Rear pinion seal on 80 series

[ferog]

Hey guys,

Any one bursting with information on changing the rear pinion seal on a 93 Dx 80 series.? Goref

What is the nut size for the pinion...? Will we need a crush spacer..? and is there any special tricks when doing the seal ?

It started to drip a little after a bit of a bump, has settled down since though i think it may only be temporarily clogged ?

That and i also am due to change a hub seal in the front maybe both.

Ta.

[dumbdunce]

http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modul ... ollapsible

the nut is 32mm. it will probably be difficult to undo without air tools or arms like popeye.

you can (and should) change the seal without replacing the spacer, assuming the bearings are still good. you need to do the nut back up to the exact same position (possibly a few degrees tighter to take up any minor wear in the bearings, it's a bit of a "feel" thing) it was in when you took it off, so take extra care when unstaking the pinch. if you undo with air tools there is no need to unstake, the pinch will fold out neatly when you start spinning the nut.

if you choose to change the spacer, it is necessary to remove the axles to be able to accurately measure the preload on the pinion bearing. This has the disadvantage of making it difficult to do up the pinion nut with sufficient torque to get the preload right, without re-fitting the axles. if you're on your own it will involve a lot of axles-in-do-up-nut-axles-out-meaure-preload-repeat-till-preload-correct. add to that it is very difficult with the diff still in the truck to get enough torque on the nut when working under there with the truck not on a hoist - the longest breaker bar you can use is about 40cm and that isn't enough.

you will probably also need a puller to get the front bearing out if you change the spacer. and sometimes the pinion falls in when the front bearing is out making it a real pain to get the front bearing back in and the nut on without three hands and hanging your tongue out the corner of your mouth exactly right. if you're pulling the front bearing you might as well replace it. you've already got the axles out so might as well drop the diff out and change all the bearings... rebuilding the diff, might as well slap an airlocker in there while you're at it... if that all sounds too hard/expensive, just change the seal and do it all back up

check the seal running surface on the pinion flange, if there is ANY noticable scoring then whack a speedisleeve on there, saves headaches later.



as for hub seals in the front - are you talking inner axle seal, wheel bearing seal, locking hub gaskets, or the whole shebang? ie where do you notice it leaking from?

cheers

Brian

[POS]

For the Front Hub seal, just wait till the OWW, one of us will certainly bust a CV . You could then watch and see for yourself how its done! Its always good to see someone do it!

As for the rear pinion seal, unless you have someone there that is very very very strong or you have access to air tools then don't even bother starting!

Rod Dirte' had to change one in the bush and it took 3 fully grown men on the end of a 1 metre breaker bar to undo it! They are farking toight (toight like a toiger)

As your vehicle does quite a few K's it is very important to get the Pre load set spot on, otherwise like Dumby has said you will burn out the bearings and then they will colapse and thats when the trouble starts!! I would swing by a Mechanics and just find out how much it will cost to get them to do it!You may find that its quite a cheap procedure!

[dumbdunce]

...swing by a Mechanics and just find out how much it will cost to get them to do it!You may find that its quite a cheap procedure!

or you might find they won't want to touch it because of the collapsible spacer business - mechanics are required to warranty their work and although it's a 15 minute job, it can end up costing them $$$ to get your diff rebuilt for you if they get the preload wrong.

I'll fix it up if you can't find someone closer who is keen and reasonable on price. All customers get a free look and giggle at Squashed Grandpa 80

[dow50r]

Gday
Heres another option...put a few drops only of brake fluid in the rear diff oil....(works for Rover)
Andrew

[dumbdunce]

Gday
Heres another option...put a few drops only of brake fluid in the rear diff oil....(works for Rover)
Andrew

what's the logic behind this hack, Andrew? never heard of it.

[dow50r]

Gday
Heres another option...put a few drops only of brake fluid in the rear diff oil....(works for Rover)
Andrew

what's the logic behind this hack, Andrew? never heard of it.

Apparently, Rover service centres use this as common practice to stop oil leaks....Brake fluid swells seals quite a bit... a friend tried it in his power steering on an 80, and the box stopped leaking....so there you go.....FWIW i wouldnt try it, even though i picked it up from one of these forums...cant remember if it was exploroz or outerlimits...
Now to the pinion flange....my OPINION ha ha is that the seal should be changed if there i no movement in the pinion bearings as it is, if there is, it will only be leaking again in a few months...whilst there, u might aswell do the lot,especially if it is lsd...u can fit a locker aswell
Andrew

[ferog]

Hmm what if i put a little brake fluid in it for the trip north? Then fix it when im back. Would that affect it negatively in anyway?

Brian are you going to W/W ? You can come up with us in goref provided you help nurse him if anything goes wrong.
Thankyou for your advice ! Really appreciate it, what im going to do is talk to Jeremy/Surfection and see what we are able to come up with tool wise, plus get some quotes from pro's see what they think.

