Just wondering if i can use normal reduction gears in a 84 1ltr (with handbrake) transfer case with no 4wd light, or if i need to switch to a 1.3 case and if so are the mounting points the same? I realise flanges will be different.
If anyone in perth has a 1.3 case i have a 96 1ltr case with 4wd light to swap.
cheers mick
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1ltr reduction gears
Posts: 242
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:38 am
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:38 am
Location: stuck in a hole. not offroad, just deception bay
you can definately use a 1 litre 4WD light case for reduction gears as the case itself is the same as a 1.3 (just different size gears)
not sure about the non light case. although they run the same gears (same ratio) as a 1 litre with light the flange splines are a different size and I think the shaft sizes may also be different. you would need to pull it apart to know for sure.
not sure about the non light case. although they run the same gears (same ratio) as a 1 litre with light the flange splines are a different size and I think the shaft sizes may also be different. you would need to pull it apart to know for sure.
So every one litre case has the exact some gears no matter if they have a light or not? Wanting to do a RockLobster gear set up and have already bought a set of gears from an early 1L case with out the light and then i was told that they had different gearing and it wouldnt work?mrw82 wrote:you can definately use a 1 litre 4WD light case for reduction gears as the case itself is the same as a 1.3 (just different size gears)
not sure about the non light case. although they run the same gears (same ratio) as a 1 litre with light the flange splines are a different size and I think the shaft sizes may also be different. you would need to pull it apart to know for sure.
I'm going to throw a spanner in the works here.
I have a transfer case in the shed that came off a 1984 (or something) 1.0 trayback that is shift light but WILL NOT accept transfer gears.
I'll provide some context.
It appears that outside of NSW 1.0 sales stopped when the 1.3 was introduced, and that has always been my position.
Outside of NSW, it's been the case that 1.0 shift light cases would take gears and non-light cases wouldn't.
However, it appears that Ateco in NSW continued to sell the 1.0 trayback for some time after the 1.3 introduced.
These cars are quite different to a "regular" (pre-1984) 1.0.
They have 1.3 cabs and 1.3 chassis, except for engine mounts. They have 1.3 wiring, 1.3 transfer case mounts, disc front brakes, the 4WD light, but 1.0 diffs and a very strange transfer case.
It's a 1.0 geared case with a shift light, so it should take gears, but it has small splines and the ball-bearing supported intermediate shaft, so gears will not fit.
Just worth looking out for. I only found about about this because we have a clubmember has been buying up traybacks from southern NSW and I now own one.
I believe non-light and light 1,0 cases have the same gearing, but I don't believe you can build a rocklobster out of non-shift light gears. Might be wrong though.
Steve.
I have a transfer case in the shed that came off a 1984 (or something) 1.0 trayback that is shift light but WILL NOT accept transfer gears.
I'll provide some context.
It appears that outside of NSW 1.0 sales stopped when the 1.3 was introduced, and that has always been my position.
Outside of NSW, it's been the case that 1.0 shift light cases would take gears and non-light cases wouldn't.
However, it appears that Ateco in NSW continued to sell the 1.0 trayback for some time after the 1.3 introduced.
These cars are quite different to a "regular" (pre-1984) 1.0.
They have 1.3 cabs and 1.3 chassis, except for engine mounts. They have 1.3 wiring, 1.3 transfer case mounts, disc front brakes, the 4WD light, but 1.0 diffs and a very strange transfer case.
It's a 1.0 geared case with a shift light, so it should take gears, but it has small splines and the ball-bearing supported intermediate shaft, so gears will not fit.
Just worth looking out for. I only found about about this because we have a clubmember has been buying up traybacks from southern NSW and I now own one.
I believe non-light and light 1,0 cases have the same gearing, but I don't believe you can build a rocklobster out of non-shift light gears. Might be wrong though.
Steve.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
What is the difference between the gears? What would happen if you were to try? (other then waste money and time)Gwagensteve wrote:I believe non-light and light 1,0 cases have the same gearing, but I don't believe you can build a rocklobster out of non-shift light gears. Might be wrong though.
Steve.
Posts: 912
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 6:29 pm
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 6:29 pm
Location: {Sydney, Australia or Rio, Brazil Ride: Sierra JXi}
i remeber when a friend was teling me about his friend who had an 87 1l sierra andi was like, no.
