anyone running airbags in their rover?

[def90]

just toying with the thought of putting airbags in the rear of the 90.

curious if anyone here has, or knows anyone that has done this?

i know theres a 110 ute in rocky? off aulro that has but anyone here got any info on such things?

its either that or muck around with polyairs, and disolcation cones, etc to get the result i'm after.

cheers

[Slunnie]

You could run something similar to what the Disco2 has in the rear. There are other aftermarket bags such as Arnotts and Firestone etc. I believe there are heaps of aftermarket controllers available also. I'm pretty sure Wooders has done a heap of research into this and imports setups for the Jeepers, but the system would be the same.

[qserv]

i wouldnt mind running something like that aswell, but they would have to be very long at full extension and still be able to tuck well... i doubt there will be many bags that would be suited to that.

i was thinking of running dislocation blocks like equip make and running polyairs inside the springs, it wouldnt be hard to setup but you gain a few inch lift using dislocation blocks.

[Bush65]

I'm going to firestone airbags front and rear in my rangie - hoping parts arrive tomorrow.

Firestone assembly W01 358 5429 (airbag 1T14C-8) has compressed height of 175mm (6.9") and extended length of 566mm (22.3"), 168mm diameter.

The piston that comes with this assembly, needs to be changed or the upper section machined to reduce the spring rate when the bag is extended to reduce one of the disadvantages of airbags.

Edit: I said

The inside of the piston is hollow so it would be possible to use a dislocation cone inside, but as it is only about 125mm tall you will probably only gain about 50mm travel - or about 16" total travel.

But I wasn't thinking at the time I wrote that. Although the piston could be guided, the problem is the air pressure could over-extend the bellows and lead to damage.

Edit: from memory the Arnott bags have about 10" travel.

[def90]

i wouldnt mind running something like that aswell, but they would have to be very long at full extension and still be able to tuck well... i doubt there will be many bags that would be suited to that.

i was thinking of running dislocation blocks like equip make and running polyairs inside the springs, it wouldnt be hard to setup but you gain a few inch lift using dislocation blocks.

exactly what i'm thinking - it's hard to get the full tuck and full droop with most airbags, thats why i was thinking poly airs and maybe disclocation cones or preferably something similar to the X engineering X spring to get some downward pressure on the dislocated spring. because it would be hard to move the airbag further inward on the axle to minimise the size of bag needed.

hey slunnie about to lstart ook into the wooders jeep thing it seems to work quite well, been told he uses 'air rocks' air bags?

[Slunnie]

hey slunnie about to lstart ook into the wooders jeep thing it seems to work quite well, been told he uses 'air rocks' air bags?

Cool, hopefully he'll be able to help. He probably imports all of the parts too.

[Hally]

dont know if this will be any help but I too was doing some reseach at the moment I'm runing 100 series bump stops on the rear as disslocation cones works well

http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/ftopic118 ... hlight=110

[qserv]

I'm going to firestone airbags front and rear in my rangie - hoping parts arrive tomorrow.

Firestone assembly W01 358 5429 (airbag 1T14C-8) has compressed height of 175mm (6.9") and extended length of 566mm (22.3"), 168mm diameter.

The piston that comes with this assembly, needs to be changed or the upper section machined to reduce the spring rate when the bag is extended to reduce one of the dissadvantages of airbags.

The inside of the piston is hollow so it would be possible to use a dislocation cone inside, but as it is only about 125mm tall you will probably only gain about 50mm travel - or about 16" total travel.

Edit: from memory the Arnott bags have about 10" travel.

Gday John,
I will be very interested to see your results 16in of travel is impressive, i think my shocks have around 15-16in(but closer to the pivot point of the axle) of travel so that would work out quit well possibly, do you plan on setting them up to be crosslinkable?

[def90]

16" of travel from airbags is great!! be keen to look further into what your doing bushy65.

i've been told to look into firestone 1T19 & 1T26 so far, don't know of their lengths yet though. the 'standard' spring replacement airbag for a fender is only 6.4" to 15.75" so only 9" odd of travel, which obvioulsy wont quite cut it.

[Bush65]

I'm going to firestone airbags front and rear in my rangie - hoping parts arrive tomorrow.

