Series leaf suspension

[Strange Rover]

Ive got a 1950 Series 1 80in Landrover that im wanting to turn into a fun machine. Its not for competition just a weekend toy. There wont be much in the way of Landrover drivetrain left - going to try to squeeze in a comodore V6, T700, LT230 with landcruza 60 series diffs and power steering.

I really want to run leaf springs so does anybody have any pointers in trying to set up leafs in a series vehicle?

Should I just run the stock packs (mine are about 65mm wide which I believe is the same springs that are in the series 2 and 3?)? Should I run parabolics? Or swap the springs out for something longer.

The stock springs seem to flex fairly well - Im not sure if I "need" to have more flex but if I can get it easily then more is always nice.

I think I really will need the rear springs to be nice and stable. I would imagine the sort of driving this machine will be doing will involve lots of throttle so having somehting that doesent axle wrap and hop and carry on is probably fairly important - probably more important than outright flex. If it comes down to it can always run a traction bar but would be nice to not run one cause they cause other issues in themselves. Hopefully staying spring under should make it climb well.

Really want to be able to stitch up Nissans and Toyotas on the trail and definately need to be able to stitch up any Suzuki so will be fun to see where this ends up...

Sam

[DK]

Sounds awesome Sam and some build pics would be nice.Something different i like the sounds of it.

Ben(IsuzuRover) would be the man to talk to about series leaf springs and i'm sure he'll chime in at some point.

[cpmurray]

Sam,
If it is a 1950 80", then you will unfortunately have the narrow springs all around. These are unique to the 80" series 1, and are prone to breaking. Somewhere in 1951 they went to a wider spring on the front, and somewhere in 1953/1954 they went to the wider springs all around, which are interchangeable all the way up to the Series 3.

If you have the later wide springs, then parabolics are apparently the way to go, but if you have the narrow springs, then your only options, without replacing the spring mounts on the chassis is to get a set made or import a set from the UK, as it is almost impossible to find a decent set second hand.

If you are unsure whether you have the wide or narrow springs there are a couple of things to check.

If your front springs have the shackle plate at the front of the spring, then you have narrow springs all around. If the front spring has the shackle plate at the rear of the spring, then the front is the wide spring. If you have a wide springs on the front, the narrow spring is visibly narrower than the wide, but all 80" Land Rovers came with narrow rear springs so unless someone has changed something, or you don't have an 80" that is what they will be.
My 80" which is a 51 manufacturing year, but came off the assembly line around october 1950 has wide front springs and narrow rear.
Also, it might be worth checking what transfercase you have, as you may have one with constant 4wd if it is a 1950.

Clear as mud?

The only other issue you will have with getting decent wheel travel out of the rear axle, is the very short rear prop shaft.

[Strange Rover]

Sam,
If it is a 1950 80", then you will unfortunately have the narrow springs all around. These are unique to the 80" series 1, and are prone to breaking. Somewhere in 1951 they went to a wider spring on the front, and somewhere in 1953/1954 they went to the wider springs all around, which are interchangeable all the way up to the Series 3.

If you have the later wide springs, then parabolics are apparently the way to go, but if you have the narrow springs, then your only options, without replacing the spring mounts on the chassis is to get a set made or import a set from the UK, as it is almost impossible to find a decent set second hand.

If you are unsure whether you have the wide or narrow springs there are a couple of things to check.

If your front springs have the shackle plate at the front of the spring, then you have narrow springs all around. If the front spring has the shackle plate at the rear of the spring, then the front is the wide spring. If you have a wide springs on the front, the narrow spring is visibly narrower than the wide, but all 80" Land Rovers came with narrow rear springs so unless someone has changed something, or you don't have an 80" that is what they will be.
My 80" which is a 51 manufacturing year, but came off the assembly line around october 1950 has wide front springs and narrow rear.
Also, it might be worth checking what transfercase you have, as you may have one with constant 4wd if it is a 1950.

Clear as mud?

The only other issue you will have with getting decent wheel travel out of the rear axle, is the very short rear prop shaft.