Then i saw it, it was a lwb with a nt dash, somewhere since then i hae seen a 1l swb with nt dash but wasnt game to pop the hood to check the firewall
Then i saw it, it was a lwb with a nt dash, somewhere since then i hae seen a 1l swb with nt dash but wasnt game to pop the hood to check the firewall
-[b]Santos[/b][img]http://www.teamswift.net/images/smilies/icon_furious.gif[/img]
Suzuki, Jeep & Toyota Soft tops with welded seams for SALE (PM me)
Suzuki, Jeep & Toyota Soft tops with welded seams for SALE (PM me)
I think it would be a waste of money and time.Zook_Fan wrote: What is the difference between the gears? What would happen if you were to try? (other then waste money and time)
Pulling the two cases apart will tell you. The intermediate shaft gears are quite different in each case - making the hybrid won't be possible IMHO.
Could be wrong though
Steve.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
Posts: 242
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:38 am
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:38 am
Location: stuck in a hole. not offroad, just deception bay
your right steve. I have seen a similar thing myself. it was a 1 litre case with shift light but small splines. not sure what model it was out of but I thought that the front casing (part which houses the switch) had been changed. possibly be one of the NSW models your talking about.
and to top it off the flange bolts on the handbrake drum were 1.3 spacings!!!
and to top it off the flange bolts on the handbrake drum were 1.3 spacings!!!
any luck yet Zook_Fan be interested to know the outcome! Cheers Robb.Zook_Fan wrote:well i have the 1L gears out of the case and will pull the 1.3L transfer apart tomorrow to see what i come up with. will let you know!
Suzuki Sierra: half the size, half the weight, half the cost & twice the fun :lol: why would you drive anything else?
Frog Build up:
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/ftopic145665.php&highlight=frog
Frog Build up:
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/ftopic145665.php&highlight=frog
nah mate, i have gone head to head with a 1.3NT case and so far the score is:
Transfer: 1
Me: 0
lol, i cannot get the main nuts off the case, the 27mm ones that back onto the shafts. We tried a rattle gun, no luck. Tried a breaker bar, no luck we had nothing that we could hold the case still while we cracked the nuts. I was standing on it while someone else was trying to crack it, it through me off, broke my thongs and the nut still hadnt moved
. When you look at it the score is really
Transfer: 3
Me: 0
Going to try and borrow a snap on rattle gun this weekend and rip the bastard apart.
Transfer: 1
Me: 0
lol, i cannot get the main nuts off the case, the 27mm ones that back onto the shafts. We tried a rattle gun, no luck. Tried a breaker bar, no luck we had nothing that we could hold the case still while we cracked the nuts. I was standing on it while someone else was trying to crack it, it through me off, broke my thongs and the nut still hadnt moved
. When you look at it the score is really Transfer: 3
Me: 0
Going to try and borrow a snap on rattle gun this weekend and rip the bastard apart.
[quote="v840"]Do you ever think that if Hitler had targeted idiots instead of Jews, shit might have gone down a lot differently?[/quote]
Posts: 912
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 6:29 pm
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 6:29 pm
Location: {Sydney, Australia or Rio, Brazil Ride: Sierra JXi}
Levelled the score with the transferZook_Fan wrote:nah mate, i have gone head to head with a 1.3NT case and so far the score is:
Transfer: 1
Me: 0
lol, i cannot get the main nuts off the case, the 27mm ones that back onto the shafts. We tried a rattle gun, no luck. Tried a breaker bar, no luck we had nothing that we could hold the case still while we cracked the nuts. I was standing on it while someone else was trying to crack it, it through me off, broke my thongs and the nut still hadnt moved
Transfer: 3
Me: 0
Going to try and borrow a snap on rattle gun this weekend and rip the bastard apart.
. Not too sure if this is going to work. Will require more work than the later 1L transfers but it will still be a cheap exercise if it all works out.Some pics of the gears:
I know this is crap quality but it shows the gears lined up. The ones in or closest to the case are the 1.3L gears, further away are the 1L gears.
[quote="v840"]Do you ever think that if Hitler had targeted idiots instead of Jews, shit might have gone down a lot differently?[/quote]
Ok so I have figured out how I am going to approach this now:
For the Input Shaft:
Instead of just taking the bearings off one and pressing them onto the other gears, I am going to have to measure the outside diameter to match the transfer and the inside diameter to match the shaft and just order them through a local bearing supplier. Even though the spline count is different, I am going to source an old 1L flange, cut the bolt pattern off and weld a WT bolt pattern to the old flange.
For the Output Shaft:
This will be the same as a normal rockhopper, just press the old high output off and press the new output on.
