Auto locker review.

[88pajero]

Mud isnt a problem, i was driving hassle free through mud it was clay that clagged the tyres that brough me to a halt. (no traction to move at all)

The patrol cheated lol, he saw how slippery it was and what issues I had so we deflated his tyres and found the best path to take before he went up. If I chose the same path he took without the 40psi I was running when I tried the cruiser would have p'd it in.

Just quietly, that patrol is the reason I locked the cruiser lol, the cruiser was sick of being out done by the patrol

But I still stand by my previous statement, if all my wheeling was in steep claggy clay I would go the manual locker.

I better add too, the very next hill the unlocked patrol had the same thing happen to it as I had, once the clay turned the tyres into slicks it was a slow sideways slide down the hill.

[DEZ]

gday guys

I have one question, im considering getting a 4wd systems lokka for front of the gq. Now my mate reckons that if you have the opposite wheel in the air and you stop, the locker will NOT provide traction the the spinning wheel. Is this correct? he tells me its basicly another lsd?

dont want to buy one when this is what i dont want to happen

cheers dez

[joeblow]

gday guys

I have one question, im considering getting a 4wd systems lokka for front of the gq. Now my mate reckons that if you have the opposite wheel in the air and you stop, the locker will NOT provide traction the the spinning wheel. Is this correct? he tells me its basicly another lsd?

dont want to buy one when this is what i dont want to happen

cheers dez

no....you're mate is wrong. it will work, it may clunk and bang, but it will work. as soon as power is applied the cross-shafts will engage to two halves.

[unr33l]

x2 except for the clunk and bang. i can't hear mine make any noise from inside the cab, but have been told it clicks as it unlocks when i make sharp turns.

[DR Frankenstine]

X3 it will send all the drive to the wheel on the ground. The wheel in the air will also spin forwards at the same rate as the one on the ground.

[coxy321]

x2 except for the clunk and bang. i can't hear mine make any noise from inside the cab, but have been told it clicks as it unlocks when i make sharp turns.

Mines the same. I haven't heard it, but i've been told it clicks a little bit. Nothing nasty though.

[88pajero]

x2 except for the clunk and bang. i can't hear mine make any noise from inside the cab, but have been told it clicks as it unlocks when i make sharp turns.

Mines the same. I haven't heard it, but i've been told it clicks a little bit. Nothing nasty though.

same here, its dead quiet from inside the car and only just noticable from outside it.

[88pajero]

I dropped into a muddy area yesterday to get a quick bit of footage of the locker in mud.

The first vid is going through a slippery rutted section, as you will see the locker caused no issues.

http://s123.photobucket.com/albums/o290 ... CF3101.flv

The second vid is a small rutted hill which was as slippery as hell but you will see that the locked front end stayed on the raise between rutts where I wanted it to be without slipping in even though the back end slid a bit.

http://s123.photobucket.com/albums/o290 ... CF3102.flv

And the third vid, allthough it looks like nothing shows how on a darn skatey surface I was able to turn sharp without understeer. It did skip a bit as I first started to turn right so like I have mentioned many time before all I did was touch the brakes a tad and it unlocked and allowed me to turn without a problem. Look at the tread marks being left behing as I pull up, it was slippery!

http://s123.photobucket.com/albums/o290 ... CF3104.flv

Here is a closer look at those ruts from the first video.



On the way home I went back through those ruts and decided to try turning from one set of rutts to another thinking I had no chance but much to my suprise I did it with ease. Unfortunately I didnt get any footage of that but I will go back there soon, get footage of it and post it up for viewing!

Also keep in mind, if I was to put the pedal to the metal I would definately skate around uncontrolled but so would an unlocked vehicle in the same spot!

[Wambat]

X3 it will send all the drive to the wheel on the ground. The wheel in the air will also spin forwards at the same rate as the one on the ground.

i am not saying your wrong, as this is what i want to happen, but i have read other thing(there i way to much info that may or may not be correct about auto lockers) that say with the auto lockers when you lift a wheel, that they can over spin(spin faster than the one on the ground) but cant not turn at all.

i hope that its not the case as i want auto lockers front and rear, can you or any one else clear this up??

