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Engine popping on deceleration - fixed!

Tech Talk for Suzuki owners.

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Engine popping on deceleration - fixed!

Post by Moph »

Since my engine rebuild 3000k's ago I've noticed it 'popping' on decceleration when I hold it in gear. If I drop a gear or two to get some engine braking it gets quite bad - maybe 2-4 pops per second. They sound to be coming from the exhaust side but it's hard to tell from in the cab.

So for the last 3000k's I've just put the clutch in when deccelerating as engine has otherwise been perfect.

Spent some time on it tonight, gave it it's second oil + filter change, adjusted the tappets, tightened the head bolts, checked all the exhaust manifold bolts - a good general once over.

Took it for a drive - still doing it :bad-words: I had been hoping it was just a slight exhaust leak or something, but everything is pulled up to spec.

Any ideas what it could be? Timing is spot on (9 degree BTDC - juuuust under ping threshold on big hills).
Last edited by Moph on Mon Nov 03, 2008 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by want33s »

I used to have a corolla that would do it if the point gap closed up but Zooks (1.3's anyway) don't have points.
My Zook does it now and then and when it pops it also doesn't idle properly so until I sort it out I can only assume its an idle air/fuel mixture problem.
The cause of which I'm yet to (look for or) find.

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Post by Moph »

Hmmm. Could it be caused by it running a bit rich? I suspect that it is. I intend taking it in and having it dyno tuned once I get to 5000k's.

Actually another question - is there any simple way of working out whether ur catalytic converter is clogged? Engine had done 300,000km at rebuild and I have no idea what condition the exhaust's in, but I'm loathe to replace it if it doesn't need it.
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Post by jonno_racing »

whats the issue with that??? gota love a cakle..
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Post by ofr57 »

Moph wrote:Hmmm. Could it be caused by it running a bit rich? I suspect that it is. I intend taking it in and having it dyno tuned once I get to 5000k's.

Actually another question - is there any simple way of working out whether ur catalytic converter is clogged? Engine had done 300,000km at rebuild and I have no idea what condition the exhaust's in, but I'm loathe to replace it if it doesn't need it.
x2 I'm thinking its something with over fueling by the sounds of it
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Post by JrZook »

Moph wrote:Hmmm. Could it be caused by it running a bit rich? I suspect that it is. I intend taking it in and having it dyno tuned once I get to 5000k's.

Actually another question - is there any simple way of working out whether ur catalytic converter is clogged? Engine had done 300,000km at rebuild and I have no idea what condition the exhaust's in, but I'm loathe to replace it if it doesn't need it.
Usually the opposite, lean burn on deaccel will cause some noise. Maybe you have a slightly blocked idle jet.

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Post by NIK »

Im fighting with this atm too, air leaks in the manifold could contribute to it.
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Post by RockHopper »

Moph wrote:
Actually another question - is there any simple way of working out whether ur catalytic converter is clogged? Engine had done 300,000km at rebuild and I have no idea what condition the exhaust's in, but I'm loathe to replace it if it doesn't need it.
Just like if any other muffler is stuffed it will suffocate on it's own exhaust and you will lose top end power. exhaust may actually have a peculiar smell sometimes when the engine has been given a bit of a flog.
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Post by mrw82 »

i thought it was a 4 cylinder thing???

i call mine the rice bubble exhaust. it goes snap, crackle, pop!
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Post by DavePatrol »

mine dose this as well but it has only done it since i put a new exhaust on it never did it be for, if i have given it a bit and than leave it in gear as slowing right down in the revs or change back it will pop and crackle a little to wards the end, i thought it was just excess fuel burning in the exhaust? but not to sure.

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Post by chris.e »

It is either a lean mixture, air leaks in the manifold or exhaust or retarded timing.
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Post by alien »

mine did that a few times - and every time it was the stock carby's auto choke failing....
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Post by Moph »

You might be on to something there alien...

Had the carby rebuilt when I did the engine reco ... the guys stuffed up the auto choke when they put it back together and had to strip it off and refit it when I took it back (kept stalling at stoplights).

Been fine since BUUUUUT got in it this morning, cold start, engine revved up to 2100rpm and stayed there until it was up to temp. That's pretty darn high for auto choke. Used to sit at about 1300/1400 rpm I think on choke. When I start it up in the carport with the doors closed it smells pretty rich too.

Might strip the carby off her tonight and have a play. It's either that or sit and talk to the visiting parents-in-law :lol: Amazing how having them to stay motivates me to get stuff done around the house.......! :D
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Post by Moph »

Hmmmmm. This is interesting. Found it posted on a motorbike site:
http://www.vtxoa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=28918 wrote:Burn Baby Burn

The last thing I want to address today is the subject of deceleration backfire, or “popping”. This topic generates a lot of concern from inexperienced riders, or even from experienced guys who just hate the noise, so lets take a look at what causes it. But first things first, lets define the issue:

Deceleration Backfire is caused by fuel burning in the exhaust manifold or header.

No ifs ands or buts, that’s what causes it. But the bigger question is how does gas get there in the first place, and that’s a bit more complicated. Generally, there are a variety of ways it gets there, and a variety of things that can make the backfiring worse. But there’s a kicker, and something you should understand before we go any farther:

A motor in perfect tune will exhibit deceleration backfiring.

