are forged pistons and rods available for the G16B ?

[oozuk]

im intrested in finding out if these are available as the std vitara rods a a bit thin and unsure how long the std pistons will last wilst being a boosted engine. CP pistons sayd they could make a custom set as they dont have a listing for suzuki but at $2500 for a set of four pistons i dont think i'll be getting them any time soon

[PCRman]

Spent some time (dreaming) looking into this myself. Found these guys for rods
http://motorsport.bdg.com.au/conrod.html

Apart from that i found a lot of talk about people putting in honda d16a cranks (civic & CRX). and then getting the more readily available forged rods and pistons. Crank apparently required mains to be ground down to fit the g16b block. Apart from that i dont know how feasible the rest is.

fairly slim pickings imho.

found more stuff for j20a but

[jonno_racing]

have a search on redline gti.com... shorley some one would have done it or would know..

[GRPABT1]

Yeah I agree redline GTi

Also the stock GTi rods are forged, could they be used?

[cj]

No, the 1.3 rods are shorter.

I did find a company in South America that has made and can make to order forged rods for the 1.6 but they weren't cheap.

ACL will make custom forged pistons and they should be a lot cheaper than the price from CP. I looked at having some done once when I was considering do a big bore on my old 1.6 and if I recall they were around the $1000 mark at the time.

Check on TeamSwift.

[St Jimmy]

You could try this mob not cheap but
but they will make them for you .

Bill Miller Engineering
http://www.bmeltd.com/rods.htm

[GRPABT1]

Ross also make custom forged pistons and they're better than acl. If the big ends fit could you use Gti rods with a tall piston or just enjoy the extra capacity?

[suzimad]

Steve , get on redlinegti.com and message a guy named itsdamo , he has been building a tough g16 with pauter rods and je forged pistons , they were an off the shelf item , so the prices should be fairly reasonable.

he has also had his crank cryogenically treated , from memory its not that dear

heres a youtube vid of his build ..

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=h2W4OZG3BdM

cheers
dave

[oozuk]

Steve , get on redlinegti.com and message a guy named itsdamo , he has been building a tough g16 with pauter rods and je forged pistons , they were an off the shelf item , so the prices should be fairly reasonable.

he has also had his crank cryogenically treated , from memory its not that dear

heres a youtube vid of his build ..

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=h2W4OZG3BdM

cheers
dave

Cheers dave, that video was helpful

[MightyMouse]

SPS in Melbourne will make you custom forged pistons and rings in just about any size. Take them sizes or samples and the rest is automatic.....
They are very high quality - much of their work is for racing teams etc.

That's the good news - the bad is that its expensive, last set of 4 cost me $1200 ( that's with rings ) and that was 18mths ago so.....

There's another company in Melbourne that does similar but can't remember the name for the life of me

[simcoz]

good info here http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?t=27523
Been looking at this for awhile now and wisco make them (i think),the piston sizes are similar to GSXR1000 75mm but gsxr's have a floating pin and g16b are pressed pin so custom rods to suit would be the go(try spool)
Also block has to be clearenced for H or I beam rods.
crank and rods are the weak point in a g16b but can make 300hp@flywheel safely with plenty of fuel and sensable timing and don't rev it more than 6500rpm.
I also run avgas to help stop any pinging but its not a dayly driver so $4 per ltr is fine.

hope this helps and remember google is your friend.

Coza

[Rhett]

I had the same problem when building a tuff 1300. I ended up using gti rods and suzi sport low compession pistons. I think for the 1600 most of the research I done came up with honda pistons and rods

[St Jimmy]

Some old stuf i found on Zuwharrie
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This is a common topic that icludes tons of questions and not the best answers if you use the search function. I thought it would help some of us that do a little more engine work do a better job. Feel free to post here and if I have made any mistakes in my information please tell me. That's really imprtant. Alot of the things on this list are interchangable, but not necassarily the SAME. there may be some differences that do not prevent the new parts use. I'm also going to include some torque spec's and whatnot. My 300 page notebook is FULL so I will take a while to get it all out here.

