Winch Challenges and tyre size limits

[MissDrew]

Ok lets get some opinions here about these rules.

I think that for the future of the sport that the winch challenges should run 2 classes for tyres, 36 and under, then over 36.

My feeling is that by only having one class and limiting it to a 36 that it is stopping rigs from progressing forward (I`m talking about vic rigs here) basicly where do we want to be with the 4x4`s in vicy in 10 years time? By staying with the tyre limit all the comp rigs down this way will still be the same

Now I have heard people say that if they allow bigger then it will become a rich mans sport, well HELLO wake up,it all ready is if you want to win,as you have to go and spend big $$$$$$ on ya motor to even be in with a chance. So this just doesn`t stand up to the debate with me.

[Drafty]

Guts for the winch style events we do what advantages do you see in running on bigger than 36 inch tyres, beside the obvious ones of better ground clearance and a little more footprint and traction?

Also do you thing your truck would turn rubber bigger then 36?

[wanna]

And what about the width rule as well it rules out wider but smaller boggers 33x15 and 35x15 and theres a lot of people that have these tires

[Webbie]

That goes hand in hand with hight so they could not possibly limmit width as there r to many size differences an some tyre only come in one width i,e swappers heaps if different widths but lets say MAXXIS or BFG'S all 12.5 or 14'' so thet would not hold up BTW they r just examples so dont flame me if ive f@cked the widths up

[LOCKY]

Happy with current Tyre sizes. The main problem comes back to building winch challenge courses that don't favour the larger tyres that can still be driven by smaller tyres, without making a speed course where the smaller tyres win with handling.

My 2c.

[Drafty]

Happy with current Tyre sizes. The main problem comes back to building winch challenge courses that don't favour the larger tyres that can still be driven by smaller tyres, without making a speed course where the smaller tyres win with handling.

My 2c.

I agree with you Locky.

[MissDrew]

Also do you thing your truck would turn rubber bigger then 36?

Yes as I have a V6 (out of a VT) to go in it and I also have a 80 series rear which I am thinking of putting in it. I just have to workout what I want to do with the front diff


So Locky and Drafty are you 2 happy for all the comp rigs to still be the same in 10 years time? I`m not, how boring will that be

[MissDrew]

Happy with current Tyre sizes. The main problem comes back to building winch challenge courses that don't favour the larger tyres that can still be driven by smaller tyres, without making a speed course where the smaller tyres win with handling.

My 2c.

Thats easy to do, just have the same number of stages that have big rocks etc as to faster stages. Winch challenges have 12 stages all up so thats 6 each.

Basicly with comp rigs over the last 5 years the only really big things that have changed on them is weight and power.

[LOCKY]

Fair point Guts.

Are you up for running a comp where you tyre size rules apply?

Would be happy to raise support from other people.

[MissDrew]

Fair point Guts.

Are you up for running a comp where you tyre size rules apply?

Would be happy to raise support from other people.

I`m happy to do the track design etc, just no good when it comes to paper work money side of things. More then happy to help with this side of things just not to be in charge of it. Yes I know this is the harder side of things, I just know what I can do well and what I can`t do well and I am being honest.

I told Tony Robinson that I wanted to be in charge of the track design for the this years Ateco, but this was before last years event even started.

[ORSM45]

id back you up mate how many vics are running bigger than 36 and cant compete because of it. i know a bloke who used to run 38s but changed his whole car to accomodate SMALLER tyres. we're supposed to grow! not down size.
it may be a lower cost to run smaller tyres, as less stess on driveline, etc. but i think having 2 classes could work well, as it would cost even more to run the tyre size you want and then run the tyre size the rules say you can have.
Tuff Truck challenge has been fairly even 2 years in a row, cars running 35s have placed in the top 3 both years.
you could have class winners and overall winners.
i see it as a big step forward.

[turps]

The 2001 ATECO at Werribe had the 2 different classes. From memory there was only about 3 cars on the open class, Matt Fenner GU Ute 38tsl's , Rodifieds suzi 35boggers. Cant remember the other. But the suzi won that class. Of the stages most I suppose where designed to take into account better set up cars but we ran them with cars on 33" mud tyres with 1 or lockers (except when Gerard (head bloke) ran them running Q78's). But there would have been an advantage on a couple of them running big tyres. I like the idea of the 2 classes. As for fast campared to slow and tight the 2000 one at stump hill I think had better course designs then the later ones as it was a bit tighter and did use some public roads. It also had two Patrol utes running 38 boggers (the GQ broke alot of bits - 383chevs will do that). But alot of those stages you couldn't really get the larger cars wound up to go quick as it was much tighter.

Turps

[Pal]

This is a Winch Challenge we are talking about not a Driving Challenge.
Put bigger tyres on and you will all drive most of the tracks.
Tha track builders will then have to build harder tracks to stop you (which is a LOT more work for them)
I cant see how driving on 39's will advance the SPORT

The Aussie V8's drive on a control tyre and that has not handicapped their SPORT

So if you cant compete on 36's take it home and learn to drive on them and when you are ready then come back and have a go.