For the Counter Gears:
Now this is the tricky bit and the part I need advice for. Now the pin that goes through the centre, that the bearings are on, is the same diameter for both of them. That makes it seem simple but I dont know which one to use? I know that the bigger gear from the 1L set needs to be welded to the small gear of the 1.3L set but which shaft should I use? The skinny one or the thick one, I have both of the shafts so that will not matter to much.
Also what is the correct procedure to cut and weld gears. I know that they have to be heat treated when going both ways but what is the method for the heat treating? Do i just heat it like crazy with a oxy and leave it to cool? What is the go? Cheers for any help.
For the Input Shaft:
Instead of just taking the bearings off one and pressing them onto the other gears, I am going to have to measure the outside diameter to match the transfer and the inside diameter to match the shaft and just order them through a local bearing supplier. Even though the spline count is different, I am going to source an old 1L flange, cut the bolt pattern off and weld a WT bolt pattern to the old flange.
For the Output Shaft:
This will be the same as a normal rockhopper, just press the old high output off and press the new output on.
For the Counter Gears:
Now this is the tricky bit and the part I need advice for. Now the pin that goes through the centre, that the bearings are on, is the same diameter for both of them. That makes it seem simple but I dont know which one to use? I know that the bigger gear from the 1L set needs to be welded to the small gear of the 1.3L set but which shaft should I use? The skinny one or the thick one, I have both of the shafts so that will not matter to much.
Also what is the correct procedure to cut and weld gears. I know that they have to be heat treated when going both ways but what is the method for the heat treating? Do i just heat it like crazy with a oxy and leave it to cool? What is the go? Cheers for any help.
[quote="v840"]Do you ever think that if Hitler had targeted idiots instead of Jews, shit might have gone down a lot differently?[/quote]
you will have to use whateva countergear suits the housing your going to use.Zook_Fan wrote:For the Counter Gears:
Now this is the tricky bit and the part I need advice for. Now the pin that goes through the centre, that the bearings are on, is the same diameter for both of them. That makes it seem simple but I dont know which one to use? I know that the bigger gear from the 1L set needs to be welded to the small gear of the 1.3L set but which shaft should I use? The skinny one or the thick one, I have both of the shafts so that will not matter to much.
but because there is not much difference in gear sizes in the gears your trying to use,
i think this is all a big waste of time. for the small outlay to get the proper opposite box to suit the rock lobster.
you will get a better outcome.
just a thought
michael
but i will get the exact same outcome. there is absolutely no difference between the counter gears between the 1L with switch and 1L without except for possible the shaft. They both have the same gear count though as far as I know. If anyone knows the gear counts for the 1L with switch I would love to double check but visually they seem to look the same.
That is what I believe anyway, either way it will make some difference as the car is running standard gears any reduction for around $30 is good enough for me.
The only thing that is stopping me is the welding of the gears.
That is what I believe anyway, either way it will make some difference as the car is running standard gears any reduction for around $30 is good enough for me.
The only thing that is stopping me is the welding of the gears.
[quote="v840"]Do you ever think that if Hitler had targeted idiots instead of Jews, shit might have gone down a lot differently?[/quote]
gear teeth numbers for the 1L and the 1.3Zook_Fan wrote:but i will get the exact same outcome. there is absolutely no difference between the counter gears between the 1L with switch and 1L without except for possible the shaft. They both have the same gear count though as far as I know. If anyone knows the gear counts for the 1L with switch I would love to double check but visually they seem to look the same.
That is what I believe anyway, either way it will make some difference as the car is running standard gears any reduction for around $30 is good enough for me.
The only thing that is stopping me is the welding of the gears.
custom bar work, 4x4 parts, trailers, anything out of steel/alloy :D
anything's possible if you try hard enough, but I really can't see that intermediate shaft working.
Have you worked out what case you are going to use? I assume because of all the bearing/seal sizes, you're going to use the 1.0 case as the basis for the build.
If that's the case, you're going to need to do some clever machine work to get the 1.3 high range intermediate (idler) gear welded onto the 1.0 idler shaft, and before you do that, my guess is you're going to have to break the 1.0 output shaft apart to work out if the shaft and little needle roller bearing have the same specs between the 1.0 and the 1.3.
In relation to the idler gear, obviously you can't just cut and weld it like you could if you had a 1.0 switch case, so you're going to have to do something tricky.
I was thinking you could grind the 1.0 low range gear down to match the ID of the 1.3 low range gear and then press fit the 1.3 low range counter gear over it, then at least the weld is only holding everything in place and isn't critical for alignment. However, those gears aren't going to be cut on a lathe unless they're annealed, or you cut them in the hard state, meaning it will have to be done abrasively (think a grinder in a lathe)
After confirming the bearings/shafts on the output are the same, resolving the counter shaft is going to be the big issue.
best of luck, but man, that's a lot of stuffing around for something you can buy off the shelf.