As I update this I will update it in this post and post a reply noteing its update. That way your not hunting through 400 posts looking for headbolt torque.

1298 engine. aka 1.3 Will have imprinted on block 1298, 89-97 as far as I can tell. Metro sammy swift. Majority of these blocks apear the same, not seen many differnces in them. They apear to have been cast for oil squirters in the crank galley but I've ner seen one factory machined. There is also a pad cast into the lower portion of the block btween cyl 3 and 4 that appears to be a oil drain casting for aturbo drain but I have never seen a factroy turbo one of these engines. My theory is they reused some of the older 3cyl turbo casting cor boxes. But these 2 items make these blocks good candidates for a ground up turbo build.

1324 AKA 1.3 most common sammy motor will have 1324 on block. I've seen differnces in these blocks in regards to casting desighns, Like the 1298 mentioned above, some (very few as I can tell) also were cast fro squirters and oild drainback provisions for a turbo, interstingly enough, the engines so built do not have an engine ID number machined into srface next to bell housing. One of these blocks would also be a good turbo build up.

1590 8valve sohc aka 1.6 engine found in kicks and tracks, g16kc is another name for it.
1590l 16v sohc aka 16v engine, kicks and tracks, g16kv is its other name.



1324 engine.
Bore 74mm
Stroke 77mm
rod diameter 1.6529-1.6535
main diam. 1.771-1.7716
pistons are a press fit pin.
Bell houseing pattern is same as 1298. 1590 engines can easily be adapted with trail tuff or similar adapter plate.
ITM lists the pistons the same as the 1298 engine
rings however are catlogged as different numbers, I've never looked into why but I assume its related to ring size/desighn. This should not pose a problem as long as the pistons you buy include rings.
Flat top pistons are sourced from 3 cylinder 1000cc sprint engine. This yeild more compression. Remember you need 4. All thats required to put these psitons in are the pistons themselves. So don't bother with the low compression pistons.
As the hi compression pistons will work I am looking into the con rods and psitons from the turbo sprint for a more robust forced induction bottom end. Dores anyone know if the turbo sprint pistons were forged? same rod length as the sammy rod?
This would be helpful for a proper turbo build on a 8v

main bearings are the same as 1298
Rod bearings are same as 1298

camshafts will interchange between any of the 8v heads 1298, 1324, 1590. However I've always used the distributor houseing that belongs to the camshafts original motor as I have had end play issues when not doing this. So 1.3 cam will work in a 1.6 head as long as you use the 1.3 houseing. Some may have done this without a concern, I still recomend it.

Rocker arms are the same as 1298 up intill 95 where the disighn changed. They are also same as 1590.

Cam gears are the same as 1298 and 1590
cam bolts are same as well.
Timing belt is same as 89-94 1298
Timing belt tension is same as 89-94 1298 and 1590

Intake valves are same as 1298 90-97
exhaust valves are the same 1298 90-97 exhaust valves from 1590 will work with custom cyl head machineing.
Valve springs are same as 1298. 1590 valve springs will interchange and have more spring pressure. Be sure to check for coil stacking and proper pressures depending on the cam you are uesing. small block chevy springs for 1.6 installed height is the hot rod Hi rpm jones. I like 75-80#'s on the seat and around 225 open
Valve guids will interchange from 1298 ans 1590, however, depending on manufactrurer, length on guides may need modification.

Connecting rods will interchange with 1298 90-97 model years neer as I can tell at this point.

Balancers, still working on this, 1298 balancers will bolt on and have correct seal diameter, however the ones I've seen from a 1298 may or may not be setup for your belt drive. This goes for 1590 as well. The balancers will physically bolt on, but the differences lay in belt arangement.
Balancer bolts are same as 1298, 1590, and 1590l

Valve covers, interchangable from 1298 and 1590, almost all of them will bolt onto each other. If its an 8v head its a good bet. Late model 94? and up cars with 8v 1298 engines and 1324 engine used an aluminum cover that seals better and can be cleaned up easier. good yard find. VC gaskets are catalogged diferent depending on gasket manufacturer. Best bet is to get gasket for v.covers original car application

Cylinder head. will swap from 1298 strait across. Later model heads May or may not have fuel pump functionality. 1590 cylinder head will bolt on but does not have provision for fuel pump cast into it.
1300 dohc swift gti head will bolt on as well,with the gti bolts though I have never got that engine running to finish the notes on it. gti timing componants are also needed. As would the gti head gasket.