[Drafty]

Also do you thing your truck would turn rubber bigger then 36?

Yes as I have a V6 (out of a VT) to go in it and I also have a 80 series rear which I am thinking of putting in it. I just have to workout what I want to do with the front diff


So Locky and Drafty are you 2 happy for all the comp rigs to still be the same in 10 years time? I`m not, how boring will that be

To be honest with you Guts it wouldn't worry me a bit, l prefer the navigation / rally type event personally. Tends to be a bit more demanding mentally rather than physically.

Having said that if the opertunity arose to be able to run say 38's than we would.

[bogged]

So if you cant compete on 36's take it home and learn to drive on them and when you are ready then come back and have a go.

Guts is running Q78s now, and drives it quite well, 1 respectable placing few yrs back, been a while though Guts......

[wanna]

Yea how about letting people set up there cars the way they want them i wanted to run 33 boggers on my zook i could not fit 36 at the time the extra witdth would have been a great thing for the car and safer but then i couldnt compete

[turps]

The current winch style events require a bit more skill then just having big tyres and HP. I have seen alot of cars compete in vic that have got huge hp, but recovery team work when they get stuck is lacking compared to some of the other competiers. I do notice that alot of the northerners have huge lift / tyres but no winches. So that would sway there opion a bit of what they think a comp should be ie tuff truck style??. Cos they dont appare to like winching.
I like the current set up, but it would be good to see an open class. Also to have the normal class, have the tyre size limit to 36" but no width limit. So then you can run 33x14R15 boggers etc.

just a note on the open class, 1 problem I see at the moment is most of the offical cars that set out the layouts for the stages, dont run big tyres. Last year there was only a couple of cars running 35"simex /swampers, a couple of cars on JT2's or 35"muds. But alot are only running 33" Muddies (and mine where near bald anyway).

Turps

[grimbo]

Insurance is probably the biggest reason the organisers are limiting tyre size. Tyres bigger than 36 tend to be non speed rated and can cause all sorts of concerns if something goes wrong. When you combine the speed driven by the winch event trucks and OBC for that matter nad non speed rated tyres you are asking for trouble.

I agree that bigger tyres is becoming more acceptable and the norm for modded cars and maybe a trials based series needs t be organised but a lot of issues would need to be sorted to accommodate them.

[Webbie]

Grimbo we need to find out how the mud racing organizations does it if insurance it the problem as they use Rice tyres for f@ck sake and still are able to have comps lets look outside the square and be smart if thats what this is about BTW if people say that small tyres will not hert the sport is that why they moved from minis at bathurst to monaros Thats righ because size does matter and if we want our sport to grow we in realistic terms need spectators because they bring in money and sponsership as do Ads do for TV, Lets be realist about keeping it afordable

does anyone know anyone that drives at bathurst

I didnt think so motor racing of anykind is a rich mans sport
IMO 2c worth

[grimbo]

yes but mud racers aren't street legal cars that need to follow road regulations do they for f@ck sake. maybe think inside the square for a second and be smart. Its a whole different thing building sport vehicles that are only used on private land compared to vehicles that are meant to be driven on the street as well as competing.

Monster trucks have 8' high tyres why not let them compete then?

[V8Patrol]

This is a Winch Challenge we are talking about not a Driving Challenge.
Put bigger tyres on and you will all drive most of the tracks.
Tha track builders will then have to build harder tracks to stop you (which is a LOT more work for them)
I cant see how driving on 39's will advance the SPORT

The Aussie V8's drive on a control tyre and that has not handicapped their SPORT

So if you cant compete on 36's take it home and learn to drive on them and when you are ready then come back and have a go.

You can add to that.....

Gokart racing ... nearly all classes and includes engine componets
M/cycle roadracing ... most prody classes including the GP classes
M/cycle scramble racing... GP classes at the moment
NASCAR ( USA ) ... All classes have single tyre choice only
NASCAR ( AUS ) ... All classes have single tyre choice only
HQ racing .... controled tyre as well as engine componet control
WRC ... small choice of controlled tyres
ANDRA ... some restrictions on tyre compounds & widths in some classes
Speedway ... some of the more affordable classes run controlled tyres

the list goes on.

If the major motor racing bodies for their "sports" see tyre control as a "good thing" for their sport then maybe 4wd Associations should be looking the same way.

Gokart racing is without doubt the most controlled M/racing sport at the moment with NASCAR & HQ Racing comming a very close 2nd. Their controls include ( for gokart ) ....
Engine.... extreamly strict controls right down to capacity, carby, exhaust and there are penitallies for "cheating".
Chassis... again this is a controlled region, limitted choice of chassis' & manafacturer.
Tyres .... this is the strictess part... only a single brand, size, compound maybe used, traction additives are forbidden.

With that much controll you must wonder why the gokart scene is so popular, well the main reasons are that is 100% fair in that the "karts" are equall in their performance leaving it to all up to driver skill.

