Runva 10,000lb Hydraulic Winch Install

[PBBIZ2]

David,
thanks for the heads up. I have called or emailed all 3 on the thread, awaiting feedback, most likely tomorrow.
Phil

[Dirty]

David,

I have pulled my winch apart and can gaurantee it has a brake. (I wanted to see how well it was made.) It uses 3 brake pads and you cannot actuate it from a handle on the outside. It works automatically whenever the drum tries to drive backwards on the motor.

Grant.

Well there you go. I haven't pulled the gearbox side apart yet. So this would be to partially remove the need for a over-centre valve.

Something that I might remove one day as the system should work fine without the brake and it is just something that is likely to jam.

- David.

[PBBIZ2]

Guys,

I have checked out the fitment of every single pump mentioned on this forum, making cardboard models of basic sizes etc before choosing. Sounds a bit anal I'm sure, but spending $700 on a pump you need to be sure.

The Muncie and Northern Tool Pumps were physically too large, and required remote reservoirs of large size to cope with the flowrates.

The original Vickers was too expensive at $1800, and the chinese version was not avail with a factory supplied reservoir, plus i didn't get a comfortable feel of waranty or backup - cheap though at $114USD plus freight.

Rock Assault pumps ended up fairly expensive also when they were optioned up.

I have finsihed up going conservative, at least by comparison with others in the thread. I selected the AGR Performance Super Pump with remote reservoir and higher volume flow rotor. It is rated at 1600psi and is supplied with an orifice that can be drilled out to increase flowrate. The supplied orifice will deliver 5GPM. It can be drilled out to deliver 8.5GPM.
The remote reservoir is 3" dia x 8" tall and has an internal filter and a vented cap. Minimum recommended hose size is 3/8" supply and 5/8" return. I will be running 1/2" supply and 3/4" return. This pump is approx 4" dia, so will fit in a small slot I have avail.

In this configuration it costs $525USD. I am having it shipped to Milemarker in Florida for packing with the winch. Internal US shipping is $20. Delivery leadtime is 2-3 weeks.

The pump can be driven by a single 'A' section 13mm belt at low rpm. I will have mine setup to run at 1400rpm at the pump which corresponds with the max pump flowrate. I will removethe belt before and after winching using a quick release set-up - yet to be dreamed up.

Regarding the drive setup from the engine crank pulley - this is a sticky issue from where I stand. The setup on the 2.8L TD GQ has the PS, alt/water pump, and aircon , piggy backed and secured to the harmonic balancer by 6 off M6 bolts plus a 6mm dia location peg. Apart from bolting all these multiple pieces together, which is poor practice, I have some doubts abot driving the pump off an additional pulley, stuck on the outside of the Aircon pulley as already noted.

The only other option I see is to modify the waterpump pulley and do the drive there instead, but concerned about bearing load and crapping ut the pump.

I would appreciate some comment and recommendations on the drive setup please. I have been down to a machine shop in Melb and they want $500 to supply a spacer and veebelt - aint gonna happen with them.

[raptorthumper]

It's a bit hard to recommend the best way of driving it without some pics as i am not familiar with other engines than the TB45. My setup may give you some ideas though.

As far as my Pump is concerned it is 19.6cc/rev which is half the displacement of the biggest pumps mentioned in this thread (38cc and 41cc/rev). That means it will still be fairly fast. Only a factor of 2 difference. (EDIT: the gear pumps are rated to 3000rpm before flow drops off much so they will be significantly faster than mine after 1500rpm as the power steering pump flow is controlled.)

I have finished the pump bracket and all bolts up and fits well. These pics are on my old blown engine. I just need to pick up a 13A 975mm long belt and fit the modified idler pulley now.

















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[raptorthumper]

To keep the AC you could possibly fit Hyd Pump here and add an idler to loop the belt around, so it still gets good wrap on all pulleys.




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[PBBIZ2]

Raptorthumper,

thanks for the pics. The 2.8 TD is totally different as you would imagine. Where you have the pump mounted is my aircon, which is staying. On top of the aircon is my aftermarket 200A/100% duty cycle alternator, also staying. On the left side, as shown in your second message, thats where the factory PS pump sits. The PS pump is weany and jammed in between a couple of bracket and has the radiator pipe return just behind it. These motor designers just have no regard to guys like us who want to do something different!