1590l head will bolt on too with the 1590l head bolts. I have bolted this combo together but have not yet run it or finished it. It APPEARS that with the 1324 (or 1298) cam gear on the 1590l cam that the 1324 (or 1298) timing belt would work. Again I don't know that and it wouild take some tensioner work in any case.

Head gasket, 1298 will work fine, be sure to pay attention to the hole for oil feed to head. This is critical. 1590 gasket will work as well and is recomended (by me for what thats worth) for large overbores (.020 and up) and anytime a 1590 head is used on the 1324 or 1298 block.

Head bolts, use 1298 or 1590 bolts, 1590l bolts are different

Main bolts are same as 1298. Unknown if 1590 and 1590l bolts are same.
intake manifolds. 1298 manifolds, weather carbed or injected will bolt on fine. 1590 manifolds will work but is not recomended on 1324 head as head ports are smaller, if useing the 1590 head its better to port the 1324 or 1298 manifold to 1590 gasket size for intake oprts. Either way some porting will be necassary.
Intake manifold gaskets are same as 1298, 1590 are larger to accomodate larger ports. 1590 gasket can be used on 1298 and 1324 apps without leakage as the gasket is larger.

exhaust manifolds will interchange from 1298 and 1590 though there are desighn differences, but they will bolt on. 1590 manifold is more tubular in desighn with better cross section and longer "primary" this is most likely a performance improveing peice though I have never tested it. 1590 manifolds also seem crack prone.

Oil pans and pickups will interchange from 1298 and 1590 and 1590l engines, use the matching pair of pickup and pan. Non lifted apps need to be very carefull with pan to front housing clearence as 1590 pans are larger and may hit front axle during some conditions.

Flywheels, 1298 wheels are same. 1590 engine swaps will use 1298 or 1324 wheel on 1590 engine for bellhouseing fit reasons.
Clutches are standard sammy clutches, though on Hi HP engines (don't laugh I know its hard) I like the clutch that TNT diversified sells. Its a special disc with a specially sprung Pressure plate.
Flywheel bolts are same with 1298, 1590 and 1590l engines.

dISTRIBUTORS, 1298 and 1590 dist will fit, thing to remember is how you want run the engine management, Fuel injected engines will need correct dist. Not in scope right now to go into all that but just remember 1590 swaps will use factory carbed 1298 and 1324 mechanical/vacume distributors.
1590l 1.6 16valve engines that are run carburated (custom carb setup) will also use the 1.3 mechanical distrubutor for ignition controll if the proper modification to distributor shaft end and disributor hold down slot are made. This is a really easy way to run indv. carbs on a 16v if you want the hotrod motor without the injection. I will cover this later as there are some differences that need to be over come due to dist rotation.

Oil pumps, 1298 will work as will1590. There may be some small differnces in bypass and pressure, but they will bolt on and run and give adequate oil pressure.

1324 torque specs
Headbolts 50 ft#
main bolts 40ft#
cam gear 45ft#
crank bolt 50ft#
flywheel 55ft#
con rod 26ft#

This most likel;y what came in your sammy, they are a good engine with few problems. Most need a good rebuild by know. Blocks are tough and will not hardly ever ridge, so a quick and easy bottle hone, rings, bearings and valve job with seals will probably fix all you concers. Heads have a tendancy to burn valves.

1298 engine
bore 74mm
stroke 75.5

Pretty much you just need to look through the 1324 section above as these 2 engines are pretty much the same.
The real differnces are in later years when the valve train changed in the cars to a roller aragnement. The roller setup is interchangable as well given that everything from the roller valve train is used.

