wear and tear? -cold starts on WVO

[thehanko]

HI guys,

IM running a mix of diesel and filtered used veg oil.

as expected its hard to start cold.

At the moment im pouring a few buckets of hot water over over the fuel lines, injectors, filter etc to try to warm the fuel a bit.

by doing this it does start - without this its unlikely to start.

my main concern is the extra strain or wear this whole situation is putting on the battery and starter etc as it takes more cranking to get it to start.

I am careful not to let the starter spin for prolonged periods so it doesnt get to hot.

The issue is definitely the temp of the fuel as if its mid day and everything has got a bit warmer it starts fine.

Another option is I have found an inline fuel filter / fuel heater which could replace the current fuel filter. Would this help with starting? or would it do sweet f all as the fuel between the filter and the injectors will still be to cold at start up?

[bogged]

sweet f all as the fuel between the filter and the injectors will still be to cold at start up?

at a guess, I'd say this.

[Shadow]

i think the only good solution is to have 2 tanks, even if you had a 20 litre tank out of a motorbike or something, that you use purely for the first 5mins and last 5 mins of the run.

[-Scott-]

I guess extra time on the glow plugs doesn't make much difference?

[Shadow]

I guess extra time on the glow plugs doesn't make much difference?

only heats the precombustion chambers, not the fuel,

[bogged]

what about a different mixture??
what ratios are you using at moment?? more oil than diesel?

[ISUZUROVER]

Other people have tried blending with Kero or petrol (instead of diesel) to overcome this problem.

I don't know what effect this would have on the life of any components though. Would depend on the age and composition of any rubber hoses/seals, and the lubricity of your blend.

[eliteforce32]

i know some people that run a separate tank as said with just diesel, how ever the other tank is heated, as well as extra fuel lines are heated under engine bay before going into injector pump, i.e extra meter or so run on firewall to pick up engine heat ..... seems a lot of work... just make proper bio

[thehanko]

It doesnt like starting even with a small mix of oil. though i have experimented with a few ratios.

i spoke to a guy a while ago who said he mixed 5% petrol 95% oil and it was fine - but in a patrol.

so today i added 5% petrol to my diesel/oil mix - will report on the differnce when i know.

Eventually i will add another tank and inline electronic fuel switch - but time will tell.

One of my main questions is will the extra cranking shorten the life of battery and starter hugely or just a bit? this might effect how soon i get around to doing a full system.

thanbks for the tips guys.

I haver to start at like 5.50 am tomorrow so this will be a god test for the petrol mix.

[tweak'e]

what injection pump do you have on the motor?

after seeing pics of what filtered used veg oil does to a VE injection pump (started and shutdown on diesel) i wouldn't use SVO at all.

i would be less worried about starter motor damage and start saving for your injection pump rebuild.

i think you would be better off to convert the waste oil to bio diesel, the extra cleaning dureing the conversion process hopefully gets rid of all the crap that builds up in the pump.

[ISUZUROVER]

what injection pump do you have on the motor?

after seeing pics of what filtered used veg oil does to a VE injection pump (started and shutdown on diesel) i wouldn't use SVO at all.

Care to elaborate??? What exactly did it do??? (most) VE pumps have a known problem where the case hardening comes off some of the components - is this what you are referring to?

Thousands of people in europe/US/Australia run VE-pumps on WVO without problems.

[Dzltec]

Im sure they do, but the correct way to run on it is to start and stop on diesel, once the oil has reached 80c then switch over. Filtering is critical. Ve pumps rely on fuel as lubrication, its hard enough to keep them going for a long time just on diesel.

The inline pump is the best candidate for svo or home made bio diesel.

You will burn out a starter motor, maybe a battery and maybe do damage to the pump as the oil will be thick and cause components to become sticky and not move freely.


Is it really worth the trouble??


Andy

[longlux]

Filtering is always critical, if the WVO is put through a 5 micron or finer filter there are no issues.

I have run 50/50 diesel/WVO & had no problems with starting.