How is your harmonic balancer and pulley setup secured? I am guessing it isn't secured by 6mm bolts?

Anyway, I will wait until the pump and winch arrives to sort out the brackets. AGR don't have drawings of any of their pumps, they just make and sell standard items - then again it probably the laid back US attitude of 'can't be bothered' that reins supreme - I know first hand as have worked for 2 US companies.

Phil

[PBBIZ2]

Raptorthumper,
forget the question about the harmonic ballancer - just opened my eyes and sawthe big nut in the centre of the pulley. I guess the harmonic ballancer and pulleys are pone piece? Wish I had this setup. Might have to investigate adapting a 4.2 unit to mine or something custom, but thats for later.

[narnturbogq]

My patrol is a rb30, the aircon pulley isnt bolted it is a one piece casting, the rd28 is the diesel version of the rb30, so the harmonic balancer could be interchangable? In japan they use the rd28 crank in rb25's to stroke them to 2.8 so fingers crossed it might work.

When you plumb the return line from the tank to the pump, make sure that you use hose with a very high vacum rating, as the hose can be sucked flat, blocking flow and causing cavitation. This was part of the problem with my high flowed saginaw pump.

Raptorthumper, how are you going to tension your belts? Hows progress on the new engine?

Good luck fellas, keep us informed. -Andrew

[PBBIZ2]

Thanks Andrew, have rung Nissan, waiting on return call, will advise Y/N of pulley can be swapped

[PBBIZ2]

Just spoke with Nissan. Part numbers are different, for balancer, but they share common part numbers for washers and bolts and shims, so suspect they are not interchangeable. Thinking abouut it, would think there are different out of balance loads between te two motors - maybe enough to warrant a different unit. I will investigate the VL comm. unit and see if its that great a difference physically.

Interestingly, Nissan don't list or show the clamping bolts on my sub assembly, which is a mystery - lucky I don't have to replace them.

[narnturbogq]

Here are some pics of the belt setups on my old MQ.(excuse the cobwebs)


Supercharger Pulley and adapter/ 2nd pulley welded to water pump pulley

Supercharger belt layout with idler/tensioner

Supercharger idler and modified water pump pulley

Supercharger pulley and adapter

Supercharger pulley and adapter/ multi-vee pulley bolted to alternator to run magna power steering pump.

Hopefully these pics will shed some light on a few different options. (Sorry i didnt post the pics earlier but i have only just worked out how to do it) -Andrew

[PBBIZ2]

Andrew,

thanks for these shots. I am actually considering a drive off the alternator pulley as it is currently driven by a 2A section 13mm drive. Since the alternator won't be seeing a high current draw, it won't be putting a great load on the belts. I will need to adapt 'something again, but this is a definite possibility. Also, the pump only needs a single A section drive belt.

For the record, how do you attach the images to the message - is a cut and paste operation? I will take some shots tonight and drop them on, just so you see the issues in my installation.

[narnturbogq]

Sorry forgot to mention the extra pulley on the water pump pulley was used to run an endless air compressor prior to the supercharger (SC14 Toyata) being fitted. The endless air was where the supercharger sits and as you can see there wasnt any room left in the bay for it. (has since been fitted to my GQ). There were no issues with pump bearing life as the two belts were pulling against each other. -Andrew

[narnturbogq]

To post pics you have to upload them to a site with a publicly accessable server, i used http://s610.photobucket.com, then enter the image address in as you type your reply in. It sounds a bit difficult but once you get the hang of it it is easy(take it from me if i can work it out with me very limited computer skills, anyone can!!!!!) -Andrew

[raptorthumper]

This is how the belt goes. I just modded the std tensioner a little.















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[PBBIZ2]

That is one hell of a bracket! Nice job.

[narnturbogq]

Heres some pics of my setup.

My patrol (in the middle of a RB30 turbo upgrade)

The winch pump, modified Saginaw (vt commodore)

Another view of the pump and bracket.