1590 engine
Bore 75mm
stoke 90mm
rod diam 1.7316-1.7323
main dia 2.0465-2.0472

Pistons are specific to this engine, though there are some others that will "work" .040 swift pistons will work and they are much more "flat top" I have a burette and about a dozen pistons and cyl heads here to check volume on to get a better idea of what CR you will end up with when running weird head and psiton combo's. Eventually there will be a list of compression ratios based on pistons used, head used, how much deck, how thick the gasket is and how much the head was cut, I'm working on that still and don't want to post up untill I got everything done.

Main bearings are listed as 1590 specific
oil pump is same as 1590l until 96 when 1590l was changed. Don't know the extent or particulars of that change.

camshafts, see above in 1324 section, basically all 8v cams will swap out. just use proper dist houseing.
cam gears will wrok from 1324 or 1298 engines
cam bolts are same as 1298 and 1324
head gasket, use 1590 or 1590l gasket, they are the same. 1298 and 1324 will work in a pinch, but don't expect much and only on stock bore engines.
head bolts 1298 and 1324 will work 1590l are different
intake and exhaust valves are specific to 1590
springs are specific to 1590 though 1298 and 1324 will work but will need real shimming to get proper installed height and pressures. again the small block chevy springs for 1.6 installed height is the hot rod Hi rpm jones. I like 75-80#'s on the seat and around 225 open.
valve guides, aside from length issues wich is easily modified, 1298 and 1324 guides will work.

Connecting rods are catalogged specific, though I've been TOLD that the 1590l engine rods will work and vise versa, I've never verified this.
Cranks are listed differently from 89-90 and from 91-95 though I've never noticed a differnce, anyone know what this is? Engines with 91-95 cranks would be able to use 1590l cranks for sure. I've used 1590l cranks in 1590 (and what I thought was an early block) with good success. So I'm not sure why the catalogging change but beware of it if you wish to swap parts along these lines.

Pistons are full floateing, meaning there are not a press fit wich is nice as you need no special tools to replace them.

valve cover s are covered in 1324 zection.

flywheels, for 99% of what we are doing the 1324 or 1298 wheel will be used as these engines end up in samurai's most often then not. Agian the TNT clutch setup is MY preference.


Torque specs 1590
Headbolts 50 ft#
main bolts 40ft#
cam gear 45ft#
crank bolt 50ft#
flywheel 55ft#
con rod 26ft#

These engines are closed deck desighn and pretty robust, good turbo motors, and the best bang for the buck sammy swap in my opinion. Be sure to check the keyway on the crank shaft of these engines as they fail alot and woller out. A competent machinest can broach a wider crank keyway and match balancer keyway to fix a buggered crank. But this can be cost prohibitive if a easy replacement is available. These engine hold up well, especially the cylinder head and valves when compared to a 1298 or 1324.

[GRPABT1]

Epic post ^^^

[suzimad]

regarding the crankshafts that he was unsure of the different listing, the 1298 and 1324 only differ in the stroke which is the different crankshafts , the 1298 has a stroke of 2.97 inches and the 1324 has a stroke of 3.03 inches.

all this information is totally irrevelant to the OP's question .

[daivid]

The cheapest way to acquire the forged rods is to use a modified Honda Crankshaft and have it machined to fit your g16a or b block.
The other way is to line bore your block to fit the d16 crank without mods.

I suggest the modified crankshaft as you can machine your small ends to suit 140mm forged rods from nissan e15. They are also 40mm on the ends much like motorbikes and wont need the block modified for clearance. You can also use honda pistons or vitara pistons as there are many versions. You could also go honda forged pistons or whatever to suit the rods even late flycut motorbike forgies.

On another note Id stay way away from billet aluminium rods.
Titanium yes and forged steel nissan e15et rods a big cheap yes!!

[GRPABT1]

aluminium rods are primarily used in drag racing and are a throw away item after a few passes because they stretch, not good for street at all!

[daivid]

exacto mundo,

Talk about throwing money away.