Firestone assembly W01 358 5429 (airbag 1T14C-8) has compressed height of 175mm (6.9") and extended length of 566mm (22.3"), 168mm diameter.

The piston that comes with this assembly, needs to be changed or the upper section machined to reduce the spring rate when the bag is extended to reduce one of the dissadvantages of airbags.

The inside of the piston is hollow so it would be possible to use a dislocation cone inside, but as it is only about 125mm tall you will probably only gain about 50mm travel - or about 16" total travel.

Edit: from memory the Arnott bags have about 10" travel.

Gday John,
I will be very interested to see your results 16in of travel is impressive, i think my shocks have around 15-16in(but closer to the pivot point of the axle) of travel so that would work out quit well possibly, do you plan on setting them up to be crosslinkable?

Hello Mick,

I got the airock kit from Wooders, but it wasn't delivered today. Unfortunately I ordered before the dollar collapsed but the USA supplier stuffed around for so long the exchange rate bit me

I only plan to use 14" shockies, so not likely to worry about allowing dislocation for further travel.

Anyway, the ability to lean into cross slopes, and change heights on the fly etc will make it better than a coil set-up that might have more travel with dislocated springs. Or so I hope.

The airock air spings are made by firestone and have 12" travel, but are not listed by firestone. The springs I gave numbers and details for are not the ones used by airock - the main parts I wanted from them were the controller and airvalve unit.

[Bush65]

16" of travel from airbags is great!! be keen to look further into what your doing bushy65.

i've been told to look into firestone 1T19 & 1T26 so far, don't know of their lengths yet though. the 'standard' spring replacement airbag for a fender is only 6.4" to 15.75" so only 9" odd of travel, which obvioulsy wont quite cut it.

Those numbers are not complete. They are for bellows only, but missing a letter and number from the end which will be needed.

The 1T means that they are reversible sleeve type (the type we are interested in). As far as I can determine the 2 numbers after that relates to the outside diameter, then there will most likely be a letter and number that is assigned to different lengths.

There are dozens of different 1T19 bellows, some with travel up around 18", but the problem is they are all 10.62" diameter.

I don't have info on many 1T26 bellows (and I can't lay my hand on those at this moment). They are much smaller in diameter than the 1T19's, smaller than the 1T14's (6.62" diameter) that I listed before.

The bellows that airock use are one of the 1T26 family.

The numbers for the complete assembly (bellows plus piston etc) will start with W01- (for the reversible sleeve type).

That assembly I posted before W01-358-5429 (1T14C-8 bellows) is what I would recommend. It has the longest travel of any 1T14 family (just the piston shape needs changing).

The 1T26's are too small in diameter to run at any lengths needed to achieve more than 12" travel, and IMHO, the 1T19's are too large in diameter for what we want.

[def90]

cheers john!!

mate am going to have a chat to land rover spares in rocky? as well as they have done similar conversions before, not sure if to the same extreme of travel though. they are closed till the 5th though.

be great to see install pics when get to it - do you have any idea when you will start the install?

[Bush65]

The air bag suspension is only a small part of my rangie project. It will be quite some time before it is back on the road.

I have nissan gu diffs under it and after some other work that I hope to finish over the christmas break, I plan to fit the airbag suspension.

[Slunnie]

Those numbers are not complete. They are for bellows only, but missing a letter and number from the end which will be needed.

The 1T means that they are reversible sleeve type (the type we are interested in). As far as I can determine the 2 numbers after that relates to the outside diameter, then there will most likely be a letter and number that is assigned to different lengths.

There are dozens of different 1T19 bellows, some with travel up around 18", but the problem is they are all 10.62" diameter.

I don't have info on many 1T26 bellows (and I can't lay my hand on those at this moment). They are much smaller in diameter than the 1T19's, smaller than the 1T14's (6.62" diameter) that I listed before.

The bellows that airock use are one of the 1T26 family.

The numbers for the complete assembly (bellows plus piston etc) will start with W01- (for the reversible sleeve type).

That assembly I posted before W01-358-5429 (1T14C-8 bellows) is what I would recommend. It has the longest travel of any 1T14 family (just the piston shape needs changing).

The 1T26's are too small in diameter to run at any lengths needed to achieve more than 12" travel, and IMHO, the 1T19's are too large in diameter for what we want.

John, thats some great tech!