The header tank and valves. The return (blue hose) has a pipe welded on to the fitting that ends 40mm from the bottom tank(to stop vortex effect in tank, leading to cavitation) Missing from this shot is the second battery which is normally next to the tank(on right)

The counterbalance valve mounted on the winch motor

My cooler is an ex mazda Rx4 engine oil cooler

This is the front view of the cooler mounted on the bar

A bottom view of the endless air, mounted where the factory alternator goes and belt running up to the alternator

The top view of the endless air and the alternator (130amp Toyota cruiser). The alternator was moved up high in the engine bay as the original one was killed by Tollangi's finest soupy mud.

As you can see my engine bay is pretty tight (missing from these shots are the intercooler pipes and dual battery, taken out for the up grade) but with a few mods it all fits. The only change needed is a new adjuster needed on the endless air, as it tends to lose tension when working the throttle hard in 4WD low, causing the belt to squeal.

The winch is awsomely powerful, as stated earlier in this thread, but slow. It would be fine for the average person (around the same speed as a low mount) with a tourer, etc. , but i'm after comp type speeds to prove to the disbelievers (mates with warn 8274's) that when the going gets really tough, a properly set up hydraulic winch will smoke them.

A modified warn 8274 with a 6hp motor $3200, extra batteries 2x$300 and an upgraded alternator $300min plus upgraded wiring to suit $300??. This adds up to $4100 approx.
My winch cost $1100, an electric clutch pump $1000 approx, counterbalance, DCV and hoses $800 and tank $200. this adds up to $3100, i know which one i would have!!!, but then again i'm biased.

- Andrew

[PBBIZ2]

Andrew,
great shots and wealth of information. I thought I had a tight installation, but compared to yours, I'm in clover!
I have found a pulley to drive the pump over the weekend, now just need it bored out to suit the spigot on the crank assy and I'm away. I have gone the crank location after weighing up the other options. I figure the intermittent load will be acceptable, plus its not a comp truck running high performance pressures or flows, so it will be fine. I will post some shots once the pump arrives, with the winch, but suspect it could be 2 months before its ready to roll.
I notice you have stayed with the standard radiator fan, as against going electric? Any reasons for this or just no need to change? I don't have overheating problems, but was considering to go this way to give me move room up front. I have seen the EL falcon fans mounted on nissan rediators a couple of times - any thoughts on this setup? Pair of 14-16" dia units.
Phil

[narnturbogq]

PHIL

Yeah mate she is tight you can imagine what it would be like if I was running air con!!!

I have run both types of fans, my supercharged MQ had to run twin thermos because there wasnt room to run the factory fan, as you can see in one of the earlier belt shots, they were mounted on a sealed alluminium shroud and they would easily cope with cooling the engine at low loads, but temps would rise quickly at high loads or low range work, even in the middle of winter. A mate of mine has a Suzuki Sierra with a supercharged ecotec V6 in it, and he had the exact same problem, he swaped to an engine driven fan (adapted to the water pump), and no overheating problems at all. My turbo 202 Mitsubishi work truck was exactly the same story.

In my experience you should always stick with the factory engine driven, unless there no other option, plus thermos can pop fuses at any time, usually at the worst time, and they dont like water, believe me both these have happened to me, so im a bit gun shy when it comes to thermos. The 3hp it takes to run the engine fan could mean the difference between making it home and not!!! -Andrew

[Dirty]

Does anyone have any specification on the various factory PS pumps?

The real question that I am looking at answering is that how do all of the pumps that we have talked about here compare in the volume and pressure stakes.

Is a VT pump any better than a GU or Cruiser pump?

How far away are they from some of the other pumps we are talking about?

I unfortunately don't have any product catalogues to compare these on, but there are plenty of opinions around on this subject, just haven't seen the comparison of apple-apple facts.

- David.

[PBBIZ2]

David,

good luck! I spent an hour on the phone to Nissan and only got what was already documented in the manual. Nissan Aust used to have a technical dept, but no more. Also spoke with two PS pump sellers/refurbishment businesses, and all they are focused on is the system pressure and if it leaks - flowrates are 'about 3-4GPM at a guess'.

