SUSPENSION SETUP WINCH CHALLENGES

[poppeye]

am starting to slowly build a winch truck swb patrol so far i am going make it a ute wheelbase extension etc but was wondering what is the best suspension setup any help and pics appreciated

[biggsy]

Keep the truck as low as possible... Maybe a 4-5 inch... Running a 35-37inch tyer...Cut the gards to suit the bigger wheels or maybe a offset rim.
Most of the stanard large shocks are fine..Tuff dog/EFS..Something that can take plenty shock and heat and have long travell....Some good springs as well.. But if you have the money check out wizard performance and he can set you up with the dux nuts of shocks..... But the main thing is a high mount winch fully blown out...Thats whats holding me up..
Hope this helps..But start small and work your way up and talk the guys.. Because you can have the best truck with everything on it but it comes down to the person behind the wheel...

[1MadEngineer]

damn, whata million $$$ Q?

IMO, best bang for $

Superior superflex front 4-5" arms, and Long-arm rear.
FOA 12" travel 2.5" remote res Front shocks
FOA 16 or 18" travel remote res Rear shocks
4 x FOA 2.5" x 4" travel Air bumps
5" lift microalloy springs.

this setup will be heaps cheaper and will give comp winning results. So far the superflex arms have podiumed almost every comp they have entered, they seem to really help in the high speed stuff. Have a chat to Robbie marshal or the BOAB boys they are really having great sucess with this sort of setup. there good blokes and will try and help.
also give the guys at superior eng. or locktup4x4 a call, they should be able to help.

[poppeye]

cheers yeh thought there would be heaps of different answers going wheeling with chris from locktup next weekend will get onto him about it

[1MadEngineer]

cheers yeh thought there would be heaps of different answers going wheeling with chris from locktup next weekend will get onto him about it

chris is a good bloke, i am sure he will help you heaps with this stuff!

[mickyd555]

FOA 16 or 18" travel remote res Rear shocks

I know your suggesting this with a long arm kit but thats a lot of travel isnt it???

I have 12's in mine and have way more travel than i need i think, maybe i have them set up wrong. this is with standard mounting points for all rear arms with a wizard A-Frame for the uppers (what are your thoughts on long arms with the A-Frame).

[1MadEngineer]

FOA 16 or 18" travel remote res Rear shocks

I know your suggesting this with a long arm kit but thats a lot of travel isnt it???

I have 12's in mine and have way more travel than i need i think, maybe i have them set up wrong. this is with standard mounting points for all rear arms with a wizard A-Frame for the uppers (what are your thoughts on long arms with the A-Frame).

we are venturing into the XWC world next season
and we are running 18" FOA's F&R. The move toward well handling highspeed rigs is now the current trend, and if you search for CORR pro4 class trucks you will see what it will eventually become (almost stadium offroad). Even at 18" travel they will be placed along the arm to get 20"+ of travel and keep the frequency/piston speed down. they arent there so much for flex but for the ability to hit 3ft high whoops at 120kph. The FOAs are a cheaper alternative to the big3 but this doesn't mean they aren't as good, they have had great results in the US, just search pirate.



http://www.jeepsunlimited.com/mambo2/in ... &Itemid=26


As for long arm and A frame? there is nothing too bad here. A frames do work well. BUT!!!!!! the bolt on ones use the STD nissan mounting positions which do not have any 'link convergence' and therefore have compromised behaviour. IMO if you are going to use an A frame please at least do it properly and get the link operating in the correct plane geometry with the right amount of squat/anti-squat, otherwise you may as well just kept std top links as we have proved THEY are not restricting the travel.

[Hoonz]

are these shocks going to be affordable by the general public

are you's going to to develop a kit like the ATS 4x4 triple bypass kit?

[1MadEngineer]

are these shocks going to be affordable by the general public

are you's going to to develop a kit like the ATS 4x4 triple bypass kit?

the boys at LOCKTUP4x4 are organising mine and are ridiculously cheap. 4wdbits in nz do them as well.
http://www.4wdbits.co.nz/ProductsList.a ... lection=18

probably around $500ish for a 2.5" x 14"travel remote res which is nearly half what some guys are charging. (eg 2.0" x 14" fox from wizard =$745+)

eg 2.5"x4" air bumps from wizard = $465
2.5"x 4" FOAs from 4wdbits or locktup =~<$300

[Hoonz]

sounds good to me

[mickyd555]

so are you running coil over or a non coil shock?

Can you elaborate further on the A-Frame and anti-squat etc.. I like bolt on bits (mainly for reliability) but i dont really know squat about anti-squat



off topic slightly, is this something you and beebee are doing or is this for Micks truck?

[1MadEngineer]

so are you running coil over or a non coil shock?

Can you elaborate further on the A-Frame and anti-squat etc.. I like bolt on bits (mainly for reliability) but i dont really know squat about anti-squat



off topic slightly, is this something you and beebee are doing or is this for Micks truck?