Steve.
Have you worked out what case you are going to use? I assume because of all the bearing/seal sizes, you're going to use the 1.0 case as the basis for the build.
If that's the case, you're going to need to do some clever machine work to get the 1.3 high range intermediate (idler) gear welded onto the 1.0 idler shaft, and before you do that, my guess is you're going to have to break the 1.0 output shaft apart to work out if the shaft and little needle roller bearing have the same specs between the 1.0 and the 1.3.
In relation to the idler gear, obviously you can't just cut and weld it like you could if you had a 1.0 switch case, so you're going to have to do something tricky.
I was thinking you could grind the 1.0 low range gear down to match the ID of the 1.3 low range gear and then press fit the 1.3 low range counter gear over it, then at least the weld is only holding everything in place and isn't critical for alignment. However, those gears aren't going to be cut on a lathe unless they're annealed, or you cut them in the hard state, meaning it will have to be done abrasively (think a grinder in a lathe)
After confirming the bearings/shafts on the output are the same, resolving the counter shaft is going to be the big issue.
best of luck, but man, that's a lot of stuffing around for something you can buy off the shelf.
Steve.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
Thanks for that daisy, will check tooth count tomorrow. If they are not correct then yes I will abandon this project and possible just buy a set of gears.
Gwagentsteve - My plan was to use the 1.3L case. My reasons for this is that I actually have the case (only have the 1L gears not the case) and it is exactly the same as to what is already in the car. I think that I am either going to have to make or buy some custom seals for the 1L shaft in the 1.3L case.
When you refer to the high range intermediate shaft are you meaning the shaft that is still in the transfer case in my photo's? If that is what you mean I can see no reason why the bearings would differ because they are the exact same length and diameter shafts. The gears have the same thicknesses so there should be no problems there.
When annealing gears is this just for cutting? Can you weld gears if they havent been annealed?
Also when you say a "grinder in a lathe" what do you mean? Like use an abbrasive cutting tool? Would any other cutting tool I use just break?
Yes I know it is a lot of stuffing around, and I know you can buy it off the shelf, BUT when my time at home cost me nothing and a few tools shouldnt add up to the amount that gears are. So far this entire project has cost me $30. If I can pull it off for under $500 I will be extremely happy, especially if they last.
Gwagentsteve - My plan was to use the 1.3L case. My reasons for this is that I actually have the case (only have the 1L gears not the case) and it is exactly the same as to what is already in the car. I think that I am either going to have to make or buy some custom seals for the 1L shaft in the 1.3L case.
When you refer to the high range intermediate shaft are you meaning the shaft that is still in the transfer case in my photo's? If that is what you mean I can see no reason why the bearings would differ because they are the exact same length and diameter shafts. The gears have the same thicknesses so there should be no problems there.
When annealing gears is this just for cutting? Can you weld gears if they havent been annealed?
Also when you say a "grinder in a lathe" what do you mean? Like use an abbrasive cutting tool? Would any other cutting tool I use just break?
Yes I know it is a lot of stuffing around, and I know you can buy it off the shelf, BUT when my time at home cost me nothing and a few tools shouldnt add up to the amount that gears are. So far this entire project has cost me $30. If I can pull it off for under $500 I will be extremely happy, especially if they last.
[quote="v840"]Do you ever think that if Hitler had targeted idiots instead of Jews, shit might have gone down a lot differently?[/quote]
That's the gears that sit on the intermediate shaft. ( in the cas eof the 1.3 on the right) or the whole shebang in the case of the 1.0 set on the left.
The 1.3 case locks the intermediate shaft in place, and the non-shift light 1.0 spins it. That's a big difference and it's the reason why the rocklobster as described is much easier than what you are planning.
If you want to use the 1.3 litre case, I think you'll need to cut the 1.0 high range gear off it's shaft and fit it to the 1.3 gearset. That means the "worked" gear ( the one that's most likely to be out of alignment, soft, or whatever, will be the one you're driving on the road all day.
Can you weld stuff that's not been annealed? Probably. Can you machine it? It's not going to be easy, which is why I suggested grinding rather than annealing, cutting, and then re-heat treating. Yes, you'll tend to smash a machine tool trying to cut a hardened gear in a lathe.