[coxy321]

i have read other thing(there i way to much info that may or may not be correct about auto lockers) that say with the auto lockers when you lift a wheel, that they can over spin(spin faster than the one on the ground) but cant not turn at all.

Could you elaborate on that a bit? (ie. what have you read?)

[danssurf82]

get yourself a welder and fill it with weld constantly locked, a hell of a lot cheaper and a hell of alot more predictable!!! it wont cut in and out like a 'lock wrong'

[vk2icj]

I explained this earlier in the thread but someone tried to correct me. Some models are different and are only limited slips (IE No slip) but most of the "Auto Lockers" never ever unlock. As long as there is power to the prop shaft the tyres will both turn at the same speed. However by design either tyre can turn faster. I think I'm reading your post right and if so you are correct. If there is power to the prop shaft then neither tyre can sit still and not turn be it in the air or on the ground. The ratcheting someone explained earlier is simply the outside tyre in a turn being allowed to turn faster not the inside one being allowed to slip and is how they are designed (good or bad I'll not debate)

i have read other thing(there i way to much info that may or may not be correct about auto lockers) that say with the auto lockers when you lift a wheel, that they can over spin(spin faster than the one on the ground) but cant not turn at all.

Could you elaborate on that a bit? (ie. what have you read?)

[vk2icj]

I explained this earlier in the thread but someone tried to correct me. Some models are different and are only limited slips (IE No slip) but most of the "Auto Lockers" never ever unlock. As long as there is power to the prop shaft the tyres will both turn at the same speed. However by design either tyre can turn faster. I think I'm reading your post right and if so you are correct. If there is power to the prop shaft then neither tyre can sit still and not turn be it in the air or on the ground. The ratcheting someone explained earlier is simply the outside tyre in a turn being allowed to turn faster not the inside one being allowed to slip and is how they are designed (good or bad I'll not debate)

i have read other thing(there i way to much info that may or may not be correct about auto lockers) that say with the auto lockers when you lift a wheel, that they can over spin(spin faster than the one on the ground) but cant not turn at all.

Could you elaborate on that a bit? (ie. what have you read?)

[danssurf82]

doesnt a lockwrong lock when the pins engage? and when they lock they love to snap axels and cv's... so there4 one cannot spin faster than another, this must mean its stuffed and is failing.

[coxy321]

doesnt a lockwrong lock when the pins engage? and when they lock they love to snap axels and cv's... so there4 one cannot spin faster than another, this must mean its stuffed and is failing.

Unless you've got something contructive to add to a good thread - bugger off.

[DR Frankenstine]

doesnt a lockwrong lock when the pins engage? and when they lock they love to snap axels and cv's... so there4 one cannot spin faster than another, this must mean its stuffed and is failing.

Im sure you people can't read. A Lockrite is allways locked!!! On cornering under a coast or no applied torque the outside wheel is allowed to unlock and spin faster than the inside wheel. They don't harshly lock up. The reason people snap axles and cv's is they cant drive. They power off slippery surfaces onto hard surfaces and having no cross axle slip to take up the extra grip the axle or cv breaks..

[diby_2000]

X3 it will send all the drive to the wheel on the ground. The wheel in the air will also spin forwards at the same rate as the one on the ground.

i am not saying your wrong, as this is what i want to happen, but i have read other thing(there i way to much info that may or may not be correct about auto lockers) that say with the auto lockers when you lift a wheel, that they can over spin(spin faster than the one on the ground) but cant not turn at all.

i hope that its not the case as i want auto lockers front and rear, can you or any one else clear this up??

Maybe you are thinking of a torsen (sp) LSD. A good LSD but still a LSD not a locker (or unlocker).
They need some torque to the wheel with least grip to turn the wheel with most grip. This style diff is where you hear pepole saying they accelerate whilst using the brakes to get moving with a wheel in the air.

[SLASH]

Dr Frank & vk spot on. They are always locked until the locker detects one wheel spining faster than the other, thats what the clicking sound is. Usually when cornering. If you plant it mid corner then it will lock & thats when you will hear a clunk. I had one in the rear of my old truck & once i got used to driving with it in i didnt even know it was there. Cheers Loz.

[88pajero]

doesnt a lockwrong lock when the pins engage? and when they lock they love to snap axels and cv's... so there4 one cannot spin faster than another, this must mean its stuffed and is failing.

