Auto Vs Manual for 4x4ing

Post by **badger** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 5:26 pm

the cost of a good clutch isnt that much if at all cheaper than a lock up switch for the tourque convertor, few other tweaks and a big ass trans cooler and after that both need reduction gears wich are the same cost auto or manual for the same car

i own both n love both

Post by **Thommo 73** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:00 pm

i wasnt going to get into this mass de bate, but i will.
you still only need one foot for a manual if its that steep you should forget about touching the clutch! not to metion that you shouldn't burn a clutch out in a manual (only a auto driver would have that problem....

and i have seen more autos come in on the back of trucks then i have manuals.. to ONLY reason i would go to an auto for ANYTHING is for high powered V8

as many have said there is more bad points to an auto than a manual. but they have their purpose. to let poeple with less skill go off road...

Post by cj » Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:14 pm

Thommo 73 wrote:
as many have said there is more bad points to an auto than a manual. but they have their purpose. to let poeple with less skill go off road...

Or as many more have said "There are more bad points to a manual than an auto but they have their purpose, to let people who know no better still go offroad"

Post by **Suspension Stuff** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:20 pm

Thommo 73 wrote:i wasnt going to get into this mass de bate, but i will.
you still only need one foot for a manual if its that steep you should forget about touching the clutch! not to metion that you shouldn't burn a clutch out in a manual (only a auto driver would have that problem....

I am not talking about the little hills, sometimes you need go very slow in hairy situations and the manual just isn't slow enough, otherwise you stall it. Sure you can use one foot on both pedals which I usually did.

Now I have an auto and I am not going back to a manual.

EVER.

Post by **Gwagensteve** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:03 pm

steven101 wrote:Has ANYONE... noticed everyone that to run an auto everyone says "with some work an auto is better than a manual"....

An auto STOCK will run away down a hill
A Manual Won't

No it won't necessarily. EFI petrols with timing control will try very hard to maintain idle and engine brake fairly well.

My Diesel Gwagen engine brakes about as well as a petrol manual. The '96 Hummer my dad owned for a few years also engine braked very well.

Cj's 4.0:1 transfer geared auto vitara engine brakes so well most descents are done in low 2nd... with both feet on the floor (stock auto, just proper transfer gearing also required in a manual) It's amazingly good, and obviously up hill no manual can touch it. This isn't some irrelevant comp car either - a daily driven 1.6 with 31's on it.

as a few have pointed out - in VERY steep descents you have to either stall stop and key start a manual or dip the clutch and balance clutch/brake.

Additionally, those with very low geared manuals will also be aware that gearing can be too low, even for descending.

Many of the perceived problems with autos are old timer stories about tall geared, three speed 1970's american stuff, torque flight equipped carby rangies etc and other old stuff that often also had poor brakes, widely spread gearing, changed slowly, wouldn't hold gears etc.

I don't believe anyone has yet to post "I owned an auto XYZ and have gone back to a manual as it is better in the bush" or have I missed something?

Steve.

Post by **bogged** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:14 pm

Gwagensteve wrote:I don't believe anyone has yet to post "I owned an auto XYZ and have gone back to a manual as it is better in the bush" or have I missed something?

Steve.

just spending a fortune on gettin my 03 GU 4.2 converted to auto... had the Auto GQ, and loved it. Nissan missed the boat with no Auto 4.2 would have wiped the grenade off the map..

Post by **Rocky8** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:17 am

4WD Stuff wrote:
4WD Stuff wrote:
Rocky8 wrote:a 5 speed manual diesel in low range....theres nothing better boys....
....for going down hill slowly.
Auto for everything else.

Only if u got no balls...

Post by **bogged** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:38 am

Rocky8 wrote:Only if u got no balls...

fawk, I forgot its school holidays aint it...

Post by **Suspension Stuff** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:53 am

bogged wrote:
Rocky8 wrote:Only if u got no balls...
fawk, I forgot its school holidays aint it...

Lets face it, he has a Rocky and he is proud of it.