Just to clarify, are you going to run the W01-358-5429 (1T14C-8 bellows) on the Rangie with 14" travel shocks? How does the cost and engineerability compare to using products such as airshocks. Also how do the spring rates of this bag (I assume its a Jeep coil diameter???) compare to the larger and smaller diameter bags or even airshocks? I'm assuming the rate change with travel would be the biggest difference or is it more than that???

[Bush65]

John, thats some great tech!

Just to clarify, are you going to run the W01-358-5429 (1T14C-8 bellows) on the Rangie with 14" travel shocks? How does the cost and engineerability compare to using products such as airshocks. Also how do the spring rates of this bag (I assume its a Jeep coil diameter???) compare to the larger and smaller diameter bags or even airshocks? I'm assuming the rate change with travel would be the biggest difference or is it more than that???

The air springs coming with my airock kit are jeep coil size, but I ordered them long before I found the info on the W01-358-5429. I will most likely order the longer airsprings in the new year - I don't need them yet, but I have enough dimensions so I will make the chassis and axle mounts to suit the W01-358-5429 and 14" shockies.

I started with a plan to convert my boat trailer to off-road capability, to take it on long trips to the Cape, NT and Kimberlies. Using air bags on the trailer will allow me to use the same wheels and tyre size as the rangie (35") but drop the height to launch the boat.

Since I will have onboard air in the rangie and I am making many other mods I like the idea of 2 switchable ride heights for on and off road. I also like the way airbag suspension handles miles after miles of corrugations (thanks to the low natural frequency).

I have 14" coilovers for the bushie, and considered fitting the same on the rangie, but the other benefits (above) lead me to decide on air bags.

I guess air shocks would work out cheaper than air springs plus shocks. The complete air springs are US$176.82 from truckspring http://www.truckspring.com/ProductInfo. ... 1-358-5429. But the piston in these needs to be changed.

With the reversible sleeve air springs, the diameter of the piston and the air pressure control the spring rate. As the spring height changes, the air pressure does not change much, but the the air volume changes (that may depend on what is controlling the system).

I'm not worried about the air springs in remote areas. The bellows are reasonably tough, spare bellows are easy to carry/change and holes can be repaired with tyre plugs. It is also easy to connect valves to the airlines if the control system plays up.

[stuee]

How much effort and time do you think you'll put into machining the piston to get the appropriate spring rate (I hope I'm on the right track here - piston determines shape of the bag hence the spring rate?? or something along those lines). To me that's the beauty of the Arnotts bags is that the spring rate is already determined for you at the two different ride heights. Only issue being that you don't have the travel of the bags you mention.

[stuee]

Also how big are the air lines on your kit John?? I just had a look at the website and for the lean in and pitch up actions to be useful you'd want some pretty serious air movement going on so your not waiting to long.

[Bush65]

How much effort and time do you think you'll put into machining the piston to get the appropriate spring rate (I hope I'm on the right track here - piston determines shape of the bag hence the spring rate?? or something along those lines). To me that's the beauty of the Arnotts bags is that the spring rate is already determined for you at the two different ride heights. Only issue being that you don't have the travel of the bags you mention.

The bellows needed is 1T14C-8.

The only complete assembly that I can find, which uses that bellows is W01-358-5429.

But the piston used is far from ideal because the diameter increases at the top - this increases the spring rate when the air spring is extended (we don't want this because it is harder for the compressed spring on the opposite side to push the body back to level when it is body roll on the highway).

Unlike a coil spring which applies high force when compressed to zero force when fully extended, the force from an airspring doesn't change anywhere near as much from compressed to extended (without changing the piston diameter). It is this low spring rate that makes them so good off road.



This piston is 9754/NBD-11689.
The piston we want is 9778/NAD-18053 as used with complete unit W01-358-5426 (1T14C-7 bellows), among others.


The best outcome would be to get this piston, but the other piston could be machined down so the top is the same diameter as the waist.

I am lead to believe that trucksprings can supply the 1T14C-8 bellows with the 9778NAD-18053 piston, but not using their online store.

The diameter needs to increase at the base to increase the spring rate when the airspring is compressed.

If you had suitable lumps of aluminium or plastic, you could machine pistons to tailer the spring rate in the same way that Arrnott has done.