Im sure you people can't read. A Lockrite is allways locked!!! On cornering under a coast or no applied torque the outside wheel is allowed to unlock and spin faster than the inside wheel. They don't harshly lock up. The reason people snap axles and cv's is they cant drive. They power off slippery surfaces onto hard surfaces and having no cross axle slip to take up the extra grip the axle or cv breaks..

Spot on, all though it is the inside wheel that unlocks, but all the same spot on!

vk, im not 100% sure what you are trying to say but when you turn and the locker is "ratcheting" the dog teeth have disengaged at the diff centre and there for the axle that is ratcheting on has no drive what so ever going to it, but as soon as more power is applied or you straighten the wheels out the dog teeth engage again making both axles locked again, which is where they stay untill a corner is taken again. So yes they are permantely locked but when a turn is needed the dog teeth are able to skip over each other on the inside wheel allowing no drive to one wheel so you do not constantly understeer.

Some people seem to get confused by this and think that when you get a wheel in the air you will get no drive to the wheel on the ground or vice versa. This is incorrect, when you are driving with a wheel in the air clearly there will be constant torque going to the diff so it does stay locked up! I have had the wheel in the air, stopped to look for the next best path, turned the wheels and taken off again with both wheels remaining locked and spinning at the same rotation.
If for some reason the locker detects that the wheel in the air is travelling at a lower speed than the one on the ground the wheel that is airborn might ratchet (allthough I havent seen this yet) but only untill it hits the deck again and then it will be locked just as it was when it left the ground. The wheel that is on the ground will ALWAYS have drive going to it!


I will also get footage of this asap to back my experience up with evidence!

[88pajero]

doesnt a lockwrong lock when the pins engage? and when they lock they love to snap axels and cv's... so there4 one cannot spin faster than another, this must mean its stuffed and is failing.

Clearly you have no experience at all with an auto locker. The "pins" you are on about, these would be the sheer pins that hold the springs in place on the centre which acts like a clutch to allow the dog teeth to disengage. As this thread has said from word go, an auto locker is permantly locked it is only when cornering that the dog teeth are able to move apart from each other, only enough movement for one side to unlock at a time and this only happens when one wheel is moving at a slower rotation than the other and there is no torque been applied.

So no, the pins are always in the same place, they just allow the dog teeth to slide a little on them to disengage from each other. Yes one wheel can spin faster than another when the teeth disengage and when this happens it means that your locker is working perfectly and has been set up right!

I also said right back at the start that if you have a lead foot or no patients then an auto locker wont be for you because you will break things, but been heavy footed will lead to broken things locked or not!

[Wambat]

sorry i have a habit of not being clear when trying to explain something i don't understand myself.

what i read was one of the threads on here about auto lockers, it was a long one, with a lot of well written information, but being that i read it more than a few months ago i would have a clue what thread it was, and i think i could go through search until the cows come home trying to find it and be unsuccessful.

basically what i said in my other post is the jist of what i was reading, and so far everything you guys have said is the same too, the only part i read in the other thread was like i explained before,

if your driving and one wheel leaves the ground, it would still have drive(as would the one on the ground) but the one in the air would(or could) over spin or spin faster than the one on the ground, but not slower.

thats only one point made in that thread but as ive said this is pretty much the jist of my question/point.

im not saying it does do this or it does not, i dont have the experience to know, hence why it is more of a question than a point.

but its the main point i want to know about as i want auto lockers, but i dont want to lift a tyre, have it gain a lot of speed, and then come down stop suddenly and snap things.

also it was never (that i can remnber) mentioned if when it over spun, that it spun so much faster or anything, so what i am talking about could theoretically mean nothing, 1 or 2 rpm at the wheels wouldn't make a lot of difference, but 50 might,

i will try to have a search and find the thread i am on about, i think it had something to do with auto lockers and ifs trucks.

sorry for not being all that well written before.

Al

[88pajero]

Maybe if you have a run up at something and a wheel lifts it might maintain the momentum it had with the run up if the axle disengages. But there is no way it could spin at a higher speed due to torque from the running gear without the wheel on the ground been unlocked, which doesnt happen. I havent heard of this before, ill have to keep a close eye out on it for you to see if I notice anything.
-Rick.