OK - its got the wide springs up front and narrow in the rear. I was probably going to move the rear hangers a bit anyway for a bit more wheelbase to fit the drivetrain in so I may as well set it up to suit the wider springs at the same time.

The chassis number checked out as a 1950 model (#06100190) but it probably was made similarily to yours.

The rear shaft is really short...the v6/t700/lt230 works out to be a longer drivetrain than the origional so I really have to stretch the wheelbase to fit everything in. If I used the short front springs in the rear I can get it to 88" and the rear driveshaft will be the same length as standard. We have done some really short highangle driveshafts in the buggies so I should be able to get somehting to work. Of course I want it to not vibrate on the highway so that might be another story. If the wide rear springs are the same length as the narrow rears then it will get me to about 86" and should still work. Basically I plan to put the rear shackle mount right at the end of the chassis.

Ill post up some pics soon. Its a really cool little car - but thankfully not origional enough to not modify - its got the wrong motor and radiator and lots of other little bits hacked up already. Currently drives but its got no brakes.

Sam

[cpmurray]

OK - its got the wide springs up front and narrow in the rear. I was probably going to move the rear hangers a bit anyway for a bit more wheelbase to fit the drivetrain in so I may as well set it up to suit the wider springs at the same time.

The chassis number checked out as a 1950 model (#06100190) but it probably was made similarily to yours.

The rear shaft is really short...the v6/t700/lt230 works out to be a longer drivetrain than the origional so I really have to stretch the wheelbase to fit everything in. If I used the short front springs in the rear I can get it to 88" and the rear driveshaft will be the same length as standard. We have done some really short highangle driveshafts in the buggies so I should be able to get somehting to work. Of course I want it to not vibrate on the highway so that might be another story. If the wide rear springs are the same length as the narrow rears then it will get me to about 86" and should still work. Basically I plan to put the rear shackle mount right at the end of the chassis.

Sam,
You could also move the front axle forward, as this is what the factory did when they went from the 86" to 88". This would allow you to move the whole drive train forward 2". You will notice that the front of the front spring mounts is not right at the front of the chassis, like on an 88" or 109".

[Strange Rover]

Just found this thread...

http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modul ... hp?t=37883

Also here putting the longer rear springs up front works well also. This should also move the front axle forward if I redo the front chassis mount and retain the rear shackle.

Sam

[def90]

hey sam just make sure you give me a bell when your ready to take the little monster for a spin!!

by the way, can get the 90 engineered for a 5L at this stage, if i can't get to 5.7L then i'll probably run with a stroked rover 3.9L.

what's the time frame on the 'midget'?

[modman]

toy 60 series rear leafs all round are an option.
long, cheap and a big bush for flex.
does help they are dirt cheap from the wreckers.
unless you soa they will fit the diffs easily with some trickery.
david

[ISUZUROVER]

Just found this thread...

http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modul ... hp?t=37883

Also here putting the longer rear springs up front works well also. This should also move the front axle forward if I redo the front chassis mount and retain the rear shackle.

Sam

Hi Sam - sounds like a cool project. Here are some pics to go with that link you posted:

My first go at custom rears (ignore the ridiculously long shackles)


One new, one old:


A long way from full compression:


Front (also not full compression)


This isn't full travel - but gives you some idea of what it flexes like:


Series Landies seem to have more issues with front axle wrap than rear - combined with the torque effect of the engine. When you lose momentum on a hill, the front end will twist, then hop off the ground (and unload) then the same will continue - some people call it pig-rooting. Apparently a torque rod from the top of the front diff fixes this problem, but I haven't tried it yet (but it definitely is a problem - I have dints in my shocks from the swivel housings to prove it!). Apparently the front springs on the rear setup helps reduce axle-wrap.

Apart from the above, I am very happy with my setup. It has enough travel for me, feels stable and I have been surprised on many occasions how easily I have driven stuff. I don't have any rear axle-wrap problems, but I only have 70Bhp on a good day (at sea level!!!).

Parabolics are great for the road - they flex like coils over small bumps because they have no interleaf friction. I have not seen a parabolic-equipped landie with the same overall travel as mine though (except the one or two getting around with whacky-shackles - no thanks...), and the spring rates on paper are very stiff.

