I've read alittle about this on here but I couldn't ind any exact information.
I'm hoping to run an water to air intercooler on my supercharged 1hz cruiser but I've had an idea about running my aircon gas through the intercooler instead of having another radiator blocking off air flow. The air con gas would probably cool the air much more efficiently than air or water because it is so cold.
How much pressure does the aircon gas circulate at? The intercoolers i'm looking at only have a pressure rating of 70psi.
If anyone out there has done this would the intercooler go on the discharge side of the pump before it goes into the cab or after it has gone into the cab but before it goes into the condensor?
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AirCon Gas through intercooler
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AirCon Gas through intercooler
More Suzuki parts going to the big Suzuki Heaven in the sky!
I'm speculating here as I can't really be bothered going through the maths ( there are others on here that have real expertise in this area... ) but I think you will find that to move the amount of heat required with an AC system would be quite a task - especially is your going to still continue to use the system to cool the vehicle as well.
Possible in theory - yes, practical in a 4WD not in my opinion. I've used the suction line to cool the fuel by passing it through a small clamp on heat exchanger but the extra load imposed on the system was quite small.
Water adsorbs a significant quantity of heat with quite small volumes in the system - making it a very attractive working fluid.
Be interested to hear from the professional fridgies .......
Possible in theory - yes, practical in a 4WD not in my opinion. I've used the suction line to cool the fuel by passing it through a small clamp on heat exchanger but the extra load imposed on the system was quite small.
Water adsorbs a significant quantity of heat with quite small volumes in the system - making it a very attractive working fluid.
Be interested to hear from the professional fridgies .......
( usual disclaimers )
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
im not 100% sure on the air temps from the turbo but i would suspect they would be something like 80 degrees plus, this is quite a high temperature you are trying to cool, the other drama is the flow rate,
air conds are designed to recirculate air in an area, thus lowering the temperature until the area is down to set point,
in the interooler department you are trying to cool a continuous heat lowed so the capacity of the system would be quite large,
im my honest opinion it wont work,
on the other hand, you could use a water to air system with a tank, and you could refrigerate the tank so your water temps could in theory be a lot lower, but it would take a few calculations to work out if it will work or not,
air conds are designed to recirculate air in an area, thus lowering the temperature until the area is down to set point,
in the interooler department you are trying to cool a continuous heat lowed so the capacity of the system would be quite large,
im my honest opinion it wont work,
on the other hand, you could use a water to air system with a tank, and you could refrigerate the tank so your water temps could in theory be a lot lower, but it would take a few calculations to work out if it will work or not,
Turn your ac on flat out and the air that comes out of the vents is not really that cold, that's why u only run the ac on 2 or 3 so the air has more time in the evaporator giving u cooler air.
Now if u times the heat of the air going into the unit x4 and the flow of the air going through the evap by 200 is aint going to do shit.
Now if u times the heat of the air going into the unit x4 and the flow of the air going through the evap by 200 is aint going to do shit.
Shane
It wouldn't work as well as water to air. Water has better heat transfer properties. An automotive A/C system can only be expected to remove about 20 degrees C at best with an ambient of 30 degrees.. at 80C it'll be lucky to pull 10 degrees out of the air, and then factor in the airflow it's probably down to 5...
[quote="Uhhohh"]As far as an indecent proposal goes, I'd accept nothing less than $100,000 to tolerate buggery. Any less and it's just not worth the psychological trauma. [/quote]
I've just heard of others on here that have done there system on here and got results.
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/phpBB2/ft ... ntercoolermorkz
Joined: 31 May 2004
Location: in the ghetto
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 11:17 pm Reply with quote Back to top
what about refridgerant gas ?
i.e. plumb your closed intercooler into the return line of your air con alot more denser easier to setup than water to air and much more efficient.
some people i know are working on this and once its finished the results will be interesting it has already been done on a blown rangie and they picked up something 20kw at the wheels.
alot of the comp diesel running over 160kw mainly just have a air to air intercooler and they're not that big mainly the size of the grill either on a gq or gu.
More Suzuki parts going to the big Suzuki Heaven in the sky!
You need to know what air intake temperature you want to achieve and how much volume of air you want to cool before messing around with it.
With the above information you can work out kW required to cool the air and then if you have any chance of achieving it with a car AC.
If you still wanted to cool the inside of the car as well you have no chance.
Dazza
With the above information you can work out kW required to cool the air and then if you have any chance of achieving it with a car AC.
If you still wanted to cool the inside of the car as well you have no chance.
Dazza
the simple problem i see with using aircon to intercool is the power it takes to run it.
even a stock unit takes something like 10kw to run it. is the cooled air going make your motor 10kw more efficient? i doubt it unless its horribly inefficent to start with ,which a supercharger could well be.
at least with air-air and water-air it cost minimal power.
if you have space for a big enough tank why not water/meth injection ?
even a stock unit takes something like 10kw to run it. is the cooled air going make your motor 10kw more efficient? i doubt it unless its horribly inefficent to start with ,which a supercharger could well be.
at least with air-air and water-air it cost minimal power.
if you have space for a big enough tank why not water/meth injection ?
