SJ80 coily: really worth it?

[guerd87]

hey guys,

i bought my 96 SJ80 coily about 2-3 months ago and ive had a great time in it just burning around up the beach etc etc

im looking towards getting more into the trail/rock side of things and ive been trying to look around for some pics/info on many doneup coily's...but i cant find any

is this because no one does them up? or they are to expensive to do?

my question: is it worth doing a coil rig for serious fun in the rocks or should i just try and sell it/trade it for a leaf sprung model?

cheers
John

[MART]

Do up the coily , have you travelled in a leaf sprung zook , Cheers Paul.

[Gwagensteve]

Unless you are a talented fabricator, no, I wouldn't build a coil car for hard terrain.

Yes, it can be done, but it is a hard road - there are very few interchangeable partsm the suspension design is heavily compromised and money still needs to be spent in all the same places - there's no actual advantage in a coiler as an off road car.

sorry to sound negative, just my opinion. I have worked pretty extensively on one and we kept hitting hurdles.

Steve.

[guerd87]

comfort isnt an issue, i want a car that goes good, ive got my road car for comfort

leaf sprung sounds the way

fabricator? prob could if i wanted to but id rather just bolt in considering i do use the car during the week sometimes

i want something that i can get alot of support for, and even getting a decent lift in the coily has been challenging

so..whos got a leafy they want to swap for a good condition coily?

[Gwagensteve]

Sounds like you had your answer before you asked the question...

Steve.

[guerd87]

you sound like you know what you are talking about Steve, raised some good issues in your post, some i knew of but pretty much re-assured me of my decision

[GRPABT1]

The benifits of a coily are faaaaaaaaaaaar outweighed by the drawbacks. The only coils that are good on a sierra are full custom setups on comp vehicles. I know of only one coily that has a decent lift and ok flex, and that has lots of custom work done to get it to the stage that leafy could be done for alot less trouble.

[Big D]

iv got a coily and although i havnt done anymods to it yet, im planning to in the very near future. Yes they are a pain to build and yes there are less parts for them, but if u have money, then theres no prob lol. Sam on this forum has built a coily up, looks real good now but he has used jimny front suspension setup, so fabrication work (asa steve said) is needed there.

I myself am planning to go 2" sus lift with a 2"body lift. Theres not too many dramas there other than getting different gears for the bigger rubber. Also the front strut likes to rip out so that needs reinforcing of somesort.

leafies are cheaper and ezier, but coilies ride better on the road.

dylan

[grimbo]

iv got a coily and although i havnt done anymods to it yet, im planning to in the very near future. Yes they are a pain to build and yes there are less parts for them, but if u have money, then theres no prob lol. Sam on this forum has built a coily up, looks real good now but he has used jimny front suspension setup, so fabrication work (asa steve said) is needed there.

I myself am planning to go 2" sus lift with a 2"body lift. Theres not too many dramas there other than getting different gears for the bigger rubber. Also the front strut likes to rip out so that needs reinforcing of somesort.

leafies are cheaper and ezier, but coilies ride better on the road.

dylan

Who is Sam and what buildup?

I begto differ that coilies ride better on road. My Sierra used to ride way better than a coily. Genralisations are just silly IMHO

[Gwagensteve]

I don't actually agree. a well set up coil sierra and a well set up leaf sierra will ride about the same - after all they run about the same spring rates, and unsprung weight and COG etc are about the same.
I agree a coiler will steer better though due to less distortion of the front end under lateral load.

THe big advantage of the coiler is that they are much tighter and quieter than a leaf car. By the time the coiler came out suzuki knew very few people were using them offroad so all the work went into making them more "car like" and they are from an NVH standpoint. That's the reason for the coils, the smooth cowl, the better door design and the chain drive transfer.

Just my thoughts.

Steve.

[Big D]

lol well u guys know wat ur talking abouts so ill leave the answers to u guys.

Sam owns 'Trogdor', that purple/blue 96 coily.

[GRPABT1]

Sams was the car I was talking about, but as mentioned alot of time effort and money was spent on making that what it is.