[Bush65]

Also how big are the air lines on your kit John?? I just had a look at the website and for the lean in and pitch up actions to be useful you'd want some pretty serious air movement going on so your not waiting to long.

Sorry the kit hasn't arrived yet - the courier picked it up in Sydney last Thursday (I'm about 2 hrs north), so I can't be sure of the airline size.

I have a spare airspring bellows here and the port for the airline fitting is 1/4" NPT. So the airline is probably between 1/4" and 3/8".

I've only heard good reports so presume it must move enough air not to be a problem. The only negatives I've heard are about the cost.

[turps]

keen to hear how it all turns out (including cost) as I would like to airbag my GQ when I work it my hieghts.

[Bush65]

Also how big are the air lines on your kit John?? I just had a look at the website and for the lean in and pitch up actions to be useful you'd want some pretty serious air movement going on so your not waiting to long.

Kit finally arrived. Air lines are 1/4". I'll see how that goes and if I'm not happy it will be simple to replace the fittings and use larger tubing.

[Bush65]

I edited my post near the top of this thread to fix what I incorrectly stated about being able to dislocate the airspring piston.

[Slunnie]

I edited my post near the top of this thread to fix what I incorrectly stated about being able to dislocate the airspring piston.

We had these problems on the HayR. trip. The bellow seperates from the ends and are just about impossible to get back in again.

[Turoa]

just a thought..... Couldn't you take the airbag parts out of a pre p38 RR and put it into the place of a coil. I think I read somewhere that they used the same mounts as you are able to convert an air sus RR back to coils.

May not have the travel you are looking for though

[Bush65]

I've started installing the airsprings. I believe I have sorted a method to allow the airspring to dislocate.

The Firestone airsprings that came with the AiRock kit are 21-1/4" extended (no air) - the data I was given are 21" extended (shockie to limit max extension to 20"), 6" compressed (bump stop to limit compressed length to 7"), Max diameter 7" (I assume at 100 psi).

By comparison Arnott Gen III rear airsprings for rangie are; 17-3/4" extended (14-3/4' front), 7-3/4" compressed (6-1/4" front), 6-5/8" dia at 100 psi.

The Firestone pistons are similar to the Arnott pistons so should behave similarly.

The problem with dislocating airsprings, is that they are still pressurised and will be damaged. I will try a coil spring inside the hollow piston, so at maximum shockie extension there will be spring force acting on the airspring. The piston should allow an extra 2" of travel.

Eibach list springs that should work. I have allowed for these in the mount for the piston and will order the springs after the holidays.

I will be using 14" shockies, but the location of them will allow a bit over 14" at the airsprings.

[Slunnie]

I like your thinking John.

I assume the spring load at max drop after 2" of extension will have to then be more than whats still in the airbag to stop that from fully unloading - .

[Bush65]

I like your thinking John.

I assume the spring load at max drop after 2" of extension will have to then be more than whats still in the airbag to stop that from fully unloading - .

That is what I need to achieve.

Unfortunately I don't have the Firestone force charts for this airspring, so first pass will be based upon the Arnott force charts - will play with spacers to adjust the spring compression at the stroke I want.

Or may just have to try other springs. Eibach have springs that cover a reasonable range either side of where I think it will be.

[rick130]

<snip>

Or may just have to try other springs. Eibach have springs that cover a reasonable range either side of where I think it will be.

or you can just get some springs wound to your specs.
A mate had Better Springs at St Mary's wind some Van Diemen Mono shock roll springs for him, can't remember the material Mark called for but Better didn't think they'd work (overstressed) as they are only about 1.5" diameter.
They worked fine.

Great info, thanks John.
I didn't realise the Firestone bags were so (relatively) cheap !

[zuffen]

John,

How did the instal go on the bags?

I'm thinking of bagging mine front and rear.

I'd like to be able to drop below 2 metres to fit into shopping centre car parks.

[Bush65]

John,

How did the instal go on the bags?

I'm thinking of bagging mine front and rear.

I'd like to be able to drop below 2 metres to fit into shopping centre car parks.

Air springs fitted, but have been too busy with other stuff to finish off.

So far just inflated with schraeder valves (emergency repair set), still some time before control system is installed. Have to get some material to complete the rear mounts.

I have a lot of other work before it is back on the road.