I have a friend doing this on his zd30 early next year. I will dyno it and post up the results. It may alter a few peoples opinions.
Andy
Andy
www.diesel-tec.com.au Ph 03 9739 5031
Ball bearing turbo upgrades for factory turbo vehicles. Got a diesel question just ask.
Home of the twin turbo shorty and many 150rwkw+ patrols.
Ball bearing turbo upgrades for factory turbo vehicles. Got a diesel question just ask.
Home of the twin turbo shorty and many 150rwkw+ patrols.
Make certain its a sustained full load test.... getting the intercoler down to a low temperature and doing a single squirt is meaningless.
May as well use a Dry Ice intercooler like the drag boys run.
Its its ability to sustain intercooling that matters.
May as well use a Dry Ice intercooler like the drag boys run.
Its its ability to sustain intercooling that matters.
( usual disclaimers )
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
A small aircon evaporator in the tank that the gas passes through could cool the water a fair amount I'm guessing but I dunno what sums to do to work it outon the other hand, you could use a water to air system with a tank, and you could refrigerate the tank so your water temps could in theory be a lot lower, but it would take a few calculations to work out if it will work or not,
. It does kind of add another whole system that can break down tho.More Suzuki parts going to the big Suzuki Heaven in the sky!
but even if the refrigeration system breaks down, you still have a water to air intercooler there taking some of the load,Kitika wrote:A small aircon evaporator in the tank that the gas passes through could cool the water a fair amount I'm guessing but I dunno what sums to do to work it outon the other hand, you could use a water to air system with a tank, and you could refrigerate the tank so your water temps could in theory be a lot lower, but it would take a few calculations to work out if it will work or not,
it all comes down to what app your using the intercooler for, if its only road and bush i think you might as well go water to air, if its only street air to air,
personally id stick with water to air no matter what,
As already pointed out, the refrigeration gear to shift the heat load that an intercooler does is huge and power hungry.
An air/air intercooler sheds heat (many kilowatts worth, give me your boost and engine size and I'll tell you how many) and it does it without taking any external power and in a minimal amount of space.
A refrigeration unit will have to shed all the heat it takes from the charge-air, plus the heat it generates which is roughly the heat used to power it.
If you're doing 10kw worth of intercooling and have a 3kw refrigeration unit then you now need to shed 13kw of heat.
Sound like a dumb idea yet?
Also you've got a few safety concerns. If your engine ingests a typical refrigeration gas (say R134a) then you get chlorine and flourine gases coming out of your exhaust.
That crap kills the people who breathe it.
An air/air intercooler sheds heat (many kilowatts worth, give me your boost and engine size and I'll tell you how many) and it does it without taking any external power and in a minimal amount of space.
A refrigeration unit will have to shed all the heat it takes from the charge-air, plus the heat it generates which is roughly the heat used to power it.
If you're doing 10kw worth of intercooling and have a 3kw refrigeration unit then you now need to shed 13kw of heat.
Sound like a dumb idea yet?
Also you've got a few safety concerns. If your engine ingests a typical refrigeration gas (say R134a) then you get chlorine and flourine gases coming out of your exhaust.
That crap kills the people who breathe it.
A lot of Ford Lightnings use an air con chilled water tank for the W2A coolers in the States.
It works well for traffic light drags but it wouldn't last a run over big red or down Fraser Island where you were on the load pedal for a minute or more.
It works well for traffic light drags but it wouldn't last a run over big red or down Fraser Island where you were on the load pedal for a minute or more.
Cheers,
Zuffen
There's no such a thing as too much horsepower
Zuffen
There's no such a thing as too much horsepower
That's in a petrol where boost is only used when the right foot demands it.zuffen wrote:A lot of Ford Lightnings use an air con chilled water tank for the W2A coolers in the States.
It works well for traffic light drags but it wouldn't last a run over big red or down Fraser Island where you were on the load pedal for a minute or more.
Diesels use boost constantly.
Not sure why you'd want to supercharge a 1HZ either, but that's a topic for another thread.
The average car a/c pump takes about 3 to 5 HP. The big old 'York' compressors can take up to about 10hp. The new style eg Sanden 5 series, take about as much as a big alternator. Well they did 12 years ago when I was in the industry, I imagine they are even more efficient now.tweak'e wrote:the simple problem i see with using aircon to intercool is the power it takes to run it.
even a stock unit takes something like 10kw to run it. is the cooled air going make your motor 10kw more efficient? i doubt it unless its horribly inefficent to start with ,which a supercharger could well be.
at least with air-air and water-air it cost minimal power.
if you have space for a big enough tank why not water/meth injection ?
93 Nissan Pathfinder / Terrano Turboed VH45, GQ Trans and T-case, coil overs, hydraulic winch and fair bit of other stuff. (Currently a pile of parts in the workshop)
This has been done several times in the past, and one example was Audi used this technique on their Quattro rally cars.
We also put this setup on a street car about 5 years ago as a prototype for a circuit car, and the pressure involved is minimal as the cool gas is the low side of the restriction and we actually used a small tranny cooler in the plenum chamber.