Also, the annealing/heat treating process can tend to shrink things a bit. not ideal
Steve.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
Do it once, the right way and forget about it.
http://locktup4x4.com.au/suzuki-sierra- ... s-391.html
It is only ever going to be butchered and unreliable if you go down the cut and weld gear path.
It will cost you a bit more up front but you won't have to worry about your mods failing.
http://locktup4x4.com.au/suzuki-sierra- ... s-391.html
It is only ever going to be butchered and unreliable if you go down the cut and weld gear path.
It will cost you a bit more up front but you won't have to worry about your mods failing.
You'll need to bolt a grinder into the tool post of a lathe.
As for compensating for grinding wheel wear as you cut - best of luck with that. Specialised machine shops that deal with things like paper machine rollers etc do lots of abrasive work on lathes and they are able to compensate for tool (that is grinding wheel) wear as they cut.
Steve.
As for compensating for grinding wheel wear as you cut - best of luck with that. Specialised machine shops that deal with things like paper machine rollers etc do lots of abrasive work on lathes and they are able to compensate for tool (that is grinding wheel) wear as they cut.
Steve.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
A cylindrical grinder is the tool you will be looking for. A crankshaft grinder will work too.Gwagensteve wrote:You'll need to bolt a grinder into the tool post of a lathe.
As for compensating for grinding wheel wear as you cut - best of luck with that. Specialised machine shops that deal with things like paper machine rollers etc do lots of abrasive work on lathes and they are able to compensate for tool (that is grinding wheel) wear as they cut.
Steve.
True, but Zook_Fan is trying to do this job for less than the cost of transfer gears so DIY options are going to have to be employed.
Zook_fan, you do have a spare 1.3 case don't you? cutting up your operational 1.3 gearset to try an experiment (that's never, AFAIK been attempted before) seems quite, well, confident to me.
remember, part of the "safety" of the rocklobster is that the relationship between the 1.0 high range gears is unaffected by the cut and weld. You're going to be cutting and welding the 1.0 high range gear onto the 1.3 intermediate gearset. If it's not properly aligned, mismatched, or annealed by the welding process, you're going to have a big pile of junk, not just a transfer that's noisy in low range.
I'm sure you know and have considered this, but it's worth reiterating. I think the cost of getting that gear worked and welded professionally will be very close to a set of 4.9 transfer gears, especially once you add in a rebuild kit and sourcing whacky seals etc.
If this experiment gave you something cool like three speeds or a rear disconnect in the case or something, then it might be worth the effort, but the ONLY reason the rocklobster existed was as a solution before you could get transfer gears.
Zook_fan, you do have a spare 1.3 case don't you? cutting up your operational 1.3 gearset to try an experiment (that's never, AFAIK been attempted before) seems quite, well, confident to me.
remember, part of the "safety" of the rocklobster is that the relationship between the 1.0 high range gears is unaffected by the cut and weld. You're going to be cutting and welding the 1.0 high range gear onto the 1.3 intermediate gearset. If it's not properly aligned, mismatched, or annealed by the welding process, you're going to have a big pile of junk, not just a transfer that's noisy in low range.
I'm sure you know and have considered this, but it's worth reiterating. I think the cost of getting that gear worked and welded professionally will be very close to a set of 4.9 transfer gears, especially once you add in a rebuild kit and sourcing whacky seals etc.
If this experiment gave you something cool like three speeds or a rear disconnect in the case or something, then it might be worth the effort, but the ONLY reason the rocklobster existed was as a solution before you could get transfer gears.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
mkay, looks like it is a bust.... the gear count that I gathered from the old 1L case (preswitch) was:
Input gear:
35
Intermediate gear:
42
24
And the Output Gear:
57
62
Yes I have been tinkering with a spare 1.3L case. It was pulled off a wreck that I have since made the money back on and therefore the case didnt matter.
Again yes I realise that the Rocklobster was meant for pretransfer gears but it is a cheap option. Does anyone know how to figure out the ratio's if I decided to go ahead with this? If it is around 4.9 that is ok but I don't know if I should pursue this avenue.
Input gear:
35
Intermediate gear:
42
24
And the Output Gear:
57
62
Yes I have been tinkering with a spare 1.3L case. It was pulled off a wreck that I have since made the money back on and therefore the case didnt matter.
Again yes I realise that the Rocklobster was meant for pretransfer gears but it is a cheap option. Does anyone know how to figure out the ratio's if I decided to go ahead with this? If it is around 4.9 that is ok but I don't know if I should pursue this avenue.
[quote="v840"]Do you ever think that if Hitler had targeted idiots instead of Jews, shit might have gone down a lot differently?[/quote]
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