pulley was not located correctly.
I reckon its lucky to have lasted 9000k's.
Just my 20c worth & I hope it helps.
Don't ask me, ask them. I'm just runnin for my life myself.
Well they are all following you...
No they ain't, I'm just in front...............
Well they are all following you...
No they ain't, I'm just in front...............
This is pretty much my thinking aswell. The Key has NOT been in the keyway. Also by the looks of the pulley it was not tensioned corectly.mkpatrol wrote:H & M, I am a mechanic (now retired
Usually what causes a pulley to spin is the bolt is not tensioned correctly. The aftermath of this is as you can see is the crank & pulley can get severely damaged but also the key usually gets sheared off because it then starts taking the load it is not designed for. The key is really only a locator with the close tolerence combination of the crank, pulley and bolt clamping the pulley to the timing belt pulley that carries the majority of the load.
Some of the guys are almost on the right track about the key coming out bit but if you look at the pic with the timing cover on there is no way the key can find its way back there as there is no clearance. Also I would expect to see the key mashed, or if it is not mashed it would fall outwards onto the road.
If you look at the pulley groove you will notice it is full of crap, this should be nice and clean where the key has been located when the pulley is in situ.
What it appears has happened here is the key has been left out and whatever method was used to remove the bolt originally has weakened it causing it to snap because the pulley was not located correctly.
I reckon its lucky to have lasted 9000k's.
Just my 20c worth & I hope it helps.
I'm not sure if i got this part right so correct me if i'm wrong.
The car went to mechanic and had timing belt replaced 9000km ago.
Now the bolt has broken which was noticed when driving along.
Car was towed home and stripped down and found to be like it is now? or car went to mechanic who has attempted to remove bolt?
You must give the mechanic first right of refusal to fix a fault they have caused. which i think you have done?
If you stripped it and seen the crank before hand and then sent it back to the original mechanic and now it's blue then they've obviously heated it which has now softened the crank and made it U/S. If you pulled it down and found it to be like that then i'd say RUFF was on the money cos it does look like it's been spinning for sometime.
Good luck
[quote="Uhhohh"]As far as an indecent proposal goes, I'd accept nothing less than $100,000 to tolerate buggery. Any less and it's just not worth the psychological trauma. [/quote]
God of Magnificant Ideas!
God of Magnificant Ideas!
The removal of the remaining stud is now the issue I would asume
so I'll get straight to the point..........
1/
Dont attempt this removal with an ezyout.....
because the next step will be trying to remove the broken easyout from the broken stud..... which = 100 times the agony / stress etc.
Drilling out an easyout aint fun
2/
Heat is your best friend........ and there are 2 objects that can be heated.
Most twits go for the outer part to heat because its easy to get to, this requires about double the heating in order to get an expansion great enough to releave the grip on the bolt.
The other option is to heat the broken bolt which unfortunately most nongs seem to ignore and choose the obvious "big bit" to blaze away on.
By heating the bolt, the expansion is obviously limited so what happens is that the bolt actually is compressed in the hole...... as soon as the heating is done quench the bolt with cold water and the bolt even tho its in a compresed state will shrink enough to releave the grip.
Now for the actual heating quandry....
Oxy is fine for the outer shell ( obviously its a warmup only, not to the point where its blued !! )
Oxy on the bolt in most cases wont work as it simply heats the whole area up in general
Welding is the chosen option for the bolt. The heat generated by the weld will penetrate down through the bolt thus compressing the bolt in its cavity. Once the weld is completed quench it...... this will shrink the bolt allowing it to be undone.
Seeing that the crank bolt is reasonably large then a decent lump of material can be welded to the remaing stud. Again there are a few choices as to what that material could be.......
1/
A 'NUT'...... works well on broken bolts that protude past the mounting surface.
2/
A flat bar ( 40x5 / 50x6 ) a few centimetres long welded in the same line as the crank and a big shifter to rotate it works well for broken bolts that are recessed into the mounting surface.
3/
A flat bar of any length welded at a 90degree angle to the line of the crank is good for broken bolts that are both protruding and recessed in the mounting surface the additional length is then used as the "spanner" to undo the bolt.
Looking at the pics......... its a 5 min job with the welder and some flat bar.....
If it doesnt come out from what I've explained above ( pharken rare it dont work ).... then ya get the drill out and start drilling....
Kingy
so I'll get straight to the point..........
1/
Dont attempt this removal with an ezyout.....
because the next step will be trying to remove the broken easyout from the broken stud..... which = 100 times the agony / stress etc.
Drilling out an easyout aint fun
2/
Heat is your best friend........ and there are 2 objects that can be heated.
Most twits go for the outer part to heat because its easy to get to, this requires about double the heating in order to get an expansion great enough to releave the grip on the bolt.
The other option is to heat the broken bolt which unfortunately most nongs seem to ignore and choose the obvious "big bit" to blaze away on.
By heating the bolt, the expansion is obviously limited so what happens is that the bolt actually is compressed in the hole...... as soon as the heating is done quench the bolt with cold water and the bolt even tho its in a compresed state will shrink enough to releave the grip.
