Fully engineered 80 series and i'm still getting fined?

[mrgrumpysleeps]

i'm not going to get into an arguement, i'm just after the written law instead of going on hear say, or just because the cop thinks he can. after that i'll get legal advice.

Cheers!

[toaddog]

Here is the relevant regulation.

http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGIS ... VSSR99.pdf



I wish I could see you plonking yourself down in front of someone at transport with a recorder and trying to get anything out of them.

Grmpy the below is not directed specifically at you


Chimp although they say there is uniform traffic laws across the country we both know there is differences across borders.

On that basis if a vehicle compliant in one state is taken to another state and due to its tyres, body lift or whatever it is defective. Should the police in that state, not take action?

[-Scott-]

On that basis if a vehicle compliant in one state is taken to another state and due to its tyres, body lift or whatever it is defective. Should the police in that state, not take action?

If it would be considered defective in its home state then that would be appropriate. If it isn't defective in its home state, why should it be defective in the host state?

My 4wd is not able to be registered in Queensland, due to the size of the tyres. They simply refuse to consider registering it. But I'm not asking them to.

In South Australia, an authorised Automotive Engineer has examined the vehicle, tested it and concluded that it complies with the intent of the Australian Design Rules and is safe to be driven on public roads.

If my vehicle is considered to comply with Australian Design Rules, is legally registered and 100% roadworthy in South Australia how can Queensland decide it's not roadworthy? How can Queensland tell me it doesn't comply with Australian Design Rules? How would they know?

[toaddog]

Ok so QLD raises it drinking age to 20. You are 18 yrs old and come up here for a holiday. You are standing in a bar with a glass of piss (vb etc) in your hand. You get pinged. "But its not illegal where I come from" "too bad it is here" Thats what I am trying to get across

[Dirty]

Is this where the "Federal" truck rego comes in to protect the transport industry?

- David.

[V8Patrol]

a vehicle is legally registered in any Australian state it can be driven legally in any Australian state

Provided the vehicle is "compliant" within its state of registration.


I get this every year when on the charity bash...... My commodore is higly modded to handle the outback flogging it gets and is fully engineered and compliant within its state of registration (Vic).

This modified vehicle can NOT be restricted to only be driven within the confines of Victoria..... it can be driven in all other states.

I've been pulled over in S.A, N.T, NSW, & Qld and although given a hard time over the mods there is jack shyte they can do about it......it fully complies with the Vic registration requirements.


I have on only 1 occasion received a fine ( in S.A funnily enough) for the dark window tinting, told the officer "good luck with this", have never paid it and 3+ years later dont expect to ever hear about it again.


Provided the vehicle is "compliant" within its state of registration..... they cant do shyte




The biggest hurdle you'll come up against will be when you attempt to transfer the registration to another state, the 'engineering certificates' will NOT be valid, they are only valid for the state of the original registration, so you'll HAVE to get it all re-engineered for your state.

QLD does NOT accept other states engineering certificates
NSW does NOT accept other states engineering certificates
S.A does NOT accept other states engineering certificates
Vic does NOT accept other states engineering certificates
N.T does NOT accept other states engineering certificates
W.A does NOT accept other states engineering certificates
Tas........ who cares... no-one goes there anyway

About the only way around all the B/S is to fully import a vehicle and have it "complied" in QLD....... strangely enough QLD has the slackest laws when it comes to grey area imports..... & Victoria has the toughest !

yet..... All states accept compliancing from any other state


Its a Govt thing.... Guy Fawkes had the right idea

[Chucky]

QLD really needs a full overhaul of it's mod system and rules.
What STUPID government thinks that a vehicle that is fully roadworthy, safe and can legally be driven in one state, suddenly becomes a dangerous death machine and the only change made is the address on the rego paper.
It's a ridiculas system as it stands now.
Everyone keeps saying the new NCOP will make life better, yet no-one knows when it's going to be brought in or the full scope of it, and since it's only a NCOP QLD will only except what it wants to anyway.
Cant see it happening thou.
Capt Bligh cant even talk to the Federal labnour government to see if a Dam will get the go ahead and wastes $700million on the project before the green light is given.

What chance has the vehicle mod laws got.

[rockcrawler31]

told the officer "good luck with this", have never paid it and 3+ years later dont expect to ever hear about it again.

Its a Govt thing.... Guy Fawkes had the right idea

We need a modern day Guy Fawkes.

