R12 AIRCON GAS IN BRISBANE PLEASE?

[adriand82]

Hey guys, I have a GQ Patrol in Brisbane that is in need of R12 aircon gas as opposed to R134a. Has anyone found anywhere that will re-gas with the old stuff? If so where and rough price?

Thanks in advance, Adrian.

[matto]

the only place that will have actuall r12 is the defence force and the price is a carton. If i was still there i would hook you up.

[Mousie]

DUDE r12 is fazed out they do not make it any more it is illigal to have,

R134a is a replacement you can put it in and it will work, you can even mix this to and it works

i am a fridgey and i have replaced and mixed the 2 100s of times

you wont have a drama

cheers

[Shadow]

DUDE r12 is fazed out they do not make it any more it is illigal to have,

R134a is a replacement you can put it in and it will work, you can even mix this to and it works

i am a fridgey and i have replaced and mixed the 2 100s of times

you wont have a drama

cheers

i was told the seals on the inlet/outlet of the pump will not handle r134a and will eventually fail? Hogwash?

[Mousie]

i personally have never had an issue,
it runs under the same preasures and can run the same oil so i wouldnt see how ....

[chunderlicious]

Hey guys, I have a GQ Patrol in Brisbane that is in need of R12 aircon gas as opposed to R134a. Has anyone found anywhere that will re-gas with the old stuff? If so where and rough price?

Thanks in advance, Adrian.

this is when its good to know a fridgey... i know a guy who still has some. it is illegal now so it will cost you ALOT of CASH. i dont know if he still screws with it and cars but he might. PM me and ill see if hes still doing it and an exact price. but it is illegal now and unused.

[giantracing]

I GOT IT........... WHAT DO YOU NEED. I USE IT IN ALL MY A/C REGASES. AND R134A IN CUSTOMERS CARS

[AZZA'S HJ47]

envirocool in wacol will do it i got my fittings changed to r134a and a new recicer dryer fitted and gassed for around $70

[adriand82]

envirocool in wacol will do it i got my fittings changed to r134a and a new recicer dryer fitted and gassed for around $70

seems the best option. i had no idea what was involved in the changeover......

[Chucky]

It dosn't cost much to change over to the new gas. Is it worth it trying to do the dodgy?

[ISUZUROVER]

Hydrocarbon is the way to go on old R12 systems!!!

From another forum:

Changing to R134a is a pain in the bum, and in most cases quite expensive.

If your lucky and don't have to change the compressor, the TX valve and the condenser - and you would have to be VERY lucky indeed to get away with it.

You would still have to remove the compressor, drain all the old oil, have the complete system flushed, change all the o rings, replace the reciever drier (should be changed normally anyway).

However you could always take the easier route - and get better performance than seen with R134a - and change to hydrocarbon refrigerant.

Yes it's flammable - but so is petrol, diesel, engine oil, brake fluid etc., - but a typical car will use just 250 - 300 gramms of the stuff - (equiv to less than half a ltr) and you have 60 - 100 ltrs of fuel in your petrol tank - hardly relevant

.................and guess what - apart from changing the filter drier (about $30.00) nothing else needs changing - same oil, same tx valve, same condenser.

If you want to find out how to charge with HC's just pm me, and I'll point you in the right direction.

Ladas

I know a few people using it who are very happy, I will be changing soon too.


Some more info from the same guy...

You do not use LPG in air conditioning systems - standard LPG is irregular in the HC content so matching pressure/teperatures curves would be impossible.

In addition to this standard LPG contains too many contaminants to be good for a system, sulphur, oxides, moisture etc., etc.,

The gases on offer today are highly refined, carefully blended high quality hydrocarbons - they are blended to match the temp/press curves of R12 and R134a.

Procrastinate (sorry if spelling is incorrect but its late) using HC in auto air conditioning is not illegal anywhere in australia - for a while it was banned by clause 242 in NSW - but that was repealed (Dela Bosca ) over 3 years ago.

Safety issues - yep its flammable - and all 250 to 300 gramms of it could catch fire - however the 90 ltrs (97 kgs) of petrol, diesel or maybe 75 ltrs (40 kgs) of the fuel you pump in every day - send down the front of the car and then burn is a damn site more dangerous than 250 / 300 grams in an AC system

Next on flamability - regardless of what gas is in your sustem - it burns - maybe not at 460 Deg C like HC - but maybe at 750 Deg C with R12 or R134a - but the main point here is its not the gas that starts the fire - its the lubricant / oil - which has an auto iginition point of less than 220 Deg C when under pressure (which it is when in a AC system thats running) - and when the lubricant burns - the heat generated is in excess of 2000 Deg C - so it doesnt matter what refrigerant you use its going to burn.