BB and i are building a new 'highspeed' winch/outback truck aka 'H2' it will have 18" coilovers for the first season and then add some triple bypasses when we add more HP from the 2jzgte TT supra motor .

we did a heap of testing when we came up with the long-arms, and they became a good compromise in the end, to eliminate the massive anti-squat that lifted nissans exhibit. you know when you stand on it around a corner and the rear wants to jack the back of the car and near tip you over! and when you launch it hard! the bumm sits up in the air and just spins the wheels.
the idea is to get the weight of the rig to transfer onto the back tires enough to give better traction when launching and climbing. we played for weeks to get it right, thats probably why micks truck (and rob marshals and others) can drive upto a 30+deg climb - at an angle and just put on the power and go!

our new truck will have very different drive characteristics again, but it will be done purely with a purpose in mind!!

[Booster]

18" front shocks will be interesting, I keen to see how you over come the steering link (tie-relay??) from binding up.

Additionally have you lengthened your radius arms to help lessen the effects that the stock arms would have on a diff cycling 18-20" in regard to camber etc this would be critical at speed?

Keen to see how you have done it.

Daniels(booster)

[1MadEngineer]

I got sent some pics the other day of one of a winch truck on a 30degree ramp. 5"lift superflex front arms EFS shocks(which are the limiting factor). I hope the boys don't mind me showing the pics? This is a good truck, super competitive and well balanced. I think he now has a 'long-arm' rear in it, but not sure.

[coxy321]

Great front flex on that truck - althought the rear doesn't look to be doing too much....

[GASDRX]

The guy asked for WINCH truck suspension setups not STADIUM or out back setups

The winch is where you need to spend the money but you probably already know that.

The second post by biggsy is the most relevant

[CWBYUP]

Great front flex on that truck - althought the rear doesn't look to be doing too much....

I'd be interested to know what the go is with the rear suspensiona as well.

If i can keep the travel in the rear I have and get the front to move like that I would be a happy man.

Nick

[1MadEngineer]

Great front flex on that truck - althought the rear doesn't look to be doing too much....

I'd be interested to know what the go is with the rear suspensiona as well.

If i can keep the travel in the rear I have and get the front to move like that I would be a happy man.

Nick

ther rear can be made to work MUCH better than std. The addition of something similar to the Superior Long-Arm kit is probably the easiest and best way. This allows the rear to flex well but keep all the angles in tow. reducing diff-steer and excessive drivline angles. it also moves the vehicles instant-center forward and down (through link geamoetry) which reduces the all too common 'massive antisquat' that lifted nissans suffer. This anti-squat is why they try to jack/lift/roll when powering on around corners, and also creates that terrible diff hop on steep climbs. The use of long-arms allows the rig to use ALL the flex you can give it, in the pics below we were measuring up for shocks and decided to settle for SHORTER shocks cus' thats all we could get - we use 18" travel Sway Aways, and are putting in the NEW 18"x2.5" FOA remote res shock this weekend.




this is from a run at glasshouse, it shows that even with heaps of flex and no swaybars the rig is still very stable.



another nissan with superflex front and std rear setup 5"lift TD shocks
same spot as above^^.



front is very nice though!!



hope this helps explain things a bit.

[Red Dog 4x4]

It has got EFS 39-7002's in the rear which are 770mm long, When chris drove the front wheel up the ramp the rear had more travil them the front i think its just how the ramp makes the truck travil.

The guy asked for WINCH truck suspension setups not STADIUM or out back setups

The winch is where you need to spend the money but you probably already know that.

The second post by biggsy is the most relevant

All you'vew got to do is look how the trucks are being set up now and this is how thay are building them now, Faster, Tuffer, Bigger Wallet!!!
Don't get me wrong you can still be competive on a budget but you are better of building a race truck that can do Cliffhanger, OBC and winch challenge because no doubt you race one event and them you want to try another only to find out your truck isn't set up for that type of event and it will cost you more coin in the long run.


But most of all remember to go out there and just have some fun.

[coxy321]

Cheers for that - it explains a lot. Two questions...

- What is the vehicles "instant centre"?
- Are the superior long arm kits exactly that? Longer arms (upper and lower) that increase w/base and in turn longer diff end arc?

Are they standard or "special" arm bushes in the rear of that red GQ?

Coxy

[1MadEngineer]

Cheers for that - it explains a lot. Two questions...

- What is the vehicles "instant centre"?
- Are the superior long arm kits exactly that? Longer arms (upper and lower) that increase w/base and in turn longer diff end arc?

Are they standard or "special" arm bushes in the rear of that red GQ?