Guy Fawkes, Guy Fawkes,
'Twas his intent
to blow up the King and Parliament.
Three score barrles of powder below
Poor old England to overthrow.
By God's providence he was catch'd
With dark cantern and burning match.
Holla boys, holla boys!
Let the bells ring!
Holla boys, holla boys!
God save the King.

But i dare say while it's easy enough to just "good luck with that" and ignore the fine, i'm guessing it would be a proper pain in the arse to front up at the court in the state which it would be heard, then "hopefully" have a judge that actually agreed with the legislature instead of just ignoring it.

I think it would be more likely that if you ignored the fine and it went to court as a result, the judge would probably uphold the fine in your absence to teach you a lesson regardless of its validity and then charge you court costs.

even if you turned up to court and won, you're still out of pocket the costs of getting to court and having it heard.

Why in this day and age we still have state governments with differing laws across the country boggles me. The advantages that it used to afford (i.e. being able to avoid liability for things or getting away with various things) are long gone as governments tied up loopholes that worked in favour of the average joe, and all that is left are its disadvantages as we see here. If we can have a nationwide taxation system, and a nationwide federal army, then why can't we have nationwide health, police, laws, judiciary and everything else. Save ourselves some money and phwuck off the parasitic leeches that are state government and politicians.

I worked in the National Health System in the UK it's an awesome system. It's run and funded federally, and there's no fuss with seeing a doctor or visiting a hospital in another part of the country to where you live. They have a nationally coherent roads, licencing and registration system.

[nastytroll]

From my last defect, I was told the police didn't need to know the legislation and when it was inspected it would be straightened out. I had mod plates for all the mods and all the copper said was "I don't think it looks right".

There have been others defected with leagal vehicles with mods that conform to the legislation, unless it goes for inspection and then possably court it will not get resolved.

I would argue the defect, and do use a voice recorder and get the person to state their name and position when recording. This is sometimes enough for it to be passed as they know it is an unlawful defect. You may also find that when asked to put their name to complaint that they will pass it around as know one will want to be responsable for an unjustified defect.

When getting defects and such, AFAIK, if you ask for the police persons details the cannot refuse it, badge number and location. I know they write their details on speeding fines but I cannot remember for decects.

I have had to contact the modifications dept. and had them call the inspections dept. and tell them that the modifications/std componants of the vehicle conform to the Vehicles Code.

[rockcrawler31]

When getting defects and such, AFAIK, if you ask for the police persons details the cannot refuse it, badge number and location.

And don't they just get shitty when you do ask them for it. Even if it is a legal requirement and you're totally in the right. It's almost as if "how dare you know the law and your rights"

Having said that i've also had a few coppers tell me to pull my head in and send me on my way

[-Scott-]

Ok so QLD raises it drinking age to 20. You are 18 yrs old and come up here for a holiday. You are standing in a bar with a glass of piss (vb etc) in your hand. You get pinged. "But its not illegal where I come from" "too bad it is here" Thats what I am trying to get across

I understand that argument. But it's easier for a 19 year old to NOT drink in a Qld pub than it is for me to change to a different set of tyres because I want to visit Queensland. A more valid analogy may be (using your scenario) a 19 year old from Adelaide has crossed the Simpson Desert (in a Qld compliant 4wd ), pulled up in Birdsville for the night, and will head down the Birdsville Track (back to SA) in the morning. He has a carton of beer in his car. Should he get pinged?

Vehicle Standards are about whether or not vehicles comply with Australian Design Rules. A defect notice is an allegation that the vehicle does not. South Australia has tested my vehicle and concluded it is compliant. Why are Australian Design Rules different in Queensland?

I understand that Queensland doesn't want to test for compliance for the modification I have (I think it sucks, but I understand that they don't want to administer such a system). But why does Queensland automatically declare my vehicle unsafe when it has been tested and accepted as being safe, according to Australian Design Rules.

Australian states have reciprocal rights agreements. Recognising interstate vehicle registration is one of these agreements. I do not believe that Queensland Legislation was written with the intent of ignoring that agreement.

[fester2au]

cops are farkheads end of story.

very constructive
let me guess they dont like you either and pick on you alot and call you names while poking fun at your shirt cause they dont make them for men?

I was thinking much the same, maybe comments and attitudes like that is why SOME cops are not very pleasant. got one for a next door neighbour and we were discussing this sort if thing the other day. Basically he said unless you are acting a tool the local guys don't care too mcuh about your car as long as it looks safe and not a ridiculous stand out. And they don't know all the mod rules and standards anyway. He also said that if you are pleasant to him he will just go about hsi business politely but if you start giving him the shits then he will give it back. Simple human nature really.