[spamwell]

time and effort yes, money no.

i really don't think it ended up anymore expensive than doing a leafy will all new parts, sure there is heaps of second hand stuff in reguards to springs and what not but all my stuff was new and i spent about 1000 not including bushes because i had replaced them anyway

so procomp shocks *4
pedders lifted springs *4
material for control arms panhards and bracing
and jimny upper mounts and vitara lower mounts

and me and my dad did all the labour, i spent around the same amount buying

efs leaf springs
4 shocks
new shackles

for my old 1 litre

basically you just need to be able to do the work yourself to keep the cost down.

so i have made
new control arms
new panhards
swapped front mounts
and braced mounts on front and rear diffs.


with the suspention the way i have it, it rides real nice on the road, better than any leafy i have been in but yeah it depends i guess. but it was more difficult to set up but i think it would be just as difficult to get the ride of mine stuffing around with leaf spring combinations.

in reguards to the transfer case everyone swaps out there case for different gears anyway so most of the time people buy a whole case already done and using a combination of wt and coil parts you can install one easily.

they are just as easy in regaurds to motors actually easier to do efi conversions if you just bolt inb the vitara fuel pump into the tank.

body wise the only downfall is the fact the screen frame is not replaceable if you fall over.

they also have tinted windows and a lower driving position and side inpact bars lol like they do anything though.

lockers can be found using a combination of jimny and coily parts

and i like the dashboard way better

[Zuki98]

i have a modded coily 2in body and 3 in spring, gears and locker and all the other stuff and i wish i had done up a leafy just for the ease of bolt in u dont have to invent things ur self unless u want to. u can build a pritty tuff leafy for half the time work and money u would have to spend on a coily. if i had bought a leafy i wouldnt be doin what im doin now, cutin and choping

[redzook]

sell the coily to me and buy a leafy

[guerd87]

well looking through about 14 pages of searching in the forums its seems thats the coily may not be as hard as i thought

spamwell; your car has taken my interest and i want to ask you a few basic question and get some stuff straight:

Front:

from what i have seen in post, pictures and i think correct:

upper coil mount taken from jimny (any year model?)
lower coil mount from vitara diff (any year model?)
lower shock mount i can custom make
upper shock mounts into jimny upper coil mount

i will need to strenghten the stock trailing arm mount on the chassis which is really no biggy

want i need/want to know:

what size lift and from car are the coils in your front?
car model?
year model?
lift size (if any) and load rating?


Rear:

there hasnt been much talk about the rear? im guesing just only a few mods:

ive read somewhere (but cant find it now) that you used a 2" lifted coil from a crv?
strengthen rear control arm mounts


no work needed to fit in the crv coil into the mounts?

--------

where did you source your jimny/vitara upper and lower mounts from? wreckers? can buy them online?

sorry for asking all the questions but its best to find out first then to buy the wrong parts

shocks are no big problem, i will just do some measuring and get the right length shock to suit

panhards: are these only made into adjustable because of the lift? to get diff centered properly?

control arms: would you have some pictures of yours? building new ones shouldnt be a problem, i done the laqst ones on my 80series but just would like some info/pics before i start

links: im guesing there are no 3/4/X link setups in the car? stock diff mounts all round just strengthened?


giving that i get all the info i need and can gete access to all the parts i will prob take it off the road for a week or so and do it all at once, properly

cheers for all your help
John

[spamwell]

Front:
upper coil mount taken from jimny (2000 model but all are the same)
lower coil mount from vitara diff (it was an 89 model swb i really just used that spring seat and modified them to be the right height for it to sit level because i did not get custom springs)
lower shock mount i can custom make (i made some yeah)
upper shock mounts into jimny upper coil mount (yep)

i will need to strenghten the stock trailing arm mount on the chassis which is really no biggy ( i have not had a problem at the chassis just brace every single diff bracket they like to tear off)

want i need/want to know:

what size lift and from car are the coils in your front? (50mm pedders first series REAR crv coils front and rear)

Rear:
( Just bracing and control arms i will be changing the shock mounst soon though they are on a funny angle)

ive read somewhere (but cant find it now) that you used a 2" lifted coil from a crv?
strengthen rear control arm mounts


no work needed to fit in the crv coil into the mounts? (nope the are the perfect size for jimny front mounts and standard sierra rears)

--------

where did you source your jimny/vitara upper and lower mounts from? wreckers? can buy them online? (wreckers from a jimny with a bend chassis)

shocks are no big problem, i will just do some measuring and get the right length shock to suit (yeah i measured and just looked at the prom comp listing)

panhards: are these only made into adjustable because of the lift? to get diff centered properly? ( mine where just made to the right length although i want adjustable ones so skip that step lol)

control arms: would you have some pictures of yours? building new ones shouldnt be a problem, i done the laqst ones on my 80series but just would like some info/pics before i start




i would also brace the diff housings i have bend both front and rear lol front was straighened and braced when i did the suspention but i still need to do the rear before my tyres get wrecked


links: im guesing there are no 3/4/X link setups in the car? stock diff mounts all round just strengthened? (standard set up hence the reason it doesn't have mental flex)

go into memebers are search for my post it is all in there really

thanks sam

[Gwagensteve]

Sam - no disrespect to the very impressive work you have done - I liek it a lot -

guerd87 - Sam's modifications are very impressively built, and he is a talented fabricator- just the sort of person who can work with a coiler -

But, only one of the inherent problems of the coiler has been fixed with all this work, the undersized and breakage prone front shock mounts. (yes, caster etc has also been fixed, but that's a product of lift, so not an inherent problem.

