centre mount winch

[XTREME MMM]

the end that will lift up, is the end that has the fairlead... you can have the winch mounted at the rear but the cable comming out the front, and ill tell you right now you wont be getting the back to lift up without the front lifting first!

Sorry to say that you are incorrect. You should go back to the drawing board and play with angles of pull and you will see what I am talking about

The vehicle in question was a Lada Niva with a rear mounted winch. Every time the front was stuck and winch was used the rear of the vehicle was lifting before the front would go over the obstacle. So this would be the same for any vehicle.

Again think guys.


Cheers yet again
David

[macca81]

the end that will lift up, is the end that has the fairlead... you can have the winch mounted at the rear but the cable coming out the front, and ill tell you right now you wont be getting the back to lift up without the front lifting first!

Wrote at a stupid size because he is over compensating for something

explain how that can happen.

the only way the rear would lift, is if it was actually pulling the mounting point physically closer to the front of the vehicle... or, your winching backwards.


just clarify, its a rear mounted winch, but where is the fairlead?

[bazuky]

who plays with lada niva's anyway?
but why dont tow trucks mount there winches at the front to get more lift and cranes could get more lift mounting on the rear .
come on dave crissy is over put down the xxxx andre think your statement for some reason people belive some of the stuff you say

[XTREME MMM]

the end that will lift up, is the end that has the fairlead... you can have the winch mounted at the rear but the cable coming out the front, and ill tell you right now you wont be getting the back to lift up without the front lifting first!

Wrote at a stupid size because he is over compensating for something

explain how that can happen.

the only way the rear would lift, is if it was actually pulling the mounting point physically closer to the front of the vehicle... or, your winching backwards.


just clarify, its a rear mounted winch, but where is the fairlead?

Again it was a rear mounted winch with fairlead at front.


The fairlead is only the pivot point not the anchor point, when you are winching you are pulling anchor point to anchor point, so do you think it is possible that the fairlead could become a pivot point between the two anchor points. I do.


I was not the only one to take note of the vehicle tending to lift the rear while winching, so we must all be seeing things.

Cheers
David

[XTREME MMM]

come on dave crissy is over put down the xxxx andre think your statement for some reason people belive some of the stuff you say

Chrissy beer is down, and I only tend to make statements when they are correct. And if people take my advice on things I must/could be saying the correct things.

Cheers
David

[Gwagensteve]

I only tend to make statements when I THINK they are correct. And if people take my advice on things I MIGHT NOT be saying the correct things.

Cheers
David

Just for balance.

You are expressing an opinion. Others can, and will, disagree. Just because you believe you doesn't mean we all have to.

On the record, I also believe that it only matters where the fairlead is. The Niva driver wasn't trying to drive to assist the winch was he? This may lift the rear if the front was jammed.

Steve.

[macca81]

the fairlead is not a pivot point. the cable will always want to stay straight, by making the fairlead a pivot point, you are trying to get the cable to go around a corner it doesnt want to go around. infact, for the front end to go down, the cable will actualy need to lengthen because the fairlead will be getting further front the anchor point... how is this happening under load?

i would like to believe that what your sayin may hold some truth, but there is not a single way that i can work out for your scenario to occur as long as the fairlead is at the front of the vehicle...


UNLESS your anchor point was considerably lower than the front of the car

[nzdarin]

In 4 years doing winch comps with a rear mounted winch the only time I've seen the rear wheels come off the ground in a winch, it didn't matter where the winch was and almost all of the trucks did the same thing.
I've actually done the same wall in the same truck at the Rotorua WC and the first year with front mounted winch and SWB it lifted the back wheels of the ground, the second year with rear winch and MWB it lifted the back of the ground.
One of the greatest advantages of a rear mounted winch is being able to get the fairlead very low and so create extra lift on the front of the truck.