Oh and good luck getting straight answers out of DOT regardless of whether you have a tape recorder or not. Bloke who recently bought my import MG (1972) is getting the run around too. Went to register it the other day, I had almost rebuilt the entire car with the body about the onyl thing that wasn't new and it has all the correct imporrt papers. Local office would not register it cause it must have some other mod plates or papers with it. Didn't know what details and couldn't tell him but it must have some mod plate for something even though nothing had to be modified for Australia. Gave him a number to ring to get the info from the correct department and the guy on the end said the imported vehicle had to be registered within 12 months of importing and now that time had passed (imported 10 years ago by big business dealing in vehicle imports for on sale to restorers) the car could not legally be registered in Australia and had to be DESTROYED. Needless to say that conversion ended quickly and he is chased up elsewhere to find the correct info.

[nastytroll]

Ok so QLD raises it drinking age to 20. You are 18 yrs old and come up here for a holiday. You are standing in a bar with a glass of piss (vb etc) in your hand. You get pinged. "But its not illegal where I come from" "too bad it is here" Thats what I am trying to get across

I understand that argument. But it's easier for a 19 year old to NOT drink in a Qld pub than it is for me to change to a different set of tyres because I want to visit Queensland. A more valid analogy may be (using your scenario) a 19 year old from Adelaide has crossed the Simpson Desert (in a Qld compliant 4wd :P ), pulled up in Birdsville for the night, and will head down the Birdsville Track (back to SA) in the morning. He has a carton of beer in his car. Should he get pinged?

Vehicle Standards are about whether or not vehicles comply with Australian Design Rules. A defect notice is an allegation that the vehicle does not. South Australia has tested my vehicle and concluded it is compliant. Why are Australian Design Rules different in Queensland?

I understand that Queensland doesn't want to test for compliance for the modification I have (I think it sucks, but I understand that they don't want to administer such a system). But why does Queensland automatically declare my vehicle unsafe when it has been tested and accepted as being safe, according to Australian Design Rules.

Australian states have reciprocal rights agreements. Recognising interstate vehicle registration is one of these agreements. I do not believe that Queensland Legislation was written with the intent of ignoring that agreement.

The drinking coment is purchasing an item so is not relevent to the discussion as such, it would be equivelent to regoíng the 80s in qld.

We Qld folk should be able to get our vehicles tested interstate if Qld DOT don't want to set up their own system. A safe vehicle is a safe vehicle regardless of location. I have spoken with a person in Qld trans and she wants a national code too, too many variations between states.

[chimpboy]

Here is the relevant regulation.

http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGIS ... VSSR99.pdf

...

Chimp although they say there is uniform traffic laws across the country we both know there is differences across borders.

Thanks Toaddog, on the basis of that I would have to admit that it looks like you can be fined for driving a vehicle that's been modified in a way that makes it "defective" in Qld even if it's been approved elsewhere. I think this is a gap in the legislation but it does seem like that's how it reads.

On that basis if a vehicle compliant in one state is taken to another state and due to its tyres, body lift or whatever it is defective. Should the police in that state, not take action?

Weeeeell it kind of hinges on the word "defective", which is a pretty negative word for a vehicle that is properly engineered under NSW law. Yes it may be "defective" under Qld law but this could be purely technical eg a body lift that has just not been approved by Qld DOT because the ownder lives in NSW, but that is approved in NSW and is not unsafe or "defective" in the real world, just approved by an interstate govt.

So I am not saying the police should never take action, but on the other hand if there was complete mutual recognition of certification I don't think the sky would fall in or anything. I guess I would hope that common sense would restrict action to real safety issues.

But anyway dodgy as it seems to be to me, it may be that the fine is valid after all. The regulation is completely silent on the State of registration of the vehicle. I think this is pretty harsh on a lot of law-abiding interstate visitors (I feel the law should target bad behaviour, not technical breaches), but I guess it's not a high legislative priority for the government

[Struth]

My expectation would be that if a vehicle is legally registered in any Australian state it can be driven legally in any Australian state and that is that. I will be very surprised if anyone can turn up a law saying otherwise. I also would expect that the Qld CoP applies to vehicles registered in Qld and that is all. Again, I will be very surprised if anyone can turn up a law saying otherwise.