Therefore, just because your motor is banging it up, doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong. And consequently:

Getting rid of the noise means de-tuning your motor.

Yup. If you’ve just got to eliminate that popping, you’ll have to accept the fact that your motor is going to be forced to run rich to do it, and that isn’t necessarily a good thing. So lets talk about what causes the problem.

Ok, so you’re riding along at some given rpm, and suddenly you decide to decelerate, and you reduce the amount of throttle. This causes an “overrun” – that is, the motors rpm is turning faster than the fuel provided can support, so the motor begins to spool down. This causes a couple of things to happen.

First, when you close the throttle, you are also closing the throttle plates. This reduces the air and fuel flowing into the motor, and increases the vacuum (lowers the pressure). This results in less air and fuel in the cylinder during the power stroke, which in turn results in a lower pressure in the combustion chamber. Remember I said earlier, that the A/F mix burns faster in proportion to the pressure applied? Well, when we reduce pressure this way, the mix burns slower. This results in two things happening.

1. The lower burning fuel generates less heat, and the cooling effect of the non-burning fuel tends to “quench” the flame front, or slow it down even further. Because the mix is burning much slower, the exhaust valve can open before all the fuel is consumed, and the unburnt fuel is ejected into the exhaust.
2. The engine designers, in order to promote smoother idling and better combustion, retard the spark when the throttle is shut, and this results in the mix being lit later.

So, now we end up with unburnt fuel in the exhaust, and burning fuel being ejected into the exhaust, and bang! Backfire. In addition, Honda has added a device called a “programmed air injection valve” (Pair Valve) that actually injects some fresh air into the exhaust to help this process along – since fully burning the fuel results in cleaner exhaust. So the backfiring is not only a normal part of the engines operation, it’s also intentionally amplified by Honda! Of course, normally, that massive bazooka pipe Honda hangs on your bike hides most of the noise, but it’s there, even when you can’t hear it.

So the bottom line, is: That backfiring is perfectly normal and expected. If you’ve just got get rid of it, that’s up to you. You’re entitled to set your motor up the way you want, and your goals are your goals. But don’t refer to it as “fixing” the popping. Rather, the correct way to think of it is “de-tuning a bit to get rid of the popping”.

There are a few ways you can do this.

First, use the stock pipe. It will hide the sound, by absorbing it into mass, and masking it with the larger baffle space. Second, you can add more fuel during deceleration. This has the effect of raising the chamber pressure slightly, which burns a little more before the exhaust valve opens. Lastly, you can remove the Pair valve, which reduces the amount of available oxygen in the pipe to burn the unburnt fuel.
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Post by joeblow »

also, if you read the suzuki genuine manuals they state that if the EGR system is not working or blocked it will backfire under deceleration compression.
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Post by Moph »

joeblow wrote:also, if you read the suzuki genuine manuals they state that if the EGR system is not working or blocked it will backfire under deceleration compression.
Oh. :oops: Might put the heat shield back on and reconnect the EGR :oops:

The heat shield had been rattling and I intend fitting a snorkel, so I left it off during the rebuild.

That makes sense actually - switch to warm air during deceleration compression to richen the mixture (as warm air is less dense) and assist the flame front, releasing less unburnt fuel into the exhaust manifold. Will try it out tonight and see if it makes a difference. EGR was fitted prior to rebuild and I didn't have any popping......
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Post by joeblow »

not the warm air for carby, but the exhaust gas recirculation for the carby, which runs round back of the head (cast into it) and has the modulator on the manifold below the carby.
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Post by Moph »

Ah right - got ya. Total mechanical noob here :)

Will sus out the EGR tonight - have a coupla service manuals - but got a question re the carby / manifold that you may be able to answer.

When I had the carby rebuilt, it was returned to me with two new gaskets, one for each side of the little plate that fits between the carby and the manifold. I noticed that the plate had channels in it which I presume act as air ducts, and that the gaskets didn't have corresponding holes (ie the gaskets would have stopped any flow between the manifold / carby). So I put holes in the gaskets to match the ducts in the plate.

Have I done the right thing? The gaskets that were on there pre-rebuild didn't have any holes, but I presumed that was a mistake by the last owner when they rebuilt the carby.
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Post by mick85 »

Mine doesnt make any noise :cool:
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Post by grover »

hey i had exactly the same problem with my new motor turned out to be the carby. i rebuilt the cArby and cleaned the tank and lines now its gone:)
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Post by Guy »

Exhaust leak will do it as well.
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Post by Moph »

Had the exhaust replaced today - new cat converter ... no popping :cool:

Revs out a lot more freely now, and will happily sit on 50kph in 4th (used to have to use 3rd at 50 which was a pain ... 4th was juuuust a bit too tall and every slight press of the accelerator or rise in the road would make it struggle).

Also fixed a cold idle problem that had been developing over the last few weeks where it would just die at anything under 2000rpm until warm, so you might want to take a look at your cat Jas (similar symptoms).
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Post by want33s »

Moph wrote:
Also fixed a cold idle problem that had been developing over the last few weeks where it would just die at anything under 2000rpm until warm, so you might want to take a look at your cat Jas (similar symptoms).
Cool, glad to hear yours is sorted now..
My exhaust is on it's last legs so I'll have to get a new one sometime soon but I doubt that is my problem (entirely) as mine only does it sometimes.

Jas.
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