I would think that a limited tyre size would be good for 4wd comps and add the affordabillity factor which may inturn see an increase in the number of compettitors

If i turned up to compete in a 4x4 comp and I was up against a guy with 44" swampers and I'm on 35 BFG's... what chance have I got.... more n likely I'd spectate and worry about the $$$ for the 44's I'd have to buy in order to be on a level playing field.

Is'nt that what all motor sports are about ..... DRIVER SKILL !

[MissDrew]

So if you cant compete on 36's take it home and learn to drive on them and when you are ready then come back and have a go.

Mate I can drive my lux don`t you worry about that, I got 4th in the 1st tuff truck and I was on only 33`s. On the night stage in that tuff truck only myself and ballsac (on 44`s) finished the stage with only 1 winch and he was only 2 points in front of me cause I take an extra reverse just to be safe. On the All terrain stage I was 1 of only 4 rigs to drive it WITHOUT winching. Also since then I have got a 3rd in Woodpecker and a 3rd in open class in Nissan Trials on Q78`s (just under 36`s). I don`t want the bigger tyre sizes for my driving ability I want it to see rigs progress forward not just stay the same.

Also I was one of the main people that designed and tested EVERY stage at the stump hill Ateco so I know how to build stages for winch events that are not just speed related, but are still winable by any rig in the event.

Also to V8patrol, When I first got to the 1st tuff truck I looked around and seen rigs on everything up to 44`s and thought to myself "why am I bothering" but I was there for fun not to try and win, but as it turned out I came 4th. So don`t let big tyres on other rigs turn you off as they can break easier and sometimes just can`t fit on the correct line.

To add more to this, I`m not saying open tyre size completly, just have a 36 and under class (keep this as the main class by having bigger prizes for it then the bigger class), and a over 36 class this way people that want to run bigger can and you still have a "controlled class in the 36 and under class.

[big red]

i reckon tyre diameter should be the same for everyone as the track builders for natural terrain stages are flat out trying to keep them close to each other as it is.
spectators dont want to drive for miles between stages and the sport needs lots more spectators to be viable.
tyre width should be open though.
tyre diameter keeps people on a reasonably level playing field.

Why not have a different comp for outlaw style trucks where anything goes? i would go to see both !!

[MissDrew]

i reckon tyre diameter should be the same for everyone as the track builders for natural terrain stages are flat out trying to keep them close to each other as it is.

How and why does it matter if 1 stage is rock and another is mud then another one is fast steeper stuff? It doesn`t as all the rigs drive the same stuff I`ve been a track builder for 2 years for the Ateco and it makes no bloody differance. Well I don`t think it does.
If you want you can have small sections (like in Nissan Trials) where the big tyred rigs go to say the left of a maker or tree which has bigger rocks, ledges, deeper water, is harder to drive and the smaller (under 36) goes to the right, this section might only be 20 or 30mts long then they are back on the same track again.

2 classes one has big tyres the other has little tyres.

Spectators get to see big tyred rigs and they get to see "faster" small tyred rigs.

Compeditor numbers (in winch challenges) will go up as it allows more rigs to enter, which means more $$$$ can be made.

[turps]

spectators dont want to drive for miles between stages and the sport needs lots more spectators to be viable.
both !!

This is a big problem to as over the last 4 ateco, only 2 have had easy spector access. Stump Hill was good on the sunday stages but sat stages you needed to drive (only sunday was supposed to have spectators). Werribe and Lancfield had easy access to all stages on all days. And Strath creek would have required a fair bit of walking.

So how do they find the property's, I can understand how they found Lancefield as the guy races in the OBC, but what about the others.

[MissDrew]

Spectators are the hardest thing to cater for. Its that simpal.

I know when I was helping with the Ateco nobody really wanted to have spectators but it was seen (At Stump hill) as a part where the sport needs to change and allow them in. Its that simpal.

The way I`d look at tracks is,

the stage its self for the compeditors comes first
then its the stage for recovering broken rigs that comes 2nd
then the access for spectators comes last.

Tuff truck has it lucky here cause they have man made tracks next to one another so that makes it easy for spectators access.

Another thing that has to be thought about by spectators that winge about having to walk a bit between stages is that (Ateco used to be like this but wasn`t last year, friday night stages anyway, don`t know aboutthe rest) is that they don`t want the compedtitors to beable to see any of the track before they are driving on it. So it makes it hard to have tracks close to one another as then drivers would be able to see what they are up against before they are under the clock.

As for finding properties, well from what I know its just a matter of people knowing people and it gets harder each year to find willing owners that will allow events to be held on their property. I think this is a bit that Locky will be able to put more insight towards.

[308LUX]

i think guts has hit the nail on the head...why not have the 2 classes...36"s and under & 36"s and over...would make the sport more entertaining...get more spectators, specially wanting to see the big rigs with there 42"s...those who want to stay small, spend less $$ can...& those who want to build the big rigs can also.
IMO thats what id like to see for the future of the sport.

[MissDrew]

I just changed the topic name to winch challenge tyres size limtis as this goes for all winch challenges not just vic ones.

Also I`d like to see MMM`s input and thoughts on this topic.