The grey areas (and they are not really grey, just more complicated) I can think of would be:

- where the vehicle is registered in the wrong state due to the residency of the owner
- where the vehicle is registered in another state but is registered illegally in the sense that it has been illegally modified

The idea that if you own a vehicle with a body lift that's legal and certified in Vic, then you need to write to Qld Transport and get an okay letter from them before you enter their State sounds so wrong that I find it very hard to believe.

With the fine, is it one where the process rolls on to the court system if you decline to pay?

I would think that while there are Australian legislations for most things, state legislations can over ride them. H**osexuality was once legal everywhere except Tasmania, that may be a bad example because I am not sure if federal legislation existed on the matter.

However state sentencing legoslations can and have been introduced that over ride federal legislations.

So it would not surprise me to find state vehicle legislations differing from federal ones.

These are also only standards, state standards differ from federal standards in many, many instances.

I can say that safety legislations and workcover legislations differ from state to state and people working with items effected by these generally tend to manufacture to the most stringent legislations to ensure Australia wide coverage (NSW) still though some items manufactured to NSW rules are not accepted australia wide.

It's a problem with state and federal governments and legislations.

Cheers

[bad_religion_au]

I was thinking much the same, maybe comments and attitudes like that is why SOME cops are not very pleasant. got one for a next door neighbour and we were discussing this sort if thing the other day. Basically he said unless you are acting a tool the local guys don't care too mcuh about your car as long as it looks safe and not a ridiculous stand out. And they don't know all the mod rules and standards anyway. He also said that if you are pleasant to him he will just go about hsi business politely but if you start giving him the shits then he will give it back. Simple human nature really.

that's as much a generalisation as "cops are fawkheads"...

I've had cops that pull me over, notice something undeniably defective, like cracked shock rubbers or a damaged numberplate, and tell me that "it might be a good idea to get them fixed" with a smile, and send me on my way. i've had others pull me over, accuse me of being unlicenced (because their computer said i was, just off my rego #). i politely say that i am licenced, and produce my licence for verification, and have them defect my car for not having window winder handles (car had factory power windows)....

good cops are good cops, bad cops shouldn't be in the job. to say it's completely attitude dependant is as B.S. as saying that all drs are competent, it's the attitude of the patient that results in malpractice.

[bogged]

a vehicle is legally registered in any Australian state it can be driven legally in any Australian state

Provided the vehicle is "compliant" within its state of registration.

Thats how I see it, but apparently its not..

[mrgrumpysleeps]

hopefully i have a break through, I have been given a name and number of an engineer within qld transports modification deparment and apperently he is a very decent bloke and very helpful. so i will call him first thing in the morning before i visit the idiots at qld transport in gladstone.

[Bingham]

Mate good on you for starting your homework. Do it once and do it properly. The best thing you can do is have all the evidence needed and can say to them with 120% confidence it as all approved and compliant. Once one copper or dot guys gets a handful of people rebuting and cars being sent over pits unnecessarily they will get the reputation as a twat and you effectively get your own back. a painful long road that most dont go down.

As suggested 9.5/10 of these unifromed people on such matters do not have the back up to know what they are on about. And uniformed people hate nothing more than being wrong and generally bullshit there way round it to the point that most almost feel like they are wrong even if not.

Again once a DOT guy told me new bigger springs in a patrol is not a lift

frustrating mate but go get them and yes it is bullshit.

just get your facts right then upeda... good luck

[fester2au]

I was thinking much the same, maybe comments and attitudes like that is why SOME cops are not very pleasant. got one for a next door neighbour and we were discussing this sort if thing the other day. Basically he said unless you are acting a tool the local guys don't care too mcuh about your car as long as it looks safe and not a ridiculous stand out. And they don't know all the mod rules and standards anyway. He also said that if you are pleasant to him he will just go about hsi business politely but if you start giving him the shits then he will give it back. Simple human nature really.

that's as much a generalisation as "cops are fawkheads"...

I've had cops that pull me over, notice something undeniably defective, like cracked shock rubbers or a damaged numberplate, and tell me that "it might be a good idea to get them fixed" with a smile, and send me on my way. i've had others pull me over, accuse me of being unlicenced (because their computer said i was, just off my rego #). i politely say that i am licenced, and produce my licence for verification, and have them defect my car for not having window winder handles (car had factory power windows)....

good cops are good cops, bad cops shouldn't be in the job. to say it's completely attitude dependant is as B.S. as saying that all drs are competent, it's the attitude of the patient that results in malpractice.

not quite my point but understand what you are saying. i was referring to the faxt that good cops are often fairly accomodating until you are a tool then all bets are off. bad cops are always bad cops, good cops turn supposedly bad in the presence of tools and why not under the circumstances.

