comp winches

[uninformed]

hey all,
i didnt want to hijack another thread.....

with all the development going into electric winches... double motors etc etc, is anyone competeing with hydraulic winch set up

if so how does the line speed compare to the top elec winches

also any info on type/make of winch and what sort of ltr/min the pumps are flowing

cheers, serg

[nzdarin]

There are quite a few in NZ. The best are doing up around 300 ft/min and are pulling with huge power! There are some seriously strong and fast winches here!
The basic pakage is take a Superwinch HP8N and add money!!!!!!! They cost to setup and they cost to keep going.
They are stringer and faster but in real life competition not necassarily better.
There are also PTO winches and they have similar power and speed potential but also have there own drawn backs.

[1MadEngineer]

hey all,
i didnt want to hijack another thread.....

with all the development going into electric winches... double motors etc etc, is anyone competeing with hydraulic winch set up

if so how does the line speed compare to the top elec winches

also any info on type/make of winch and what sort of ltr/min the pumps are flowing

cheers, serg

first thing - dont listen to the BS some guys will tell you!!!!
line speed of a hydraulic / pto is directly proportional to pump RPM/flow and is generally not affected by load, whereas an electric will slow as load is induced. That is why a good hydraulic/pto will draw 30-35 crank HP, to which a twin motor electric doesnt even compare !!

So when some idiot tells you that there twin motor high mount 'pulls at 50m/min under load' get them to show you!!! hook 2 cars together on the flat, put them both in gear with the hand brake on and then start skull dragging them along with the tyres skidding!!! (this generally equates to about 7000-8000lb of frictional force) I would be really surprised if it could even do 10m/min!!

use these formulae to give you some indicitive "real" power requirements
http://www.ajdesigner.com/phppower/powe ... locity.php
(as an example enter a STD high mount figures - 2.2hp and 8000lb: it gives you 0.046m/sec then X 60sec = 2.76m/min which is pretty close to rated specs disregarding real world losses)
now enter 12hp (2x6hp motors) and 8000lb: = 0.2514m/sec X 60sec = 15m/min (without losses). Just a handy tool to get a rough idea on power input requirement!!

Back to the Q's you need to aim for ~120l/min flow capacity and ~2900psi. do some calc and sums and you can easily work out the rest!!!

[TOY-08V]

just thought u might like to know what some modded electric winches are capable of, maybe 1MAD ENGINEER may also want to update hims info too.

My mates winch challenge comp rig (a orange 40) is running twin 9.5hp 24v motors, twin gearboxes, modded drum, etc, would easily pull at least 42m/min under load,

when we first got the winch running and spoiled on the cable across a flat concrete carpark, we used my hilux (which weighs just over 2.5ton) in park in the auto with hand break on it just skull dragged it the entire way across the car park in less than a minute(the cable is 42m long).

Now u cant say that isnt loaded up. Check out what some of the winch challenge guys are doing to their winches cause NONE are using PTOs and man some of those electric winches haul.

[uninformed]

well i run a 60ltr/min pump but i do not comp....

i hear alot that they are expensive etc etc , but i think if you compare quality, line speed and pull power they are no more expensive than an equal electric set up

i just dont know why more guys have not gone this route in oz????

serg

[11_evl]

serg
what are your specs, ie car and winch.
im considering doing a hydo set up as well. how much was the winch??

[nastytroll]

if you go hydrolic dont go PTO most often all that is needed it to put preasure on the front wheels to drive. For exanple a pto, either hydrolic or mechanical, will try to pull the vehicle through an obsticle. With an electric you can use the winch to pull onto the rock or obsticle n drive the wheel up it.

The best setup would be engine driven hydrolic with ability to drive wheels.