Any idea what sort of weight you will have on each corner???

[Strange Rover]

Any idea what sort of weight you will have on each corner???

I would hope overall weight will be less than 1400kg - I really dont know how realistic this weight will be...the buggies we have built with this same drivetrain weigh about 1250kg. The rear driveshaft is going to be really, really short so Im also guessing weight distribution will be close to 50%front so each corner will be about 350kg...less unsprung weight...say 275kg on each spring.

Im almost thinking of trying stock factory series 2/series 3 rear springs all round (the 160lb/in) havnt tried to buy some of these...FWD sell replacement springs but I carnt imagine they will be the 160lb/in but will have a look this week.

Im my mind Im thinking that if this rig is very light and low with a short wheelbase then I shouldnt need much travel...should be able to manouvere around most articulation issues.

I really looking forward to building this. For me it will be really different and should be heaps of fun. I want it to be setup really light and somehting I can drive with heaps of momentum and throttle.

Sam

[Strange Rover]

toy 60 series rear leafs all round are an option.
long, cheap and a big bush for flex.
does help they are dirt cheap from the wreckers.
unless you soa they will fit the diffs easily with some trickery.
david

The 60 series diffs have still got the factory 60 series springs on them so Ill have a look at them...Im not sure if I can use really long springs cause Im going to struggle for wheelbase with the ultra short body and chassis...definately worth a measure up though since they are already bolted to the diffs.

Sam

[Strange Rover]

hey sam just make sure you give me a bell when your ready to take the little monster for a spin!!

by the way, can get the 90 engineered for a 5L at this stage, if i can't get to 5.7L then i'll probably run with a stroked rover 3.9L.

what's the time frame on the 'midget'?

Ive collected most the the critical parts...just got to get hold of some springs to use. Then have to fab up an adapter for the T700 to LT230 (done haeps of these before - will probably make up three of them) Bolt the transfer to the engine/gearbox and then Im good to start putting it all together.

Im hoping it should all fit together fairly easily...nothing like a fast build to keep the motivation up.

Sam

[Strange Rover]

Found Slunnie's "Ute2 Resurection!" build up thread.

http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/phpBB2/vi ... highlight=

Its almost scary how close this build up is to what Im planning...great info for my build.



Sam

[ISUZUROVER]

Any idea what sort of weight you will have on each corner???

I would hope overall weight will be less than 1400kg - I really dont know how realistic this weight will be...the buggies we have built with this same drivetrain weigh about 1250kg. The rear driveshaft is going to be really, really short so Im also guessing weight distribution will be close to 50%front so each corner will be about 350kg...less unsprung weight...say 275kg on each spring.

Im almost thinking of trying stock factory series 2/series 3 rear springs all round (the 160lb/in) havnt tried to buy some of these...FWD sell replacement springs but I carnt imagine they will be the 160lb/in but will have a look this week.

Im my mind Im thinking that if this rig is very light and low with a short wheelbase then I shouldnt need much travel...should be able to manouvere around most articulation issues.

I really looking forward to building this. For me it will be really different and should be heaps of fun. I want it to be setup really light and somehting I can drive with heaps of momentum and throttle.

Sam

Sounds possible if you don't add too much extre steelwork (cage?). One of the manuals I have lists weights of 1200kg SWB and 1500kg LWB, but doesn't say for which body type. My ex-mil 109 weighs about 1800kg in the same spec as in the picture above.

Stock SWB Petrol springs all round would probably work well - if you can find some. The original springs had 4.2, 4.4 and 4.8 mm thick leaves - which are hard to find these days. All the aftermarket (e.g. FWD) springs I have seen use 5mm leaves instead. So the SWB petrol fronts I bought from FWD (9x5 mm leaves) had a rate of 315 lb/in when they should have had 240 lb/in. I had to remove 3 leaves to get them to flex properly. The same setup should work fairly well for you.