[coxy321]

Maybe if you have a run up at something and a wheel lifts it might maintain the momentum it had with the run up if the axle disengages. But there is no way it could spin at a higher speed due to torque from the running gear without the wheel on the ground been unlocked, which doesnt happen.

Thats the only way i can see it happening. You'd have to be going pretty hard to have enough wheelspin (on both sides) for it to be still spinning once its up and in the air.

[DEZ]

well good to see i opened up a great debate on the wheel in the air topic. I think i can say question answered! = my mate wrong

great thread guys thanx

[Struth]

I think what people are trying to explain is this in laymans terms,

The locker provides equal drive to both sides but still allows one wheel to turn faster than the diff is driving it, but never slower than the diff is driving it.

This is how lockers allow the vehicle to turn corners in much the same way an open diff does, but they do not allow torque to be transferred to one axle only the way an open diff does.

Gee I thought that might sound simple, I guess they are hard to explain to people so they understand.

I have only had airlockers, because that's the way I came across various locker bargains, but a lot of people I know run autos and they work as well as if not better than a selectable locker offroad, not trying to open a can of worms just my observations.

If I was buying new I would go for auto lockers.

Cheers

[vk2icj]

Hi All

Here is a clip from LOkka
http://www.4wdsystems.com.au/index.php?id=29

I would argue their use of the term "unlocking" (point 3b below) as to me an unlocked wheel could be held stationary whilst the other is powered such as when we are talking an open diff or even limited slip. Yes it is not "locked" equal to the other wheel at all times but it cannot turn slower or not at all when power is being delivered to the diff. Both wheels have to at least turn the speed of the diff being driven by the prop shaft. So to me neither wheel is ever unlocked. Both wheels get equal power all the time AND are allowed to spin faster if in a turn. I think most of us are saying the same thing. I certainly don't like the term "unlocking" because if you were to go around a corner and be in some slippery stuff the outside wheel which by their terms unlocks could not stay stationary it will have power. Look at point 4 below. Like I said earlier the locker changes which wheel on bitumen when turning gets it's power as opposed to an open diff. This is why steering feels different after the locker has been installed. Maybe different models of lockers work differently and I'd be happy to see these because I want to install one myself fairly soon and want to have all the facts first. I'm open to anyone else wanting to post something different and links to where they get their information. The site I've listed above and clipped below supports all I've said so far for this particular model.

Cheers

Chris






Open Differentials and Limited Slip Differentials (LSD's) are designed to distribute enqine torque proportionately to the wheels, allowing the wheels to travel at different rotational speeds when cornering on hard road surfaces or travelling over very uneven ground.

When turning on a hard surface, "open" and LSD differentials use the outside wheel to drive the vehicle, while the inside wheel is allowed to "differentiate" or travel a shorter distance around the turn. The very nature of their design however is detrimental in relation to their ability to deliver equal torque to both wheels, hence traction and 4WD off road ability is severely handicapped.

LOKKA will perform the same as open and LSD differentials when the vehicle is driven under equal traction conditions, ie on road. The LOKKA allows the wheels to "differentiate" around the turn, but reverses the operation in that it transfers the engine torque (hence drive) to the inside wheel, rather than the outside wheel.



In comparison to other lockers LOKKA uses an amazingly simple method to .lock the axles for maximum traction and to unlock them for full differential action. ie as required when cornering or driving on hard surfaces.

The actual principal of it's operation while easily demonstrated is difficult to explain in writing - but is as follows.

1. LOKKA has only 4 main parts - a pair of Cam and Axle (side) gears for each axle, there are some springs and pins, some have spacers.

2. LOKKA is normally in a fully locked state and only allows differential action by unlocking the unit when the ground driven force acting on a wheel (either during turning or when negotiating obstacles) forces that wheel to turn faster than the other driven wheel.
ie a turning vehicle's wheels actually travel two different paths with the inside wheel turning in one circle while the outside wheel travels in a larger circle, and therefore faster.

3. LOKKA makes use of two distinctly different sets of opposing forces that exist due to its design - one to dynamically couple the gears when engine torque is applied and the other to uncouple the gears when one wheel overruns.