I have a friend that was using a two tank system & traveled thousands of km's he never had a problem.

[me3@neuralfibre.com]

I've never seen a starter with worn out bearings.
The brushes will get a bit of a flogging - big deal - who cares there.
I've never seen a worn out crownwheel / pinion.
You *may* overheat it, but it would take a bit - your call on that one. They are pretty solid devices, and don't really worry about heat too much (they handle engine temps no worries)

Starters generally seem to drop windings from old age.

Your battery won't care about working hard. It will care if you run it close to flat - that would be the main thing - keeping it charged.

Paul

[jessie928]

what i would do is run some glow plugs in your fuel line
put a glow plug prepump and put one per cylinder just before the injectors
a quick blast of both will get you going quick smart.
you could run a small tank pre-injector pump with a few glowplugs inserted to keep the oil warm for startup also.

Jes

[thehanko]

I run a 5 micron filter prior to use. I wonder why you dont have any issues with starting long lux? is yours a 1 tank or 2 tank system?

to give you an idea, I had to start at 4.30 am the other day, happened to be the coldest night of the year. I decided to try leaving a 60 watt normal globe under the bonnet shining on filter and injectors etc.

In the morning it started first turn of the key, straight away, but then this morning on the same tank of fuel at 7.30 am it started second turn of the key after say 2 10 second cranks.

I dont think i will have this issue in summer, just trying to work out a solution for winter too.

As for 'is it worth it' questions, time will tell. Im saving about 100 per week in fuel so it should pay for a new fuel pump fairly soon.

Its a rotary fuel pump which apparently is more prone to issue with wvo. I was trying to work out if say the fuel pump off a patrol could be used on a hilux, but have no idea really. I expect not as the hilux pump is mechanical.

BY the way - I think starting is a little better with the unleaded added, but not a huge amount.

[thehanko]

I've never seen a starter with worn out bearings.
The brushes will get a bit of a flogging - big deal - who cares there.
I've never seen a worn out crownwheel / pinion.
You *may* overheat it, but it would take a bit - your call on that one. They are pretty solid devices, and don't really worry about heat too much (they handle engine temps no worries)

Starters generally seem to drop windings from old age.

Your battery won't care about working hard. It will care if you run it close to flat - that would be the main thing - keeping it charged.

Paul

Good to know, I deliberately dont crank it too long, and if it hasnt started after say 3 cranks, then i give it a break.

It starts pretty well after my hot water treatment - just wish there was another way, as i dont have the time to sort out my second tank at the moment, and if it did, i would have rather had it as extra mixed capacity, so i dont need to carry drums of oil on long trips.

[ISUZUROVER]

Im sure they do, but the correct way to run on it is to start and stop on diesel, once the oil has reached 80c then switch over. Filtering is critical. Ve pumps rely on fuel as lubrication, its hard enough to keep them going for a long time just on diesel.

The inline pump is the best candidate for svo or home made bio diesel.

You will burn out a starter motor, maybe a battery and maybe do damage to the pump as the oil will be thick and cause components to become sticky and not move freely.


Is it really worth the trouble??


Andy

If that was wrt my comment - if you read carefully, I was responding to tweak'e's comment - he specifically stated STARTING AND STOPPING ON DIESEL (aka a 2-TANK system).

[longlux]

I run a 5 micron filter prior to use. I wonder why you dont have any issues with starting long lux? is yours a 1 tank or 2 tank system?

I was running a single tank with 50/50 diesel/WVO & never had any starting issues.

What blend ratio is your fuel.

I don't have a WVO source at this time

[tweak'e]

I'm trying to find the pics at the moment. i think the oil was filtered down to 1 micron.
the pump itself didn't wear or pit, it was simply coated with residue out of the oil

edit: i can't find orginal post but i have some of the pics. cheers to whoever orginally posted them.

[longlux]

My take on that is it has not been filtered correctly.

If your going to run a blend or a two tank system.