The show stoppers from my point of view are the following:

The rear roll stiffness is WAY lower than the front, and IMHO just too low to be usable offroad. This is because of the very narrow rear spring spacing.

The front roll stiffness is too high, caused by wide spring spacing, and the effects of bushing bind when articulated.

A Leaf sierra is the opposite, it has higher rear roll stiffness than front, which makes the front work better and keeps the rear planted when climbing. Coilers tend to really scarily pick up front wheels on big climbs, far, far worse than a leaf car. A way around this is to increase the rear roll stiffness with a rear anti sway bar.

The rubber bushings in coiler control arms are not replaceable, only urethane replacements are available. these are too stiff and make the roll stiffness and bushing bind worse. Caster correction bushes make it even worse.

Coilers use wider inner axles (35mm) than sierras so any of the heavy duty CV's aren't usable unless you get custom inner axles made.

I have spent hours and hours trying to work through the compromised suspension design of a coiler and every time you fix one problem another raises it's head.

A 2" BL, RUF, OME sprung leaf car with slightly longer shackles and appropriate shocks will out ride, out flex, be cheaper and heaps easier to build, and have more available upgrade parts.

I'll get flamed by the coiler lovers, but I really don't tihnk they are Suzuki's best work.

Steve.

[Zuki98]

I have to agree with Gwagensteve very scary on climbs loves pulling 1 front wheel then getin crossed up makes u sht ur pants. buy a leafy or u'll regret it

[GRPABT1]

I also agree with steve on this one, while Sams' car is nice and yes it could be done why the bloody hell would you? I mean save yourself some effort and sell the coily to some chick who wants a "cute" car and buy a leafy with some if not all the work done. Seriously doing the work yourself and building something different and prioneering no matter how cool it sounds is waaaaaaaay over-rated.

[Minorci]

long time reader, first time poster...


shocks in my 97 sj80 zook are rooted (stock) so i figure its a good time to get a little lift..

im looking at suzisports shock and spring kit for the sj80... in addition to getting that what will have to do?

[spamwell]

i think the harder springs and bushes have fixed up the rear a fair bit in regaurds to roll stiffness i still have better travel than before bit it is definenlty more controled than it was with 2 inch kings.

i would like to get my hands on some of the rubber bush/ball joints the japs use to solve the bushing bind problem.

i built caster correction into the design of the control arms.

but yeah still loves picking up front wheels haha i think this could be improved with those ball joints though not sure.

i find the coily better up rock steps and stuff like that because it does not bounce around like a leaf sprung car.

just if your willing to do the work they are not to bad.

but in regaurds to cv's i wonder if there is a way to get some made up usuing coil axles and heavy duty aftermarket cv's i have not really had the need to look into that.

but it is a pain suzuki could have got half of this crap ritght in the first place lol

[spamwell]

I also agree with steve on this one, while Sams' car is nice and yes it could be done why the bloody hell would you? I mean save yourself some effort and sell the coily to some chick who wants a "cute" car and buy a leafy with some if not all the work done. Seriously doing the work yourself and building something different and prioneering no matter how cool it sounds is waaaaaaaay over-rated.

well i did it because i really enjoyed it and because i rolled my 81 model and found this one for $1000 lol

and when more people get there hands on coilies for the right reasons maybe just like the leaf cars which have been around for a million years longer and where sold in a much larger volume there could be ways to work around all these problems.

in a way it is the same as everyone knows springover is a nightmare and don't try put a commo v6 in a sierra lol i dunno maybe i am just really positive lol.

maybe the key is if your going to buy a coily just put coilovers in it where you want them lol. i dunno

[Gwagensteve]

I admire your optimism Spamwell, but no, the dominance of leaf cars is not only because they have been around forever, it's actually not a bad design.

The thing is, the geometry of leaves is simple and effective. some lift in a leaf car, even longer leaves etc has no effect on the basic operation of the leaf and the cars fundamental behaviour.

The problem with coils is that the solution engineered for a coil suspension will only ever work for the ride height and travel it was designed for. increase either and the dynamics of the car will get progressively worse. This is true for link designs of any type.