[uninformed]

landrover defender 110 tray back
milemaker 9000lb hyd 2 speed winch
Maxidrive direct pto
cross 60ltr/min pump
custom alloy tank approx 20ltrs
pressure relief valve set to 3000psi (i think )
solinoid control

i got a doubleover center valve fitted directly to the white roller motor on the winch, so if there is any loss of hyd oil, ie a hose break etc the winch will hold its load...

very important in a hyd set up is once you have picked a pump and its flow capacity MAKE SURE EVERY PART OF THE SYSTEM WILL FLOW THIS RATE....

hoses, fittings, filters, motor, valves, EVERYTHING

also keep your main suction line(from tank to pump) short as possible

i think this set up cost me between 3k and 4k, that sounds alot but consider a everything is brand new,
good quality winch = $1400
pump and pto = $1000

i am very happy with it so far, but am yet to really give it a good work out

and i dont think it would cost that much more to get it to comp spec..
cheers, serg

[vanbox]

another thing a lot of people overlook with electric winches is the cost of batteries, wiring and alternators to keep power to them.

i am by no means an expect and realise there is more to hydraulic winches too...but im sure there could be some very competitive hydraulic ones with the same coin thrown at them some of the front runners put into their electrics ($15k ++)

my 2c

PAUL

[uninformed]

with the line speed that hyd can achive and the crawl ratios that alot of winch challenge run, there is no reason that u could not winch and drive

serg

[chunderlicious]

if you go hydrolic dont go PTO most often all that is needed it to put preasure on the front wheels to drive. For exanple a pto, either hydrolic or mechanical, will try to pull the vehicle through an obsticle. With an electric you can use the winch to pull onto the rock or obsticle n drive the wheel up it.

The best setup would be engine driven hydrolic with ability to drive wheels.

dude, with the majority of PTO winches you can drive and winch at the same time. just have to take out of neutral

as for toy 08v saying no comp guys run them, seen sandy bohmans GQ lately( i think its him with the tiger paint) i havent seen a winch as fast as that. even with a vehicle attached and winching behind it it still puked faster then a 24V 6HP highmount.

[1MadEngineer]

just thought u might like to know what some modded electric winches are capable of, maybe 1MAD ENGINEER may also want to update hims info too.

My mates winch challenge comp rig (a orange 40) is running twin 9.5hp 24v motors, twin gearboxes, modded drum, etc, would easily pull at least 42m/min under load,

when we first got the winch running and spoiled on the cable across a flat concrete carpark, we used my hilux (which weighs just over 2.5ton) in park in the auto with hand break on it just skull dragged it the entire way across the car park in less than a minute(the cable is 42m long).

Now u cant say that isnt loaded up. Check out what some of the winch challenge guys are doing to their winches cause NONE are using PTOs and man some of those electric winches haul.

i think you will find approx 4500lb of force generated ( cant change the laws of physics ).
sounds like one of the best setups in the country!!! i like!!!

[nastytroll]

if you go hydrolic dont go PTO most often all that is needed it to put preasure on the front wheels to drive. For exanple a pto, either hydrolic or mechanical, will try to pull the vehicle through an obsticle. With an electric you can use the winch to pull onto the rock or obsticle n drive the wheel up it.

The best setup would be engine driven hydrolic with ability to drive wheels.

dude, with the majority of PTO winches you can drive and winch at the same time. just have to take out of neutral

as for toy 08v saying no comp guys run them, seen sandy bohmans GQ lately( i think its him with the tiger paint) i havent seen a winch as fast as that. even with a vehicle attached and winching behind it it still puked faster then a 24V 6HP highmount.

What vehicles are we talkin here and PTO details? I admit I dont know alot about PTO's but all the cruisers and patrols I have seen and worked on need the transfer in neutral to engage the PTO.

I have made replacement 4140 shafts for PTO winches because of the braking problems linked with no wheels being driven.
I have worked on engine driven hydrolic winches and they are good when set up right.

[chunderlicious]

ive been around both patrols and cruisers driving and winching

[nastytroll]

I have had 2 mates with 75s lc that needed transfer in neutral for pto to engage, and one bloke that converted a GU to GQ pto also needed tranfer in neutal.
So I have not seen either of these be able to be driven and winched at the same time.
Are you now talkin spirit/gods winch?

[chunderlicious]

spirit winch is driven off the PTO shaft, kim boltons PTO that he had drove and winched.....

do they do something to them, cn they not be put back into gear after activation? thats all i did

[dwaynes]

I have a pto on a GQ and i can drive and winch at the same time

[uninformed]

any landrover that has the abilty to have a pto(which is most of them) can be engaged in low range/high range and netral

serg

[frp88]

I have a PTO in my middy and to get 40-50m a minute is a piece off piss that is stock. I can drive but I don't unless there is a log or a rock to jump on to.