3a. The locking force is applied by the action of the pinion cross shaft acting on a uniquely designed and shaped cam - the more torque that is applied the harder the unit locks.

3b. The unlocking action occurs due to the ramping effect between the low profile ramped teeth which force the cam away from the axle (side gear) eg when an outside wheel turns faster than than an inside wheel when cornering. Power continues to be applied to the inside axle. As the turn is completed and the wheels again rotate at the same speed, the outside lock re-engages.

4. It should be understood that only when there is an external force being applied to a wheel to make it turn faster than the rest of the drive train will LOKKA allow one wheel to differentiate. Slippery surfaces where one wheel would normally break traction in an open diff cause LOKKA to stay locked - even with one or both wheels in the air, LOKKA will remain locked.

[88pajero]

I found a pic to help illustrate things a little. My very dodgy red lines represent where the axles would come to on the side gears. The right side of he pic is what happens when turning, the dog teeth move apart from each other literally disengageing that axle from the centre all together so that axle has no drive at all. But when the locker is installed (properly) the teeth have just enough room to get past each other and the teeth ratchet untill torque is applied or the wheels straighten out again when it will return to locked like the left side of the pic.


The reason the steering feels funny is because when it is locked the tyres skip when turning and the steering constanly wants to return to centre. I have found you can overcome this by coasting when taking corners and when turning tight under genlte excelleration and it hasnt disengaged you can ride the brakes a little and it seems to help the locker realise its in a turn and one of the wheel unlocks, ( a trick I learnt from another thread here) but if power is reapplied during that turn both wheels will lock again.

[bad_religion_au]

Spot on, all though it is the inside wheel that unlocks, but all the same spot on!

vk, im not 100% sure what you are trying to say but when you turn and the locker is "ratcheting" the dog teeth have disengaged at the diff centre and there for the axle that is ratcheting on has no drive what so ever going to it, but as soon as more power is applied or you straighten the wheels out the dog teeth engage again making both axles locked again, which is where they stay untill a corner is taken again. So yes they are permantely locked but when a turn is needed the dog teeth are able to skip over each other on the inside wheel allowing no drive to one wheel so you do not constantly understeer.

i'm sorry, but the above is wrong.

it is the outside wheel that "unlocks" or spins faster than the other axle. the teeth ramp over each other when the torque applied from the ground (through the wheel and axle) overcomes the torque applied from the prop shaft. neither wheel is able to turn slower than the speed the ring gear is getting driven by the pinion.

[Wambat]

Maybe if you have a run up at something and a wheel lifts it might maintain the momentum it had with the run up if the axle disengages. But there is no way it could spin at a higher speed due to torque from the running gear without the wheel on the ground been unlocked, which doesnt happen. I havent heard of this before, ill have to keep a close eye out on it for you to see if I notice anything.
-Rick.

thanks mate, thats pretty much what i thought, but like i said, haven read nearly all the threads i see about air lockers and auto lockers, the amount of information (quite a bit would seam to be incorrect too) has left me more confused than when i first started reading the threads.

any ways, i still will be going autos ive decided.

[88pajero]

Spot on, all though it is the inside wheel that unlocks, but all the same spot on!

vk, im not 100% sure what you are trying to say but when you turn and the locker is "ratcheting" the dog teeth have disengaged at the diff centre and there for the axle that is ratcheting on has no drive what so ever going to it, but as soon as more power is applied or you straighten the wheels out the dog teeth engage again making both axles locked again, which is where they stay untill a corner is taken again. So yes they are permantely locked but when a turn is needed the dog teeth are able to skip over each other on the inside wheel allowing no drive to one wheel so you do not constantly understeer.

i'm sorry, but the above is wrong.

it is the outside wheel that "unlocks" or spins faster than the other axle. the teeth ramp over each other when the torque applied from the ground (through the wheel and axle) overcomes the torque applied from the prop shaft. neither wheel is able to turn slower than the speed the ring gear is getting driven by the pinion.

That is what I thought, but before I put that post up I had a quick glance at the manual that came with the locker and it said that its the inside wheel that "unlocks" so thats why I wrote it that way, perhaps I miss read it, because it makes more sence the way you say. Ill check it again over the weekend. But the important thing is at least one wheel ramps over so turning is possible