There's very little to "work around" with the leaf car - it only depends on how much lift and travel you are willing to build. A longer leaf will add travel and slow the resonant freqency of the spring, improving travel and ride all at once. Shocks are easy. Neither has any significant effect on geometry.

Fixing the compromises of a coiler to get it anywhere near a RUF/N76 leaf car (as an example) would be a total nightmare and still might result in something that's not road drivable due to relatively small problems with link angles, bushing choice, antisquat etc.

PS My Gwagen has a similar suspension design to the coiler front and rear and has it's own problems, but it does have 112" of wheelbase and 2500KG to squish the bushes up, and it still picks up front wheels. I only run 2.5" of lift in my G, no more - with more lift it would just get undrivable off road on big angles. many guys with coilers are trying for more than 2.5" of lift... on an 80" wheelbased, 1000kg car, andwonder why it's a nightmare.

Suzuki designed the coil suspension to have the same capability as the leaf suspension - 5" travel front, 6" back, but a quieter ride and better steering. tHey succeeded, but the nature of coil suspensions is that they are much harder to modify for parameters beyond this.

Steve.

[Big D]

i agree with all the posts although i do think that adding a small 2" ssuspension lift with 2" of body lift is not really causing much harm. i think if u r really serious and do hardcore 4x4ing, then a leafy would be a much better choice.

I hope i am right becasue i dont wanto sell my coily just becasue i cant get a 4"lift lol.

But then again, i do not know as much as most of u guys.

[spamwell]

I admire your optimism Spamwell, but no, the dominance of leaf cars is not only because they have been around forever, it's actually not a bad design.

The thing is, the geometry of leaves is simple and effective. some lift in a leaf car, even longer leaves etc has no effect on the basic operation of the leaf and the cars fundamental behaviour.

The problem with coils is that the solution engineered for a coil suspension will only ever work for the ride height and travel it was designed for. increase either and the dynamics of the car will get progressively worse. This is true for link designs of any type.

There's very little to "work around" with the leaf car - it only depends on how much lift and travel you are willing to build. A longer leaf will add travel and slow the resonant freqency of the spring, improving travel and ride all at once. Shocks are easy. Neither has any significant effect on geometry.

Fixing the compromises of a coiler to get it anywhere near a RUF/N76 leaf car (as an example) would be a total nightmare and still might result in something that's not road drivable due to relatively small problems with link angles, bushing choice, antisquat etc.

PS My Gwagen has a similar suspension design to the coiler front and rear and has it's own problems, but it does have 112" of wheelbase and 2500KG to squish the bushes up, and it still picks up front wheels. I only run 2.5" of lift in my G, no more - with more lift it would just get undrivable off road on big angles. many guys with coilers are trying for more than 2.5" of lift... on an 80" wheelbased, 1000kg car, andwonder why it's a nightmare.

Suzuki designed the coil suspension to have the same capability as the leaf suspension - 5" travel front, 6" back, but a quieter ride and better steering. tHey succeeded, but the nature of coil suspensions is that they are much harder to modify for parameters beyond this.

Steve.

yeah i don't think it is the only reason either i just think it is a big one. and i agree the leaf sprung cars are a good design i loved my old one untill i rolled it lol

Really depends what you want i guess i do the type of offroading that avoids big hills so i guess i do not run into as many problems due to my driving style/ terrain also i was just thinking there is probly no point even comparing the two types it's like the sierra vs vitara thing they both have there different qualities and offroad feel.

basically i think i have made a coily that doesn't fall apart lol and is a good comprimise between a trail/camping/travelling rig i mean i can drive all day and not even get a sore back !!! lol

[Gwagensteve]

I agree Spamwell, but here in Vic we can't avoid big hills, and the coiler's behviour is a bigger issue.

Steve.

[Big D]

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Shock-hoops-for- ... dZViewItem


these wouldnt be too hard to fit at the front of coily sierra woul it? with a bit of modification and a shock absorber eye hole on the axle, could it not replace the front strut setup?

[Gwagensteve]

with a separate coil or a strut? these won't like bearing the weight of the car in a strut configuration. with a separate coil they might be OK, but the're quite large and one chassis mount will probably be where the coil wants to sit.

Steve.

[guerd87]

thanks for all the info guys

im not entirly sure what to do, either just buy a off the shelf 2" and put in a 2" body and keep the coilovers

or put in a bottom coilmount + external shock on the front

until i get my head around it, does anyone have any pictures of what sj80's look like with just the 2" off the shelf coilovers + 2" body lift?

spamwell, got any pics of your car before the changes?

cheers
John