If what you are saying is true, then when you winch from the side, it would pull the back of the truck around, and this never happens, unless the front is jammed up against something.
I'm not saying what you saw didn't happen, I'm saying the cause isn't what you think as there are other things that can cause this.
i will agree that a rear mounted winch isn't as efficient as it has more drag on the rope through the guides under the truck, however the other advantages far out weigh this.
Another thing to think about is how short a Lada is so if the front got buried it would take less effort to lift the rear opposed to the normal truck.

[uninformed]

what will make a difference to front digging in is whether it is leaf sprung or coil sprung.

imagin with leaf sprung the load travels down the chassis and through the leaves back into the chassis

imagine with coil the load travels down the chassis and back through the radius arms/links driving the front axle further down.....but if you have an axle winch you could tighten it up and save the front axle diving in....

Serg

[Tooheys]

I can see what dave means about the fairlead being a pivot point, but for it to lift the rear it really needs to be fixed so the vehicle can rotate around it.

I tend to agree with the others saying that the winch line always wants to return to a straight pull. And looking at the diagram a rear mount winch on an upward pull will actually have more uplift on the front because it has to travel further to become straight.

Only reason I can see for lifting the rear is a downward pull from the fairlead or that the front wheel was really jammed in and a front mounted winch/light in the arse swb would have done the same.

[Gwagensteve]

I still vote the driver was trying to drive to assist the winch. that would lighten the back end if circumstances were right.

Steve.

[rockcrawler31]

what will make a difference to front digging in is whether it is leaf sprung or coil sprung.

imagin with leaf sprung the load travels down the chassis and through the leaves back into the chassis

imagine with coil the load travels down the chassis and back through the radius arms/links driving the front axle further down.....but if you have an axle winch you could tighten it up and save the front axle diving in....

Serg

Horseshit. I drive a vehicle that has been converted from leaf to coil and the effect of winching on the vehicles dynamics has remained unchanged based on all other factors being the same. The front will bog down and the rear will lift regardless of leaf or coil, front or rear mount winch whenever the fairlead is in in the front of the vehicle.

Regardless of where the winch is, if the fairlead is at the front of the car then it is the last hard mounted point on the car that is guiding the cable. As long as the fairlead is above the horizontal line that describes the points joining the front and rear axle centres when viewed from the side, it will try to pull the front of the car down (and the rear of the car up) if the anchor is below the fairleads horizontal axis. There are three points in this lever which are the fairlead, the front tyre contact patch and the anchor. Regardless of whether the winch is 5 inches or 5 feet behind the fairlead the lever tangents are still the same. How about you all stop taking liberty with the laws of physics.

[rockcrawler31]

I'm also assuming that you're talking about when your trying to winch up and over something a la like the river cliffs at cliffhanger and OBC

[bj on roids]

I bet the mid mounted winch on the GQ pictured earlier in this thread would not cause the back to lift under any winching circumstances in normal use.

[uninformed]

I'm also assuming that you're talking about when your trying to winch up and over something a la like the river cliffs at cliffhanger and OBC

i was thinking more muddy type situations with logs or the like... both axles will dig in but i feel that coil sprung rigs will be worse..... if speed wasnt a factor, attaching the winch cable through a block back to the axle casing would be desirable..... maybe, mabye not???


im not the best at describing things... check this out:

http://www.yican.com.au/ADR/TechADR.html

Serg

[Shadow]

what will make a difference to front digging in is whether it is leaf sprung or coil sprung.

imagin with leaf sprung the load travels down the chassis and through the leaves back into the chassis

imagine with coil the load travels down the chassis and back through the radius arms/links driving the front axle further down.....but if you have an axle winch you could tighten it up and save the front axle diving in....

Serg

Horseshit. I drive a vehicle that has been converted from leaf to coil and the effect of winching on the vehicles dynamics has remained unchanged based on all other factors being the same. The front will bog down and the rear will lift regardless of leaf or coil, front or rear mount winch whenever the fairlead is in in the front of the vehicle.