Oh and to be clear I'm not suggesting you got pulled over and pinged cause you are a tool.

[brad-chevlux]

Here's a copy of the Queensland Code of Practise.

http://www.transport.qld.gov.au/resourc ... eb2004.pdf


My understanding is that quite alot of Government rules and regulations don't need to be specifically detailed in legislation. That was one of the Liberals arguments about the ETS, that most of the specific details would be regulations and not included in the legislation.

That is not the modifications COP. The modifications COP is not available online. You can buy it from QT for about $140

[mrgrumpysleeps]

I visited the transport inspectors ( TI's ) on monday, they greeted me by saying, Are you looking for the scrap yard because its down the road".

Turns out, they dont know shit, they think that because i work in queensland sometimes, that my truck must be registered in qld, regardless of me having a nsw drivers licence and a nsw residential address, the girls in the transport office just laughed at him.

so i achieved nothing.

I then called modifications head office in brisbane, they seem to be very helpful. I was told the only words i didnt want to hear, " Transport operations (road use management) act 1995 states that the vehicle must comply with the regulations of the state or territory that the vehicle is in).
I've been searching through the act and standards and all of the other papers looking for the exact wording but nothing in writing yet.

saying that, i have also found in writing:

Alternative ways of complying with Act
15.(1) In this Part—
“alternative compliance scheme” means a way of demonstrating that
vehicles operated by a person, or drivers of vehicles operated by a
person, achieve and maintain at least a performance standard other than
by directly complying with provisions of this Act.

and also found:

˙Approving alternative compliance schemes operating interstate
16.(1) In this section—
“interstate scheme” means an alternative compliance scheme approved
under a corresponding law to this Chapter for an operator.
(2) The chief executive may approve an interstate scheme for Queensland
only if satisfied it provides an effective way of demonstrating the operator’s
vehicles or drivers operating under it in Queensland achieve and maintain at least the performance standard to which it applies.

which i will discuss further tomorrow with the engineering department.

In the mean time she's parked up out the front of my house, and i'm sure if they found out where the truck is they'd defect it.

soooo, we'll see!!

[Guy]

Hmm sounds like the work of Sir Joh to me ..

[Chucky]

I visited the transport inspectors ( TI's ) on monday, they greeted me by saying, Are you looking for the scrap yard because its down the road".

Turns out, they dont know shit, they think that because i work in queensland sometimes, that my truck must be registered in qld, regardless of me having a nsw drivers licence and a nsw residential address, the girls in the transport office just laughed at him.

so i achieved nothing.

I then called modifications head office in brisbane, they seem to be very helpful. I was told the only words i didnt want to hear, " Transport operations (road use management) act 1995 states that the vehicle must comply with the regulations of the state or territory that the vehicle is in).
I've been searching through the act and standards and all of the other papers looking for the exact wording but nothing in writing yet.

saying that, i have also found in writing:

Alternative ways of complying with Act
15.(1) In this Part—
“alternative compliance scheme” means a way of demonstrating that
vehicles operated by a person, or drivers of vehicles operated by a
person, achieve and maintain at least a performance standard other than
by directly complying with provisions of this Act.

and also found:

˙Approving alternative compliance schemes operating interstate
16.(1) In this section—
“interstate scheme” means an alternative compliance scheme approved
under a corresponding law to this Chapter for an operator.
(2) The chief executive may approve an interstate scheme for Queensland
only if satisfied it provides an effective way of demonstrating the operator’s
vehicles or drivers operating under it in Queensland achieve and maintain at least the performance standard to which it applies.

which i will discuss further tomorrow with the engineering department.

In the mean time she's parked up out the front of my house, and i'm sure if they found out where the truck is they'd defect it.

soooo, we'll see!!

Like the way they greeted you.
So much for approaching in a clear and open mind and judging on it's own merrits.

[chpd80]

Sorry to here all the trouble your having mate
This all sounds like a great excuss for not moving back to Queensland, My wife and I are originally from there and occasionally think of moving back when its cold down here.
Then I think of the crap I would have to go through with the change of rego's etc.

Victoria is a great state