[nastytroll]

thanks for the info guy's

[Newhouse]

I think that if you looked around and sourced your parts second hand, a very competitive hydraulic set-up would be acheivable.

Maybe if a couple of people started using them and saw what is capable I think more people would use them.

[uninformed]

if it is true that people are spending up to 15k on electric.....

you could build a full custom winch and hyd system for that that would kill any electiclal set up

serg

[11_evl]

im mainly interested in hydrolic winch because ive got most of the bit to go full hydro steer and rear steer as well and wanted to tie the winch into the system as well

[uninformed]

ok well now if you are talking running the steering and winching of the same system/pump, this gets a little more difficult.... but can be done.

shit look at cranes, farm machinery etc...

im thinking of a variable something pump...hahahaha

where it has pistons????? someone help im out of my depth and drowning

volvo make some shit hot hyd. stuff

serg

[-Scott-]

Coming from somebody who doesn't have a winch, and doesn't (currently) want one...

The one potential benefit I can see in an electric winch is that it doesn't need the engine running. I guess there may be rare occasions where that's an issue.

Of course, then you need to consider battery size - how long can you continue to winch at full load before your batteries are farked.

(Purely technical interest, hoping 1MadEngineer can help.

Dragging the 'lux across the carpark. Did you calculate for 2 wheels or 4 wheels locked? Unless I'm missing something, I expect that would make a significant difference? As I said, a purely technical query, not particularly relevant to the thread.)

Now for the internet equivalent of thinking out loud:

Working with the 4500lb figure: Say 2000kg, or 20,000N. Round cable length to 40m. 20kN over 40m = 800kJ of work.

To make my mental arithmetic easier, I'll say it took 80 seconds, so that's 10kW average power. Using a 24V system, I'll round that to 400A average.

Cheating with the mental arithmetic again, say the 80 seconds is 2% of an hour, TOY-08V's winching effort required in the order of 80Ah of battery capacity (from each battery, if that's two 12V batteries in series.) Yes, I'm working on the "engine stalled" scenario, so alternator input isn't being considered.

But that's not two 80Ah batteries, because that 80Ah capacity presumes 4A discharge (C20 rate) - not 400A.

Consider huge internal losses due to the huge current draw and I doubt 2 x 120Ah batteries would do the job - and they'd be pretty much rooted at the end of it.

Throw in an arbitrary 50% depth of discharge (because we really want to do this regularly ) and suddenly there's four 120Ah batteries weighing down the 4by.

So - anybody want to do that with a calculator/excel, and find where I went wrong?

[1MadEngineer]

Coming from somebody who doesn't have a winch, and doesn't (currently) want one...

The one potential benefit I can see in an electric winch is that it doesn't need the engine running. I guess there may be rare occasions where that's an issue.

Of course, then you need to consider battery size - how long can you continue to winch at full load before your batteries are farked.

(Purely technical interest, hoping 1MadEngineer can help.

Dragging the 'lux across the carpark. Did you calculate for 2 wheels or 4 wheels locked? Unless I'm missing something, I expect that would make a significant difference? As I said, a purely technical query, not particularly relevant to the thread.)

Now for the internet equivalent of thinking out loud:

Working with the 4500lb figure: Say 2000kg, or 20,000N. Round cable length to 40m. 20kN over 40m = 800kJ of work.

To make my mental arithmetic easier, I'll say it took 80 seconds, so that's 10kW average power. Using a 24V system, I'll round that to 400A average.

Cheating with the mental arithmetic again, say the 80 seconds is 2% of an hour, TOY-08V's winching effort required in the order of 80Ah of battery capacity (from each battery, if that's two 12V batteries in series.) Yes, I'm working on the "engine stalled" scenario, so alternator input isn't being considered.

But that's not two 80Ah batteries, because that 80Ah capacity presumes 4A discharge (C20 rate) - not 400A.

Consider huge internal losses due to the huge current draw and I doubt 2 x 120Ah batteries would do the job - and they'd be pretty much rooted at the end of it.