Regardless of where the winch is, if the fairlead is at the front of the car then it is the last hard mounted point on the car that is guiding the cable. As long as the fairlead is above the horizontal line that describes the points joining the front and rear axle centres when viewed from the side, it will try to pull the front of the car down (and the rear of the car up) if the anchor is below the fairleads horizontal axis. There are three points in this lever which are the fairlead, the front tyre contact patch and the anchor. Regardless of whether the winch is 5 inches or 5 feet behind the fairlead the lever tangents are still the same. How about you all stop taking liberty with the laws of physics.

in this circumstance the rear of the vehicle will lift.

In the circumstance above posted by Tooheys, the rear of the vehicle will not lift, the front will lift.

This is basic geometry.

[bazuky]

but dave said it was on a lada niva and dont they have ifs (two big dirt/rock/log/any thing that sits higher than a standard tire )witch would grab/bite in and going back to the angle s and laws of phisics could make the front of the pos dig in and the rear lift a little ?

[macca81]

the rear wont lift unless the anchor point is below the fairlead. simple as that. the front wheels wont bog down unless the front of the vehicle is being pulled down! god why is it so hard to convince people of such simple concepts sometimes??

[itsracin]

Well Instead of mounting the front winch at the rear, I think i'll just mid mount the rear winch for weight distrubution.

If what people say about lifting the rear why has alot of the out back guys mid mounted theirs

Chad.

[uninformed]

the rear wont lift unless the anchor point is below the fairlead. simple as that. the front wheels wont bog down unless the front of the vehicle is being pulled down! god why is it so hard to convince people of such simple concepts sometimes??

so if you lift the front of your rig up with a crane do the wheels instantly come of the ground as the rig starts to lift????

..... the suspension droops... so if pulling out of a bog hole, would it not be better to be pulling the axle, as its the lowest point, you will pull it towards the anchor point which in some cases will be higher, therefore pulling the rig "out" of the bog more, rather than letting the wheels dig in...

just how im seeing it.

mabye what dave is saying is that if the rig comes up aginst something really hard and the front axle just really wants to dig in and not climb over the obsticle, the front wheels become a pivot point...


i could be 100% wrong as im only trying to think about this stuff, no real world experience here...

Serg

[nzdarin]

the rear wont lift unless the anchor point is below the fairlead. simple as that. the front wheels wont bog down unless the front of the vehicle is being pulled down! god why is it so hard to convince people of such simple concepts sometimes??

Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pretty simple but some knowledge can be a very dangerous thing!

[Gwagensteve]

god why is it so hard to convince people of such simple concepts sometimes??

This is why:

I only tend to make statements when they are correct. And if people take my advice on things I must/could be saying the correct things.

Cheers
David

Steve.

[Shadow]

mabye what dave is saying is that if the rig comes up aginst something really hard and the front axle just really wants to dig in and not climb over the obsticle, the front wheels become a pivot point...


i could be 100% wrong as im only trying to think about this stuff, no real world experience here...

Serg

this is possible

however, the forces youd need are huge, somewhere in the order of 10-20 times the weight over the rear axle.

[frp88]

what will make a difference to front digging in is whether it is leaf sprung or coil sprung.

imagin with leaf sprung the load travels down the chassis and through the leaves back into the chassis

imagine with coil the load travels down the chassis and back through the radius arms/links driving the front axle further down.....but if you have an axle winch you could tighten it up and save the front axle diving in....

Serg

Horseshit. I drive a vehicle that has been converted from leaf to coil and the effect of winching on the vehicles dynamics has remained unchanged based on all other factors being the same. The front will bog down and the rear will lift regardless of leaf or coil, front or rear mount winch whenever the fairlead is in in the front of the vehicle.