Now for the actual heating quandry....
Oxy is fine for the outer shell ( obviously its a warmup only, not to the point where its blued !! )
Oxy on the bolt in most cases wont work as it simply heats the whole area up in general
Welding is the chosen option for the bolt. The heat generated by the weld will penetrate down through the bolt thus compressing the bolt in its cavity. Once the weld is completed quench it...... this will shrink the bolt allowing it to be undone.
Seeing that the crank bolt is reasonably large then a decent lump of material can be welded to the remaing stud. Again there are a few choices as to what that material could be.......
1/
A 'NUT'...... works well on broken bolts that protude past the mounting surface.
2/
A flat bar ( 40x5 / 50x6 ) a few centimetres long welded in the same line as the crank and a big shifter to rotate it works well for broken bolts that are recessed into the mounting surface.
3/
A flat bar of any length welded at a 90degree angle to the line of the crank is good for broken bolts that are both protruding and recessed in the mounting surface the additional length is then used as the "spanner" to undo the bolt.
Looking at the pics......... its a 5 min job with the welder and some flat bar.....
If it doesnt come out from what I've explained above ( pharken rare it dont work ).... then ya get the drill out and start drilling....
Kingy
[color=blue][size=150][b]And your cry-baby, whinyassed opinion would be.....? [/b][/size][/color]
Ruffy wrote:
Car was towed home and stripped down and found to be like it is now? or car went to mechanic who has attempted to remove bolt?
Car was towed home, where I removed the pulley to inspect the damage. Once I saw the bolt sheared off, it was towed straight to the mechanics.
The crank colour was as shown in first pic taken at home. The pic with the blue colour on the crank was taken after 1 day at the mechanics.
You must give the mechanic first right of refusal to fix a fault they have caused. which i think you have done?
Yes, it went straight to them first business day. They found the key in the timing case and I think they are not going to admit any responsibility.
Good luck
[quote="RockyF70 - Coming out of the closet"]i'd be rushing out and buying an IFS rocky[/quote]
I tried mig welding a nut over a broken axle stud on a landcruiser rear hub the other day. I completely filled the nut with weld with the amps cranked right up but the weld wouldnt take to the broken stud - the nut kept twisting off. Pretty sure the stud was high tensile - is there any trick to welding to high tensile bolts/studs? It was only an 8mm stud so not a lot of area also......V8Patrol wrote:The removal of the remaining stud is now the issue I would asume
so I'll get straight to the point..........
1/
Dont attempt this removal with an ezyout.....
because the next step will be trying to remove the broken easyout from the broken stud..... which = 100 times the agony / stress etc.
Drilling out an easyout aint fun
2/
Heat is your best friend........ and there are 2 objects that can be heated.
Most twits go for the outer part to heat because its easy to get to, this requires about double the heating in order to get an expansion great enough to releave the grip on the bolt.
The other option is to heat the broken bolt which unfortunately most nongs seem to ignore and choose the obvious "big bit" to blaze away on.
By heating the bolt, the expansion is obviously limited so what happens is that the bolt actually is compressed in the hole...... as soon as the heating is done quench the bolt with cold water and the bolt even tho its in a compresed state will shrink enough to releave the grip.
Now for the actual heating quandry....
Oxy is fine for the outer shell ( obviously its a warmup only, not to the point where its blued !! )
Oxy on the bolt in most cases wont work as it simply heats the whole area up in general
Welding is the chosen option for the bolt. The heat generated by the weld will penetrate down through the bolt thus compressing the bolt in its cavity. Once the weld is completed quench it...... this will shrink the bolt allowing it to be undone.
Seeing that the crank bolt is reasonably large then a decent lump of material can be welded to the remaing stud. Again there are a few choices as to what that material could be.......
1/
A 'NUT'...... works well on broken bolts that protude past the mounting surface.
2/
A flat bar ( 40x5 / 50x6 ) a few centimetres long welded in the same line as the crank and a big shifter to rotate it works well for broken bolts that are recessed into the mounting surface.
3/
A flat bar of any length welded at a 90degree angle to the line of the crank is good for broken bolts that are both protruding and recessed in the mounting surface the additional length is then used as the "spanner" to undo the bolt.
Looking at the pics......... its a 5 min job with the welder and some flat bar.....
If it doesnt come out from what I've explained above ( pharken rare it dont work ).... then ya get the drill out and start drilling....
Kingy
that crank has had it, and there is probably no point tryin to get the bolt out unless u want it repaired, metal spray is the only way for repair like ruff has mentioned, if ya want to get out the bolt and if it doesnt move after ya weld sumthin to it spark erossin is the only way.
buggy time............
dodgy mechanic, that key was never put back in, it is impossible for it to come out in one piece. ive done alot of these, and they always sheer off. best bet is to get a very comp engineer to drill it out, can be done, i have had it done more than once with great success. that is as long as your crank measures up to spec (ie its not worn down)
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