Coxy

instant center is basically the convergence point of the rear links conbined with the contact patch angle, which is theoretically the 'jacking' point or spot at which the transfer or power and traction acts. (sorry for the pathetic tech explaination, its very longwinded to explain it fully). EG std lifted nissans have an IC which is ~center of the back seat in a wagon, whereas changing to long arms lowers this point and moves it forward, ideally somewhere just below and in front of the CofG is nice or say bottom of the bellhousing or near the center of the clutch'ish. This is sorta like a long lever from the contact patch of the rear tires to the center of the weight of the rig, which allows a greater and more constant ground-pressure under accel (ie lever is long and flat). With it in std lifted form (back seats'ish) you dont get a lot of weight on the lever and it prefers to 'jack ' the back of the rig.( ie lever is more vertical)



this shows what happens on lifted trucks.


a quick calculator if you want to play with the figures.
http://home.earthlink.net/~whshope/id25.html

this is the long arm kit
http://www.superiorengineering.com.au/p ... ts_id=1719

The SuperiorEng kit uses proper nissan rear bushs cus' they last the longest! and std top arms cus' they are still fine for flex. The pick of the red truck on the ramp has std top arms, they do not limit flex at all. We always used to hear BS stories about having to change to an Aframe to get flex, well we proved that crap wrong!! all an A frame does is change your roll center and roll axis which seems to make the problems even worse.



hope this info helps, sorry for the crap explainations, but its just hard to get into words concisely.[/img]

[Gwagensteve]

Great thread 1MadEngineer

Steve.

[coxy321]

Sweet!! Clear as clear champ. You've done well.
Fitting these would require a dual cab conversion for me though - so its out of the question!

[tazzashort]

wat is the the rough $$$ for this?
Superior superflex front 4-5" arms, and Long-arm rear.
FOA 12" travel 2.5" remote res Front shocks
FOA 16 or 18" travel remote res Rear shocks
4 x FOA 2.5" x 4" travel Air bumps
5" lift microalloy springs.

[1MadEngineer]

wat is the the rough $$$ for this?
Superior superflex front 4-5" arms, and Long-arm rear.
FOA 12" travel 2.5" remote res Front shocks
FOA 16 or 18" travel remote res Rear shocks
4 x FOA 2.5" x 4" travel Air bumps
5" lift microalloy springs.

I will try and find out for you ASAP! I don't sell any of this stuff, i am just a design junky who loves playing with hipo suspension setups.

[1MadEngineer]

wat is the the rough $$$ for this?
Superior superflex front 4-5" arms, and Long-arm rear.
FOA 12" travel 2.5" remote res Front shocks
FOA 16 or 18" travel remote res Rear shocks
4 x FOA 2.5" x 4" travel Air bumps
5" lift microalloy springs.

I will try and find out for you ASAP! I don't sell any of this stuff, i am just a design junky who loves playing with hipo suspension setups.

ok some guestimates
Superior superflex front 4-5" arms - ~$1300
Long-arm rear with mounts. ~$825
FOA 14" travel 2.5" remote res Front shocks ~$800-1000pr
FOA 16 or 18" travel remote res Rear shocks ~$900-1100pr
4 x FOA 2.5" x 4" travel Air bumps ~$900-1000 for 4
5" lift microalloy springs. ~$200-250pr

so by my dodgy calcs ~$5250, for a fricken amazing setup. not bad considering some mobs are charging $4k+ for big lifts with no more flex than some stockers!

IMO if you went this far you may as well change the rear rem res shocks for 3 tube bypasses in the rear for an additional $600-800ish

[CWBYUP]

Who does a bolt in foa / fox etc shock kit for a 4" lifted GQ ?

Nick

[1MadEngineer]

Who does a bolt in foa / fox etc shock kit for a 4" lifted GQ ?

Nick

I designed a really cool adjustable mounting system for threaded body shocks (like FOA/fox/saw....) which allow them to be adjusted to suit any lift/travel combo. Mick at superior has the designs and i think he will be making then soon. It means you dont have to have those big bulky raised-up tower thingys!

I should really stop getting talked into designing stuff while they are feeding me beer.

[ACF]

am starting to slowly build a winch truck swb patrol so far i am going make it a ute wheelbase extension etc but was wondering what is the best suspension setup any help and pics appreciated

It seems this post has gone completely of track from the original question

Price for any suspension set up depends on what you want to achieve.
As far as WINCH CHALLENGE vehicles are concerned the suspension setup for your mid wheel base should be something as follows.............

Spring lift no more than 4"
Shocks no longer than 10" front, 12" rear
Modified bump stops
Front radius arm setup as factory
Rear 5 link as factory

Quality bolt on shocks are fine, can upgrade to .........dual shocks, smoothies, bypass.......At your expence

Coil overs are great but same deal no bigger than 10" / 12"

Anything that keeps your car low and stable is a positive
Anything that lifts your car and creates uneeded excess wheel travel is a negative


Note Nissan spent millions to design these cars and they do work well with some strengthening to some components

[mickyd555]

Who does a bolt in foa / fox etc shock kit for a 4" lifted GQ ?

Nick

www.wizardperformance.com.au

I had the mounting points on the Fabtech shocks they sell modified to accept the same rubber bush as an EFS extreme shock for the rear, for the front you need to buy an upper shock tower that bolts in to replace the existing one and they put a pin on the bottem.

If Gregs price guess above is accurate for the FOA's then i wouldnt bother with them at this stage (i believe you need to import them yourself). Wizard keep them on the shelf and it only took one week for me to get mine custom valved and tuned (they have there own shock dyno). They also rebuild them (no idea on price for that as mine arnt old enough yet).

I believe the price of the Fabtechs is about $450-$500 and they bolt in, no welding required.