Really would like to get a locker in soon but its all a matter of $. First option of doing it ourselves was the most attractive, but by what Im hearing its starting to get a little ugly. Still would like to try.

The seal thats leaking is both sides the drivers side is worse on the inner wheel a bit of gunk building up round it.. Im guessing the whole shebang isn't going to be in top nic.

So Adrian.. You bust a CV im on it toiger.! Well I'll certainly watch.


Thanks guys.

[spazbot]

em the felts on the knuckle(if thats what your talking about) are pretty easy to replace may aswell buy a complete hub rebuild kit and do it all at once will prolly take a day and a few cans to do

[dumbdunce]

Hmm what if i put a little brake fluid in it for the trip north? Then fix it when im back. Would that affect it negatively in anyway?

Like Andrew the Wise Old 80 series Oracle says, and I probably neglected to mention, the very first thing you have to do is check the pinion shaft for up-down/side-side movement, and if there is ANY play then it's probably time for a rebuild. the exception to that would be if the nut has come undone, which is unlikely. if there is play and the nut is tight, there's not much point in changing the seal, a new one will only leak too. I have had some limited success with re-torqueing pinion nuts as a short term solution, but also some failures. I've had one that was loose, torqued up and still in service over 50,000km later, but have seen them fail within 1000km too.

Brian are you going to W/W ? You can come up with us in goref provided you help nurse him if anything goes wrong.
Thankyou for your advice ! Really appreciate it, what im going to do is talk to Jeremy/Surfection and see what we are able to come up with tool wise, plus get some quotes from pro's see what they think.

no I can't, don't tempt me, arrgh! we're going to Perth the next weekend and have too much to catch up before we leave. would have been cool to see the buggies in action :(

Really would like to get a locker in soon but its all a matter of $. First option of doing it ourselves was the most attractive, but by what Im hearing its starting to get a little ugly. Still would like to try.

try and hold out on the locker until you get the diff fixed, you will save time and $ by getting them done at the same time to avoid having to pull the diff out twice. if it's not noisy and there's no movement in the pinion, go the seal swap and cross your fingers. if it starts to go south, you can drop the rear tailshaft out and drive it on the front diff for any distance.

The seal thats leaking is both sides the drivers side is worse on the inner wheel a bit of gunk building up round it.. Im guessing the whole shebang isn't going to be in top nic.

the seal you need to change to fix that is buried deep inside, under the CV, so to change it you need to do pretty much the same job as a CV change, but as the olil will have diluted the grease in the CV, knuckle and wheel bearings they will all have to be thoroughly cleaned, dried and repacked with grease. it's not a real difficult job but it is fiddly, there are a lot of bits involved.

So Adrian.. You bust a CV im on it toiger.! Well I'll certainly watch.

see if you can get him to crack my 12 minute record. No helpers, hand tools only, drive in - drive out.

[Shadow]

Dig dig

So I replaced the Pinion flange and seal from the old style flange (pre 84? square type) to the later style (post 84 round flange) so i can use it in my 84 fj45 ute.

I torqued the nut up to 150 ft/lb (200Nm).

The nut does not line up with the old spot, and it isnt 180degrees out either. (2 start thread)

Does the new flange play a role in the position of the nut? Im guessing(hoping) there will be slight differences between flanges which would mean the nut wont line up.

Am I going to have problems with the diff?

I didnt measure preload as axles are in and i dont have a tool to measure it either, but it feels good. Theres no movement up/down in the pinion, and it feels as though theres a small amount of resistance to spinning the pinion (in the very small 3degrees of backlash that exist).

Should i stop there? Or should i torque it more??

[dumbdunce]

if there's no up/down/side/side movement in the pinion flange, stop there, she'll be roit.

edit: would have been easier to swap the flange on your tailshaft or re-drill the diff flange?

[Shadow]

if there's no up/down/side/side movement in the pinion flange, stop there, she'll be roit.

edit: would have been easier to swap the flange on your tailshaft or re-drill the diff flange?

Didnt have another flange for the tailshaft,

and the pinion seal was leaking anyway (pinion flange has major groove from where the seal was running).

And i dont think its possible to redrill the pinion flange or the tailshaft flange, theres no meat for bolt holes when you turn the tailshaft 45degrees etc.


Also,

I have another diff that could do with some bearings. Is this something i could do myself? My old man is a fitter (was) so has all the gear.

Time is not an issue as its a spare. Would it be worthwhile attempting it myself? Diff places want about $600 including a gear lap, and virtually not interested in just eplacing the bearings, but I am 90% sure the gears are fine.