Regardless of where the winch is, if the fairlead is at the front of the car then it is the last hard mounted point on the car that is guiding the cable. As long as the fairlead is above the horizontal line that describes the points joining the front and rear axle centres when viewed from the side, it will try to pull the front of the car down (and the rear of the car up) if the anchor is below the fairleads horizontal axis. There are three points in this lever which are the fairlead, the front tyre contact patch and the anchor. Regardless of whether the winch is 5 inches or 5 feet behind the fairlead the lever tangents are still the same. How about you all stop taking liberty with the laws of physics.

in this circumstance the rear of the vehicle will lift.

In the circumstance above posted by Tooheys, the rear of the vehicle will not lift, the front will lift.

This is basic geometry.

sorry not having a go at the diagram but why would you winch downhill against an object. this would be unlikely or am i not getting it

[jeremy]

I can vouch for what Darin is saying. Mid-mounted winches are very common here in NZ and for good reason. Where they are mounted makes no difference to the pivot point they pull from.

The only truck I've seen have serious lift in the rear while winching was a GU trayback with a low-mount electric winch mounted in the standard bullbar up front. I'd say that generally a truck with a mid-mounted winch is less likely to have this problem as they often have much less hanging out in front so have a better approach angle and are less likely to digg the front into the bank while winching.

And no, they don't have to be less efficient than a front mounted winch. We have a straight line pull from the fairlead at the front to the winch mounted behind the cab (no extra guides) and having the fairlead mounted nice and low actually makes things more efficient. Combine that with the better weight distribution, approach angle and a cable that always spools on nicely and you soon start to wonder why you stuck with a front mount winch for so long?

[Taff]

mabye what dave is saying is that if the rig comes up aginst something really hard and the front axle just really wants to dig in and not climb over the obsticle, the front wheels become a pivot point...


i could be 100% wrong as im only trying to think about this stuff, no real world experience here...

Serg

this is possible

however, the forces youd need are huge, somewhere in the order of 10-20 times the weight over the rear axle.

and also in this situation its still irrelevant where the winch is mounted

[Shadow]

mabye what dave is saying is that if the rig comes up aginst something really hard and the front axle just really wants to dig in and not climb over the obsticle, the front wheels become a pivot point...


i could be 100% wrong as im only trying to think about this stuff, no real world experience here...

Serg

this is possible

however, the forces youd need are huge, somewhere in the order of 10-20 times the weight over the rear axle.

and also in this situation its still irrelevant where the winch is mounted

Correct.

Only thing that matters is the fairlead position.

[turps]

the rear wont lift unless the anchor point is below the fairlead. simple as that. the front wheels wont bog down unless the front of the vehicle is being pulled down! god why is it so hard to convince people of such simple concepts sometimes??

so if you lift the front of your rig up with a crane do the wheels instantly come of the ground as the rig starts to lift????

..... the suspension droops... so if pulling out of a bog hole, would it not be better to be pulling the axle, as its the lowest point, you will pull it towards the anchor point which in some cases will be higher, therefore pulling the rig "out" of the bog more, rather than letting the wheels dig in...

just how im seeing it.

mabye what dave is saying is that if the rig comes up aginst something really hard and the front axle just really wants to dig in and not climb over the obsticle, the front wheels become a pivot point...


i could be 100% wrong as im only trying to think about this stuff, no real world experience here...

Serg

I have seen something like this at the Werribe Ateco. There was a bitch of a bog hole on our stage. THe problem was the tyres where digging underneath the lip (due to the tree roots). All three cars that attempted the stage before it was changed did the same thing.
First two where Zuks, 1 Vitara and a Serria. The Serria even had a himount. But with the line of pull and the wheels under a ledge. It was trying to lift the rear.
On the Rangie, it started to lift the rear before suction got hold and it was just stuck. Needed a Big Front end loader to get it out.

I still think Dave is incorrect and the direction of pull is dictated by the last fixed point on a vehicle wether front,mid or rear mounted. But is affected by the way the vehicle is stuck ie the wedged front wheels of the examples above.