It needs to be heated so that all moisture is removed, Particulates filtered out to at least 5 microns, 1 is better & all solid fats removed (allow it to cool & rack off the liquid WVO)

[zagan]

I run a 5 micron filter prior to use. I wonder why you dont have any issues with starting long lux? is yours a 1 tank or 2 tank system?

to give you an idea, I had to start at 4.30 am the other day, happened to be the coldest night of the year. I decided to try leaving a 60 watt normal globe under the bonnet shining on filter and injectors etc.

In the morning it started first turn of the key, straight away, but then this morning on the same tank of fuel at 7.30 am it started second turn of the key after say 2 10 second cranks.

I dont think i will have this issue in summer, just trying to work out a solution for winter too.

As for 'is it worth it' questions, time will tell. Im saving about 100 per week in fuel so it should pay for a new fuel pump fairly soon.

Its a rotary fuel pump which apparently is more prone to issue with wvo. I was trying to work out if say the fuel pump off a patrol could be used on a hilux, but have no idea really. I expect not as the hilux pump is mechanical.

BY the way - I think starting is a little better with the unleaded added, but not a huge amount.

You should try and sus out the type of oil your using and see what temp it becomes solid at, your either getting that temp or really close.

I running straight diesel and I am finding it the pump sounds a bit rough, starts straight away but seems to need about 5 mins of warm up then sounds normal after that.

This is in QLD and where I am, have been getting 1mm to 3mm of ice on the window screen so the temps have been getting close to zero, for water to ice up over night.

Starting to heat up again now but still a little rough in the morning.

Did anyone see the first show of ice truckers, they put up sheets etc to keep the cold out over night, because the fuel freezes up but that also causes some problem for the pumps but I can't remeber what happens, anyone else know or remember what got said?

[thehanko]

IM thinking as part of my system ill get an in line fuel heater to go before the fuel pump, so it only ever trys to pump cold mix oil/diesel for a few seconds at start up.

this might not fix the start up issue but might help reduce wear and stickyness in the fuel pump and system.

I run 50/50 diesel and cotton seed oil which is 100% cholesterol free! so it wont clog my cars arteries up bad joke i know.

The 20L drums which sit out side during the night seem the same consistency as normal cooking oil in the house, so its getting thicker sure but not solid - not even close.

The pics with the residue built up in the pump. were they running straight oil or a mix? i would have througt the diesel etc would dissolve that crud.

I really am amazed that yours started no problems with 50/50 long lux, mine is happy with some heat but otherwise it grumbles alot.

i guess ill just keep pouring a bucket of hot water over it until the weather warms up or i fit a second tank.

[thehanko]

hmmm

found this when i did some searching.

http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/ftopic118 ... light=glow

I was wondering if maybe my glow plugs might be average and was looking for some how to check them out pics and found the above link.

Mentions hard to start cold and having to pump the gas for cold starts.

leaking air into the fuel primer area. I wonder if this could be the first part which has let go?

any thoughts?

[Hidatid]

You will be better served by heating your blend ,my car does not like starting on vege oil when cold, even after 40 min from shut down my car is hard to start. If you are seriious about usng Svo and care about the life of you engine /IP then every trip you will need to start up on diesel and at the end of your trip you will need to purge with diesel this will help greatly .I have a 2 tank system on my 75 series with 2 heat exchangers ,travelled 21000 k so far and just rebuilt IP and injectors not related to SVO use ,happy with the set up .Running on svo is not for the lazy ,but with common sense and discipline SVO works well and I will be using it for many years to come If you need help PM me
regards. Andy

[thehanko]

Thanks,

I have just recieved from the states, injector line heaters, to heat up the fuel in the lines prior to starting, effectively an easy version of tipping hot water over them.

Also I got a long in line fuel heater which works off its own thermostat to keep the fuel at an ideal temperature.

Im hoping that with these mods it will be much better. i will keep everyone posted.

Also worth noteing is that I just came back from yamba last week, and cold starts up there were instant, so the extra 5 - 10 deg or so really makes a difference.