Throw in an arbitrary 50% depth of discharge (because we really want to do this regularly ) and suddenly there's four 120Ah batteries weighing down the 4by.

So - anybody want to do that with a calculator/excel, and find where I went wrong?

hey scott!

don't worry mate i did the exact same figures!! (and i came up with ~390A
) and of course this is all assuming 100% effeciency. I was merely pointy out how to work out the REAL power of some of these winchs. I am lucky, i used to have to do a lot of load certification certificates under the crane code, so i have a lot of the correct test gear at work (load cells . . . ) and the few "comp" winchs i have tested have never performed at the load levels people have specified. Yes they were fast, but not at full load!! but that is purely a by-product of series wound motors.

[Doggy]

I have had 2 mates with 75s lc that needed transfer in neutral for pto to engage, and one bloke that converted a GU to GQ pto also needed tranfer in neutal.
So I have not seen either of these be able to be driven and winched at the same time.
Are you now talkin spirit/gods winch?

I have a PTO on my GQ and I can drive while winching, I just chose not to most of the time

[Patroler]

MQs drive the pto off the gbox output shaft and the transfer can operate in any selected gear irrespective of what the pto is doing, as long as the main gbox is in anything but neutral it will winch.

[1MadEngineer]

In selecting a drive system for a winch, there are a lot of considerations which must be taken into account. First is the required horsepower to drive the winch at maximum required performance corrected for efficiencies. Efficiency of the drive system as well as losses in the winch such as driving the level wind must be taken into account.

There are many interrelated factors that contribute to the calculations that have to be made to create a winch design. The starting point is to determine the horsepower necessary to handle the load which is a function of the load to be lifted and the speed at which this load must be lifted.

HPc = (L)(S)/550

Where
HPc = raw cable horsepower
L = load in pounds
S = speed in feet/second
or HPc = (L)(S)/76.2

where:
HPc = raw cable horsepower
L = load in Kg.
S = meters/sec


This is raw cable horsepower and does not allow for any efficiencies, losses or safety factor. Bending the cable over sheaves and around the drum takes power and for large stiff cable, this can be surprisingly large (perhaps 10%). The mechanical efficiency of the winch with good quality bearings is usually of the order of 92-95% without a level wind which in itself can account for 5-10% of losses. If the cable wrap around the level wind requires the level wind to work against the cable at a substantial wrap angle, then an additional 10% power loss may be experienced. The result of these mechanical factors in the basic winch mechanism could result in an overall winch losses of 15% to 38%.

The efficiency of the prime mover that drives the winch must also be considered to determine the input power to the winch. Typical drives such as hydraulic motors have losses of 5-10% and electric motor losses are 4-5%. The other components used that must be considered are the gear reducer losses which are 4-5%, the motor controller for variable speed motors at 10% and any other losses such as losses in hydraulic piping. If the requirement states that the winch is to be electro-hydraulic, then the losses in the electric motor (5%) must be added to the losses in the hydraulic pump (5-10%) and the losses in the hydraulic motor (5-10%) plus flow losses (usually 5%) to result in an overall loss of 20%-50% for this system.

The overall result of the above discussion is that depending on the drive system specified and the quality of components chosen, the overall losses could be as low as 30% for an electric drive winch using a variable speed AC controller (such as a flux vector drive) and as much as 68% for a poorly designed electro hydraulic winch. Therefore the actual horsepower input to the system can be expressed as follows:

HPi = HPc/(1-L)

where:
HPi = horsepower input required to the system
HPc = cable horsepower calculated above, and
L = winch system losses as discussed above.

As a practical rule of thumb for an electric drive winch, the input power required will be 1.4 to 1.5 times the cable horsepower and, for an electro hydraulic winch (which is incidentally the lowest efficiency drive method), the input power required will be 2.0-3.0 times the cable horsepower.

[me3@neuralfibre.com]

I'm impressed 1MadEngineer. Cool stuff.

So is there any reason a low mount winch can't be as good as a single motor high mount?
If the motor was the same wattage, the gear ratio the same, and the drum diameter increased to the same?

Also, are you aware of any numbers for how many HP can be pulled from V Belt's before it gets impractical?

Thanx
Paul