However what we found was that this system only worked well when the car was moving and had good air flow though the front radiators. In the street applications this meant that when sitting at the lights the system would stop working to the point that on a hot day it would heat the inlet charge and when the light went green there was a lot of detonation if you where in a hurry.
But as soon as you got going it works extremely well, with maintaining inlet temperatures at around 21 degree in this application with reasonably high boost pressures for the street.
But this really is a race setup, and from my experience not suited the the general 4WD requirements. But a different design may be able to the resolve that.
A better solution might be to put gas vapour. on and then run the gas-converter coolant though the heat exchanger rather than the engine cooling system. This way the more fuel you use the more cooling you will have AND it is free energy, there is no requirements from the motor to drive a pump.
- David.
We also put this setup on a street car about 5 years ago as a prototype for a circuit car, and the pressure involved is minimal as the cool gas is the low side of the restriction and we actually used a small tranny cooler in the plenum chamber.
However what we found was that this system only worked well when the car was moving and had good air flow though the front radiators. In the street applications this meant that when sitting at the lights the system would stop working to the point that on a hot day it would heat the inlet charge and when the light went green there was a lot of detonation if you where in a hurry.
But as soon as you got going it works extremely well, with maintaining inlet temperatures at around 21 degree in this application with reasonably high boost pressures for the street.
But this really is a race setup, and from my experience not suited the the general 4WD requirements. But a different design may be able to the resolve that.
A better solution might be to put gas vapour. on and then run the gas-converter coolant though the heat exchanger rather than the engine cooling system. This way the more fuel you use the more cooling you will have AND it is free energy, there is no requirements from the motor to drive a pump.
- David.
Need a bigger shed...
This is true while the system is in operation. But when the pump stops the pressure in all parts climb to the gas pressure at that temperature.Dirty wrote:the pressure involved is minimal as the cool gas is the low side of the restriction
Given the probable heat soak from engine bay components that pressure will be well above the 70psi his intercooler is rated at.
And that still doesn't really answer the question "can a car A/C compressor shift the required heat form an intercooler ?"
The obvious answer would be NO - why would a manufacturer overspecify the A/C compressor / condensor by so much ? Perhaps a little leeway on cabin cooling but enough spare capacity to shift the significant heat load of an intercoler ? Hmmmm....
The obvious answer would be NO - why would a manufacturer overspecify the A/C compressor / condensor by so much ? Perhaps a little leeway on cabin cooling but enough spare capacity to shift the significant heat load of an intercoler ? Hmmmm....
( usual disclaimers )
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
A water tank chilled by air con with a valve at each end triggered by boost would be interesting in conjunction with one of our intercoolers.
Short burst or sprints would be fine but sustained boost such as towing would not suit.
An insulated tank for a $5 bag of ice would more than likely do better and be far simpler with the same valve set up.
Short burst or sprints would be fine but sustained boost such as towing would not suit.
An insulated tank for a $5 bag of ice would more than likely do better and be far simpler with the same valve set up.
http://www.fj40-2f-eti-locked-n-loaded.com
Advanced (HB) Intercoolers
http://advancedhbintercoolers.com
Advanced (HB) Intercoolers
http://advancedhbintercoolers.com
A 4.2 litre diesel being fed 15psi boost at 2000rpm presents just under 8kw of heat for the intercooler to remove.MightyMouse wrote:And that still doesn't really answer the question "can a car A/C compressor shift the required heat form an intercooler ?"
The obvious answer would be NO - why would a manufacturer overspecify the A/C compressor / condensor by so much ? Perhaps a little leeway on cabin cooling but enough spare capacity to shift the significant heat load of an intercoler ? Hmmmm....
If you've got an excellent intercooler you might get 3/4 of that out (6kw).
Given a realistic COP of about 3 (probably closer to 2.5) you need 2kw to drive your refrigerant compressor to shift that 6kw.
Your total heat load to reject through your radiator is now 8kw. Wasn't one of the goals to not preheat the radiators air?
Given the seriously sized heat-pump in my house can provide around that amount of cooling, it's pretty clear a car size system can't.
Thanks KB that's exactly the sort of sums I was expecting.........for a very limited application in very short bursts perhaps just might work, but for general use......KiwiBacon wrote:Given the seriously sized heat-pump in my house can provide around that amount of cooling, it's pretty clear a car size system can't.
I think more attention to a good air/water system would be much more effective.
( usual disclaimers )
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
Well now I'm confused.... those who do the calculations ( and seem to know their trade ) say its impractical - yet others claim to be able to frost a V8 intercooler on a 35C day.
That's just about as opposite set of conditions as I can think off.
I'm still struggling with how a small capacity automotive A/C compressor, designed to produce quite small temperature drops can shift so much heat. I'm also wondering how the condenser manages to dissipate this much heat as well
Some yeah or nay from the HVAC pro's ?
That's just about as opposite set of conditions as I can think off.
I'm still struggling with how a small capacity automotive A/C compressor, designed to produce quite small temperature drops can shift so much heat. I'm also wondering how the condenser manages to dissipate this much heat as well
Some yeah or nay from the HVAC pro's ?
( usual disclaimers )
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
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