An aftermarket SWB rear pack (11x5 mm) would be around 375 lb/in!!! Rather than buy new springs, I would try and pick up a set of rear 8 or 9 leaf springs (8x7.1 mm) from a LWB. 3 of these leaves works out to around 160 lb/in as well. I would probably be inclined top use the main, 2nd and 4th leaf. If rear axle wrap is a problem, you could probably use one of the short leaves (7/8/9) to help limit it.

The original springs seem to be made from better steel than the aftermarket ones. IME If you temper them after resetting they will hold their new shape.

EDIT - extended (military) shackles might be a good idea to get a bit more droop with the same length spring???

Look forward to the buildup pics!

[Slunnie]

Found Slunnie's "Ute2 Resurection!" build up thread.

http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/phpBB2/vi ... highlight=

Its almost scary how close this build up is to what Im planning...great info for my build.



Sam

I'm usually bludging info from you! I've just updated the thread in that link to include brakes, fuel, exhaust etc, but I'm pretty sure I've got more pics and text to get it right up to date. I'm glad the info has been helpful though. When I initially started doing this stuff I built a SOA SWB with the V8/LT95 behind a standard facia using a Disco rear shaft up front, but the rear shaft wasn't going to work, so I ended up coiling up the rear and pushing out to 100" which then allowed it to run a Hilux DC shaft. In the end I scrapped and when to 109". I guess if you push the facia forward and keep the engine as forward as possible it's a lot more likely to work at the rear at 88".

This is with the V8/LT95/SOA/88". The rear output was sitting just under the rear bulkhead, so you can see the relationship between that and the rear axle. I guess the rear propshaft would need to have been at about 20cm and 45 degrees!


Pushing it out to 100" was ok with a Hilux front DC shaft used in the rear. but as you're SUA you'd get a better or shorter setup. I dunno if you want to be moving a S1 facia or if the V6/T700/LT230 setup measures up shorter to give a better rear prop length.

[Strange Rover]

Pushing it out to 100" was ok with a Hilux front DC shaft used in the rear. but as you're SUA you'd get a better or shorter setup. I dunno if you want to be moving a S1 facia or if the V6/T700/LT230 setup measures up shorter to give a better rear prop length.

The v6/t700/lt230 does work out to be alot shorter...IIRC its almost 200mm (that number does seem a bit big though...Ill measure again later)

I really want to keep the entire motor behind the front axle and have to sump of the motor sitting on the belly plate. With the motor behind the front axle the radiator should fit behind the stock facia. Pushing the front axle forward gives me more room but gets me closer to the facia. The V6 is a really good shape for sitting behind the front axle...everything clears the pumpkin and tailshaft really well...much better than a rover engine...the oil filter on the V6 is mounted much heigher than how its located on teh V8.

An initial rough measure up says with the motor behind the front axle and an 88in WB the rear prop shaft should be stock length...this is still very short but I figure it works from factory and has decent flex and doesent bind so I should be able to do better with better drive shaft joints/clearancing etc.

Sam

[Slunnie]

That sounds like it will be a good setup then, as you know there are some good hiflex driveshafts around. I agree re the V8 oil filter. That was the limiting factor for engine height over the axles for me when I initially had it setup behind a stock IIa facia. I don't recall what the measurements are, but I'm pretty sure the LC60 pinions were about the same length as the hiluxs which I think were also very close to the Rovers.

[RUFF]

Sam why not go V6 C4 LT230? Should fix the tailshaft issues.

[Dave_S]

Sam I have a set of new 2 leaf Rocky Mountain parabolic rear springs sitting around doing nothing if you're interested........

[Strange Rover]

Sam why not go V6 C4 LT230? Should fix the tailshaft issues.

I almost could and probably will if I have too to make it all fit.

I prefer the t700 cause its alot less work to setup (C4 needs adapters at both ends as well as a modified output shaft...) and the t700 has lower first gear and overdrive as well.

Sam

[ISUZUROVER]

Sam I have a set of new 2 leaf Rocky Mountain parabolic rear springs sitting around doing nothing if you're interested........

I think they would work well - I wanted to try them and you wouldn't let me!

[Strange Rover]

Sam I have a set of new 2 leaf Rocky Mountain parabolic rear springs sitting around doing nothing if you're interested........