Post by **lay80n** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:38 am

4WD Stuff wrote:
bogged wrote:
Rocky8 wrote:Only if u got no balls...
fawk, I forgot its school holidays aint it...
Lets face it, he has a Rocky and he is proud of it.

If its a got rocky drive train, its got at best about 34:1 crawl ratio. If you talking up low speed control and engine braking with that sort of ratio, (even on 31's) your version of a steep decent must be the down ramp at woolworths carpark.

Layto....

Post by **nzdarin** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:52 am

cj wrote:
Thommo 73 wrote:
as many have said there is more bad points to an auto than a manual. but they have their purpose. to let poeple with less skill go off road...

Or as many more have said "There are more bad points to a manual than an auto but they have their purpose, to let people who know no better still go offroad"

Any muppet can drive a manual! All you do is stick it in gear and drive at that speed! An auto actually requires a bit of skill and experience as you have to control speed with the accelerater and brake. This is harder and takes some learning BUT it enables far better vehicle control once the skills are mastered.
Engine braking is a complete crock of shit! Th brake is designed to stop you and the accelerater to make you go faster. A combination of gear selection (wether auto or manual) brake and accelerater is what is required for the right speed. Anyone who sticks it in gear and just steers has no skill and is in fact a passenger in a sled on the verge of control.
I've driven and owned both. Manuals have there place and it is on road. Off road an auto give so much more ability that the small disadvantages they have are inconsequential.

I am however completely biased as I've driven both and now you couldn't get me into a manual off road.

Post by **Goatse.AJ** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:49 pm

lay80n wrote:
4WD Stuff wrote:
bogged wrote:
Rocky8 wrote:Only if u got no balls...
fawk, I forgot its school holidays aint it...
Lets face it, he has a Rocky and he is proud of it.

.......your version of a steep decent must be the down ramp at woolworths carpark.

Layto....

Don't forget he's in Adelaide, home HARDcore wheelin'

Post by **Gwagensteve** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:17 pm

For fark's sake Rocky8, post your actual experience in relation to this topic or shut the fark up. I call you know nothing about the topic at all and are just repeating what daddy told you.

I'm not knocking Diahatsu drivers or people from adelaide, but some of us in the rest of Australia have difficult terrain to drive, and will choose/build the best car to drive it in. From what I can see you have neither. Many of us on this thread learned to drive offroad in manuals and eventually took a risk and went auto - and loved the outcome.

So stop hiding behind the smartarse comments and add something to the thread or go and play somewhere else.

Or keep posting.... we don't mind having someone to laugh at...

Steve.

Post by **Suspension Stuff** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:33 pm

I have an Auto Jeep ZJ Grand Cherokee on petrol which is pretty close to stock (mods coming soon). I have got to say that it feels like it goes every bit as slow in 1st low as a Patrol petrol manual.

It had it's 1st off road venture last week and I was quite impressed with the Jeep.
The 80 Series petrol auto was faily good also. So the difference really isn't that much as stated previously.

Post by **steven101** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:02 pm

4WD Stuff wrote:I have an Auto Jeep ZJ Grand Cherokee on petrol which is pretty close to stock (mods coming soon). I have got to say that it feels like it goes every bit as slow in 1st low as a Patrol petrol manual.

It had it's 1st off road venture last week and I was quite impressed with the Jeep.
The 80 Series petrol auto was faily good also. So the difference really isn't that much as stated previously.

Just curious has anyone tried a newer model pajero auto, petrol ? as in above the 2000 model, The engine braking is BS runs of down a hill in first.

Post by **GRIMACE** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:06 pm

AUTO!
if you get scared and think it runs away down a hill, increase your crawl ratio (gearing). This will reduce, and possibly rid runaway and will make the vehicle better in all other aspects.

Manual fanatics will want lower gearing anyways, to make climbing/crawling more controlled. So at the end of the day it doesn't matter, both transmissions should be coupled with a better low range and in the end once you do that the auto is better still

Post by **RoldIT** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:11 pm

I have "Auto Envy" ...

Post by **Thommo 73** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:01 pm

what it takes less skill to drive an auto...just look at licences! you cant drive a manual on an auto ticket can ya?????????.
now lets start the next debate on whether petrol is better than diesel....

all i can say is you'll never get an auto owner to admit bad things about autos!