The only difference is when HC's burn the by-products are carbon and steam - not critical, but when you burn gases that contain chlorine or flourine the fumes given off are highly toxic and will cause death. Just read an MSDS for R134a - dont take my word for it.

The critical issue from changing from any other refigerant to HC is to get the system clean, so changing oil and reciever driers is a very good idea.

Also if a system has been 'dry' for a while - or even if it is just an old dirty system, adding any new gas can eventuate in leaks because

1) If a system is empty / dry the o rings will dry up and perish - and will not seal.

2) Old dirty systems MAY have the intergrity of o rings held together with gunk/muck/old sticky oil, and when you pump in a new clean refrigerant - this cleans the gunk/muck old sticky oil off - hey presto it leaks - so if you are going to change be prepared to change the O rings (they cost about $5 for the lot) and use the right ones - not normal rubber / black o rings .

Now onto oils

R12 worked well with mineral oil
R134a didnt, so PAG (PolyAlphaGlycol), POE (PolyolEster) and AB (AlkylineBenzol) oils were formulated - these are extremely hygroscopic (yes it is hygro - not hydro) which means it absorbs moisture - water plus flourine or chlorine = acid - -= leaks new evaporator.

HC's will operate well with mineral oils - PAG, POE AB's and POA's

So on a retrofit fro R134a to HC there is no need to change oils. Unless its very dirty/contaminated / saturated in acids.

[ISUZUROVER]

and some more...

A 'proper' conversion from R12 to R134a is an expensive process and unless its done by the book it will never perform properly.

R134a is a very poor substitute - it lacks performance on HOT days due to the relatively low critical temp - it has a high GWP - and has issues with lubricants.

Hydrocarbon refrigerants (NOTICE NOT LPG) are a perfect solution - they do not form acids when moisture is present, they are non toxic - unlike R134a.

HC's have good critical temperature performance matching those of R12.

Typical Land Rovers will have between (+/-) 600 - 1000 g of refrigerant, with a refined, blended purpose engineered hydrocarbon only 200 - 350g is used.

R134a has a GWP of +/- 1500 and an atmospheric lifetime of > 100 years

HC's have a GWP of < 3 with an atmospheric lifetime of less than 1 year.

[Devious]

Changing to R134a is a piece of cake, you need a new reciever drier, last one cost me $22 at bursons, a pair of fittings to convert the R12 fittings to R134a and any lines that you open you will need to replace the 'o' rings with R134a compatible seals. Thats it, as someone said, $70 max.

You can get stuff called Hi-Chill or Minus-30, which is a hydrocarbon based gas, which yes, is flammable, but there is only about 600g of the stuff in a system. I have managed to get much colder temps using that stuff, but I now get R134a for nothing so I use that.

[KiwiBacon]

Your system won't work as well with R134 in it compared to R12 or hydrocarbon gas.

Since R12 is environmentally criminal and illegal, hydrocarbon gases are the perfect choice.
Been running some myself with excellent results. You don't need to be concerned about changing any parts over or seal compatibility either.

[taspatrol]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjtowzVzl_4

[KiwiBacon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjtowzVzl_4

Moral of the story, don't fill your car up with gas and ignite it.

[mkpatrol]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjtowzVzl_4

[Dominator]

you say the fact that 600g of HC gas is nothing compared to 90L of petrol but that petrol does not flow thu the cabin of the car and the fact that it is there doesnt mean it will explode, it needs the right air to fuel ratio. Your refrigerant flows thru the firewall and into the cabin and if there is a leak in the evaporator you have a better chance of an explosion there than if you had a fuel leak.

[adriand82]

gettin off topic towards the end here guys... thanks for the input, i will most likely get fittings and dryer myself and get get it gassed at work for cheap with r134. or envirocool sound good. thanks all.

[KiwiBacon]

you say the fact that 600g of HC gas is nothing compared to 90L of petrol but that petrol does not flow thu the cabin of the car and the fact that it is there doesnt mean it will explode, it needs the right air to fuel ratio. Your refrigerant flows thru the firewall and into the cabin and if there is a leak in the evaporator you have a better chance of an explosion there than if you had a fuel leak.

The gases have stenching agents added so you can smell the smallest trace. Just like lighting your BBQ.
Freon is not something you want to be breathing either.

[Mousie]

sooo mutch bull flying around about this ... makes me laff my ass off

[De-lux]

Sooo.. how much does it cost to recharge my car with regular R134a aircon gas?

[NCpaj]

*Cough* Regass it with LPG *Cough*

[De-lux]

ok well i'm not going to do something illegal or dodgy... Anyone?