So are these what I should run??

Whats the theory/experience on these sorts of springs. How well do they control axle wrap?

The only thing that worries me about running parabolics is that I would imagine they would be very hard to "tune". With normal leaf springs I believe I can add or subtract leafs, spring clamps, military wraps, etc etc.

Are the parabolice worth trying straight up?? Or should I start with traditional leafs??

Sam

[ISUZUROVER]

Sam I have a set of new 2 leaf Rocky Mountain parabolic rear springs sitting around doing nothing if you're interested........

So are these what I should run??

Whats the theory/experience on these sorts of springs. How well do they control axle wrap?

The only thing that worries me about running parabolics is that I would imagine they would be very hard to "tune". With normal leaf springs I believe I can add or subtract leafs, spring clamps, military wraps, etc etc.

Are the parabolice worth trying straight up?? Or should I start with traditional leafs??

Sam

2-leaf rears are about 180-200lb/in and made for SWB landies. I think they should flex well - and probably be as good as any other (of similar weight) in controlling axle-wrap. If you want all the info on them grab a copy of the SAE automotive leaf spring design manual.

But you are right - you can't tune them like semi-elliptics. All you could do would be add another leaf.

[Slunnie]

Just a thought. What about the lexus V8 to Toy tranny and hilux t/f then run them out to Hilux axles for clearance? The hilux rear is centred also to suit the hilux t/f. I'm not sure what the motor and transmission lengths are, though surely they're not as long as the T700/LT230???

[Strange Rover]

Just a thought. What about the lexus V8 to Toy tranny and hilux t/f then run them out to Hilux axles for clearance? The hilux rear is centred also to suit the hilux t/f. I'm not sure what the motor and transmission lengths are, though surely they're not as long as the T700/LT230???

We used to muck around with hilux transfers about 5 years ago (Ruff ran one and BJ on Roids ran one also - BJ actually ran the lexus V8 as well). We could almost break them at will...input shafts, output shafts - all sorts of stuff. I would never put a hilux transfer in anything that I wanted to give a hard time.

Basically commited to the v6,t700,lt230 cause we have done so much with them over the years so its really easy to run this setup. To go to something else would almost be starting from scratch.

Sam

[andrew e]

A bit left field, but have you thought about using a FWD gearbox and diff connected to the commo v6? It would be way shorter. you would lose high range though.......


Are you getting your inspiration from SERIOUS ONE on pirate? Every time i read about his car it makes me want an 80 inch.

Andy

ps you need any lt230s? i got a few.

[Strange Rover]

A bit left field, but have you thought about using a FWD gearbox and diff connected to the commo v6? It would be way shorter. you would lose high range though.......


Are you getting your inspiration from SERIOUS ONE on pirate? Every time i read about his car it makes me want an 80 inch.

Andy

ps you need any lt230s? i got a few.

Definately need high range - I dont want to have to trailer this thing.

Serious One...love that rig also. Micheal Slade has created a really stock looking vehicle with a late model setup underneith (coil springs etc)

This build is going to be more inspired by some of the "trials" machines that are in the UK - really basic and really simple. I want it to be something that is really lots of fun to drive. It doesent need to be something that ultimately capable - Ive got tube buggies that are that...and tube buggies make difficult tracks really easy to drive so to have any "fun" in them you need to find really, really hard tracks.

I guess I'm wanting to start back at the beginning - something unlocked with a very limited suspension setup. Somehting that needs lots of "driving" to get through moderate to hard trails. I want good power and strong axles because I love to drive with throttle and momentum - the drivetrain Im putting into this thing should suit this style. So inspired by the SERIOUS ONE on pirate...maybe...already decided to borrow the name though.

Sam

[ISUZUROVER]

something unlocked with a very limited suspension setup.

So no traction control???

[Michele]

Serious(ly)?


Sam,post pics of the S1 in current state!

[uninformed]

sorry if i missed it, but what size tyres will you be running and how will these affect the handling etc,

great read and sounds like alot of fun...

soft or hard top? roll bar?
cheers, Serg