Post by **GRIMACE** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:26 pm

Thommo 73 wrote:what it takes less skill to drive an auto...just look at licences! you cant drive a manual on an auto ticket can ya?????????.
now lets start the next debate on whether petrol is better than diesel....

all i can say is you'll never get an auto owner to admit bad things about autos!

Really... I have an auto, V8 petrol rangie and its ghey...

Post by **Suspension Stuff** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:39 pm

Thommo 73 wrote:what it takes less skill to drive an auto...just look at licences! you cant drive a manual on an auto ticket can ya?????????.
now lets start the next debate on whether petrol is better than diesel....

all i can say is you'll never get an auto owner to admit bad things about autos!

I have already said that Autos cost more and have less compression for slow work. Some auto's don't last as long as a manual but that is a very general statement. To me that is 3 bad points about an auto.

The good points are everything else in this thread said by people who are not biased but have driven manuals but have converted.

We have seen the light.

My question is, have you owned an auto 4wd that you have taken bush and tried some tricky tracks?

You are still entitled to your opinion if you haven't but the readers of this topic should know what experience you base your comments on.

Shane

Post by **high n mighty** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:24 am

Thommo 73 wrote:what it takes less skill to drive an auto...just look at licences! you cant drive a manual on an auto ticket can ya?????????.
now lets start the next debate on whether petrol is better than diesel....

all i can say is you'll never get an auto owner to admit bad things about autos!

I just drove my hilux today for the first time with the V6 in it, I chose to put the T700 in over a manual AFTER driving my auto prado in the dirt, sand, rocks etc. You like your manual and that is fine, how many auto's have ya actually used for real 4wding, I won't go back to manual unless the vehicle is dirt cheap or there are no other options in that model etc...

As far as driving a manual being harder, if you still think driving a manual is any effort at all you must be young... The only reason licences are different on P PLATES is because for a P PLATER a MANUAL is deemed a DISTRACTION.

Post by **Gwagensteve** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:48 am

Thommo 73 wrote:what it takes less skill to drive an auto...just look at licences! you cant drive a manual on an auto ticket can ya?????????.

You're absolutely correct, on road. Off road is a completely different story. I have seen some autos driven very badly off road, mostly because their owners think they're easy to drive and they spend the whole time falling off the converter and then going for the brake, lurching and bumping into things.

I said right from the start - an auto IS NOT easier to drive off road than a manual, absolutely no way. However, once mastered, the auto will give a far better result. Just like a manual, driving an auto off road is nothing like driving one on road.

It is clear lots of people are reading this thread and some have never driven an auto offroad (not having a go, just a statement of face). This is how I do it:

The way I drive an auto offroad is by left foot braking. Power and brakes are manipulated to load and unload the converter. This way, torque at the wheels can be controlled completely separately from revs. This is not possible in a manual, and is much more like a hydraulic drive (because it is

). If left foot braking isn't used, the car will roll back or roll on as load on the converter is reduced making for loose and uncontrolled progress.

The key is to keep revs around the converter stall speed when maneuvering in technical terrain with one foot ont he brake to "damp" the converter. Like this very accurate driving is possible. This takes an enormous amount of "feel" and has to be learned. It takes very small and precise inputs to throttle and brake... simultaneously, so it's a little like trying to pat your head and rub your tummy to start with, especially if you've come from a manual.

Low powered cars are easier to drive like this - my 66kw, 2500kg G wagen is quite easy as it takes very large throttle and brake inputs to make anything happen. a petrol 80, as an example, is a lot harder to master as it wants to rev out, making the converter bite and the car surge. This is one reason why I prefer diesel autos - they are easier to control around the stall speed of the converter.

Autos do have disadvantages - heat, power consumption, complexity, fixed stall speed, slip, less compression braking, added weight, bulk, etcetcetc. All of that is immaterial once you've learnt to drive a converter. People who drive manuals just can't believe what's possible.

The ability to control torque at the wheels completely separately from revs (wheelspeed) is what makes autos head and shoulders above a manual in had terrain.