[dumbdunce]

if there's no up/down/side/side movement in the pinion flange, stop there, she'll be roit.

edit: would have been easier to swap the flange on your tailshaft or re-drill the diff flange?

Didnt have another flange for the tailshaft,

and the pinion seal was leaking anyway (pinion flange has major groove from where the seal was running).

And i dont think its possible to redrill the pinion flange or the tailshaft flange, theres no meat for bolt holes when you turn the tailshaft 45degrees etc.


Also,

I have another diff that could do with some bearings. Is this something i could do myself? My old man is a fitter (was) so has all the gear.

Time is not an issue as its a spare. Would it be worthwhile attempting it myself? Diff places want about $600 including a gear lap, and virtually not interested in just eplacing the bearings, but I am 90% sure the gears are fine.

yes if the gears are good then they SHOULD set up with the same pinion spacer as is already installed. if they are a bit worn you might need to exceed the backlash specification slightly to get a good pattern. you need a press and appropriate mandrels, a dial gauge, a tool to hold the pinion flange while you torque up the nut, and a new collapsible spacer unless it's a solid spacer type.

of course if yup have a shot at it and it doesn't set up, you're still in it for the $600 to the shop; they are probably quoting that high on the off chance that the gears have been run misaligned and will not set up and therefore require lapping.

[Shadow]

I have the press,
can make the mandrels,
have the dial guage,
can make a tool to hold the pinion flange
Need a torque meter.


How do you know if its a solid spacer type. I believe its a pre-83 diff, with the older flange and seal.

[dumbdunce]

I have the press,
can make the mandrels,
have the dial guage,
can make a tool to hold the pinion flange
Need a torque meter.


How do you know if its a solid spacer type. I believe its a pre-83 diff, with the older flange and seal.

buy a cheap spring scale (fishing tackle shop) and some string, a lot cheaper and just as accurate as a torque wrench.

you'll know when you get it apart which type it is.

[Shadow]

ok so i got the bearings, $130 for koyo

Where do i get the shims, should i go to toyota? or would a bearing place have them.

got the bearings from don kyatt.

[dumbdunce]

pinion height spacer you can recycle the one you have, its only if you are changing gears or housings you might need a new spacer.

collapsible spacer can get from toyota, surprised kyatts didn't have it? try bearing shops. I have a collection from old diffs so I usually recycle them, just find one that is long enough, or they can also be shimmed, the solid spacers from 60 series diffs work a treat.


tip: old lipstick makes an awesome contact pattern marking compound..

[Shadow]

pinion height spacer you can recycle the one you have, its only if you are changing gears or housings you might need a new spacer.

collapsible spacer can get from toyota, surprised kyatts didn't have it? try bearing shops. I have a collection from old diffs so I usually recycle them, just find one that is long enough, or they can also be shimmed, the solid spacers from 60 series diffs work a treat.


tip: old lipstick makes an awesome contact pattern marking compound..

wow, will try the lipstick, was going to search for the red lead they talk about.

This diff is a solid spacer AFAIK.

It didnt have a spacer, the pinion shaft is just not machined down in that section, is that correct?

kyatts have the spacer, but they dont supply it in the kit as its a hit and miss as to wether its necessary.

[Shadow]

Whats the pinion height spacer, is that the depth of the pinion into the gear set?

The diff I disassembled had a shim under the outer race of the big bearing, and a shim behind the little pinion bearing.

I assume being a solid spacer, you move both shims to adjust the pinion height.

[Shadow]

I have the manual for both the solid spacer and crushable spacer.

THe one for the crushable spacer (post 84) says to put a shim between the large pinion bearing and the pinion gear to set the pinion position.

But on the 1980 manual, it doesnt actually specify where the spacer goes, but it looks like from the pictures it goes under the outer race of the large bearing. Which if you adjust here(add 0.30 shim), you need to remove 0.30 shim from between the solid spacer and the small pinion bearing or preload will be effected.

[dumbdunce]

ah sorry I looked at the topic and assumed we were taking about an 80 series diff.

I think the solid spacer diffs still have a spacer between the pinion head and the big bearing, but also use thin shims under the big bearing outer race to fine tune pinion height? been a while since I've done one, and they are a poo to set up. I have shim brass in a variety of thicknesses and just cut to suit when I need to, I don't do those diffs very often.

so yes you have to add from one and take away from tother.

[Shadow]

ah sorry I looked at the topic and assumed we were taking about an 80 series diff.

I think the solid spacer diffs still have a spacer between the pinion head and the big bearing, but also use thin shims under the big bearing outer race to fine tune pinion height? been a while since I've done one, and they are a poo to set up. I have shim brass in a variety of thicknesses and just cut to suit when I need to, I don't do those diffs very often.

so yes you have to add from one and take away from tother.

could i just use a crushable spacer instead?

seems like it would be a heck of alot easier.