Phil

[raptorthumper]

Got the winch and bar fitted this weekend and am pretty happy with it. The winch drum does 15 revs/min @ 1800rpm engine speed which means it winches @ 3.75 m/min on the first layer and gets faster on succesive layers. (I think the manifold i made is slightly restrive on the inlet port as the winch drum rotates @ 10 revs/min @ 1000 rpm engine speed, so going up to 1800 rpm doesn't provide 1.8 times the flow.) I'm not quite getting rated flow, because i didn't use the small auxilary inlet port.

Theoretically @ 28.38 lpm (rated flow) and 50cc/rev motor with 33:1 reduction it should do:

hyd motor speed = 28.38/50*1000 = 560rpm

Drum speed = 560/33 = 16.97 rpm

cable speed with effective drum dia of (72mm+10mm cable)
= 0.082*3.1415927*16.97
= 4.37 m/min

Anyway under full load it is faster than any lowmount electric winch so i am happy with it. The biggest clutch pumps mentioned earlier in this thread are rated at over 100 litres/min, so would be at least 3 - 3.5 times as fast as what i have (and you would need to rev your motor to 3000rpm to achieve this.) This is for the real comp trucks, as you need big lines and valves for that flow, but would put a twin motor 8274 warn to shame.

[narnturbogq]

At full load a high mount isn't much faster than a low mount, its the no load speed where the high mount wins, due to having a spur gear setup vs a planetry gear setup.

Rapterthumper, you'd have to be pretty happy with the results!! Could you post a few pics of your setup for us to have to a look, by any chance? What do you think the total cost has ended up at? I bet it's cheaper than a warn lowmount, and faster!!!

-Andrew

[raptorthumper]

I had to replace my 600x300x76 intercooler and fit one of these. 530x230x69. I didn't want to modify the Bar and space it out to clear the intercooler so i just got a smaller one that didn't hang down as much.


Does the Ox / Mile Marker fit in a std winch bar and bolt holes. It looks like it needs to be offset to one side with that long motor sticking out.

[PBBIZ2]

I checked with TJM about fitment of the Ox 10500lb, which is the 12000 MM, derated to allow for reduced flow and pressure of the Nissan standard PS pump. They assured me it was a straightforward easy fit with the ARB Deluxe bar. Certainly by the spec sheet it fits ok.

Just had a massive earth tremor in Knoxfield Vic, felt like the roof was going to cave in for about 3 secs! Apologies for the off topic remark.

[narnturbogq]

Raptorthumper, have you tested the winch under load yet? Would I be right in assuming that the silver tank zippy tied in place is the reservoir for the hydraulic pump. What happened to the air con? Deemed it not needed? Or just not enough room? I Know what it's like trying to fit everything into an already crowded engine bay. Why couldn't Nissan have set the engine bays up with us turbo converters in mind!!!! -Andrew

[raptorthumper]

Yeah the reservoir is ziptied in for now. I am making a sheetmetal bracket off the engine to hold it properly. A/C is gone for now.

I have tested it under load, on my gravel driveway with the brakes on and all 4 wheels locked up. I want to try it out in anger soon, but might modify my oil inlet manifold as i am sure it can be 30% quicker.

[raptorthumper]

This is probably considered normal, but i have the Genuine Nissan winch bar fitted to my GU and have twice now adjusted the bar, position wise so it fits the guards perfectly. After winching under heavy load regardless of how tight i have done up the 6 Bull bar bolts, the bull bar pulls down and outwards under the winch load.

I am just going to leave the bar where it is now (it can't move anymore in the slotted holes). Does this happen to everyone else.?

[RoldIT]

This is probably considered normal, but i have the Genuine Nissan winch bar fitted to my GU and have twice now adjusted the bar, position wise so it fits the guards perfectly. After winching under heavy load regardless of how tight i have done up the 6 Bull bar bolts, the bull bar pulls down and outwards under the winch load.

I am just going to leave the bar where it is now (it can't move anymore in the slotted holes). Does this happen to everyone else.?

Yep.

[1MadEngineer]

David,

good luck! I spent an hour on the phone to Nissan and only got what was already documented in the manual. Nissan Aust used to have a technical dept, but no more. Also spoke with two PS pump sellers/refurbishment businesses, and all they are focused on is the system pressure and if it leaks - flowrates are 'about 3-4GPM at a guess'.

Phil

try ~2.5 to 3.5GPM at best!!