Unless, of course, you drive a Rocky....

Steve.

Post by **nzdarin** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:02 am

Well said Steve!
One other thing an auto can do very well is using left foot braking you load and unload the front axle so making it easier to travel at speed over rough ground. By doing this you choose when to brake and accelerater to make the crossing of bumps and holes a far easier thing as the suspension will work much better with less weight on it. Also the ride will be much smoother and faster.

I do disagree on one thing and that is keeping the engine at converter stall speed. For me that is 3000rpm and 10psi boost ie somewhere about 150rwkw!!! But then that's not a normal problem. For me I do a similar thing but it is just t lower revs and use more slip. The priciple is th sae though.

Post by **Gwagensteve** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:07 am

agreed - at stall, my Gwagen is probably doing 30rwkw... if I'm lucky

but 3000rpm is a pretty high stall for a 4WD too.

I don't do high speed stuff so the I haven't played with the technique you explain, but it certainly sounds valid.

Steve.

Post by **cloughy** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:42 pm

high n mighty wrote:
Thommo 73 wrote:what it takes less skill to drive an auto...just look at licences! you cant drive a manual on an auto ticket can ya?????????.
now lets start the next debate on whether petrol is better than diesel....

all i can say is you'll never get an auto owner to admit bad things about autos!
You like your manual and that is fine, how many auto's have ya actually used for real 4wding, .

Yea Thommo, 'ow many?

Post by **r0ck_m0nkey** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:21 pm

Thommo 73 wrote:what it takes less skill to drive an auto...just look at licences! you cant drive a manual on an auto ticket can ya?????????.
now lets start the next debate on whether petrol is better than diesel....

Judging by the amount of people that think an auto isn't as good offroad as a manul, it's obvious that a lot of manual drivers find it terribly hard to drive an auto offroad.

If they knew how, then they'd realise how much better they are.

Post by **macca81** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:50 pm

high n mighty wrote:
Thommo 73 wrote:what it takes less skill to drive an auto...just look at licences! you cant drive a manual on an auto ticket can ya?????????.
The only reason licences are different on P PLATES is because for a P PLATER a MANUAL is deemed a DISTRACTION.

the moment you are off your P plates, you can drive a manual car. even if you have never ever driven one before in your life!

autos less skill to learn in i agree, but just as hard to master, if not harder. and this is comming from a HUGE manual fan

Post by **Thommo 73** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:42 pm

how many autos have i driven..........alot about 4 aday for the last nine months... i'll admit not all of them have been off road. but atleast 1/4 have been(maybe not hardcore but still). they have been a good cross section of nissans hyundai and mainly toyotas. i have drive a few autos in tricky stuff but im staying maunal.
in new cars i'll agree autos are better but anything older than 2005 and they are crap.

Post by **Troopy93** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:56 pm

I have never driven an auto offroad but go wheeling with a few and the normal topic of conversation is usually along the lines of "how's the transmission temp mate, or i gotta stop for a while cos mines overheating" this is always the auto brigade and on 90% of trips where there are some decent hills to climb. Me i'll stay in the manual and drive downhill in 2nd low or 1st low at around 2500-3000 revs just so they dont run up my ass..

Post by **Wambat** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:27 pm

i would say im a biased manual fan, but reading through this, im starting to understand alot of the points to do with autos.

ive owned 4 cars, 3 autos and 1 manual, my manual was also my only 4wd, i am now back in a commodoer till i can get my next 4wd.

but from reading what alot of you experianced guys have said i am thinking about the bennifits of an auto over a manual, but as i am still a novice off road ( so much so that i belvie when i get my next 4wd, which i want to build from the ground up as much as possiable, im not going to put lockers into it so that i can get a feel for the car without them)

but would you guys rekomend getting an auto first off, or instead learning a manual aswell.

as far as i see it, mabe start with manual, then mabe later swap, as i see it as a matter of personal choice,

would you rekomend trying to get out bush with some one thats got an auto and seeing it in action( and if they trusted you enough have a go) as every one ive ever gone 4wdign with has had a manual, and most are pig headed and wont even think about an auto

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