Scenic Rim Challenge Final 2009 Round and Dinner 5-6th Dec

[AngryElmo]

i can go for this. i think that it is not to bad, i see some ppl will not be happy but over all not to bad.

i recall there being said there are exception but penalities apply?

[Suspension Stuff]

i can go for this. i think that it is not to bad, i see some ppl will not be happy but over all not to bad.

i recall there being said there are exception but penalities apply?

Exceptions with what exactly.

[nastytroll]

extreme modified fit me.

I'm a little confused by the beadlocks though, if internals are allowed whats the difference running mechs? I have 315's and 37's but both are on mech locked wheels, so it would put me into the outlaw class?

So a stregthed wheel (ringed) with internals is different to a mech lock?

Your comp, your rules, just sounds a bit funny.

[AngryElmo]

extreme modified fit me.

I'm a little confused by the beadlocks though, if internals are allowed whats the difference running mechs? I have 315's and 37's but both are on mech locked wheels, so it would put me into the outlaw class?

So a stregthed wheel (ringed) with internals is different to a mech lock?

Your comp, your rules, just sounds a bit funny.

externals are not approved for road use and make it unroadworthy but i dont know y this would cause a problem

[AngryElmo]

i can go for this. i think that it is not to bad, i see some ppl will not be happy but over all not to bad.

i recall there being said there are exception but penalities apply?

First timers and those not wanting to damage there car in a higher class????

[nastytroll]

extreme modified fit me.

I'm a little confused by the beadlocks though, if internals are allowed whats the difference running mechs? I have 315's and 37's but both are on mech locked wheels, so it would put me into the outlaw class?

So a stregthed wheel (ringed) with internals is different to a mech lock?

Your comp, your rules, just sounds a bit funny.

externals are not approved for road use and make it unroadworthy but i dont know y this would cause a problem

]

33"+ tyres are not road leagal either, and as it is not an on road comp I still don't see the rellavance. Unless you have a manufactured rim with 2 valve stem holes the internals are still illeagal.

On function a bead locks a bead lock. A braced or ringed wheel is still illeagal too so I'm not seeing the point.

If its just one of those things, I will not compete. A road car against buggies because of a rim type is just silly.

[booflux]

extreme modified fit me.

I'm a little confused by the beadlocks though, if internals are allowed whats the difference running mechs? I have 315's and 37's but both are on mech locked wheels, so it would put me into the outlaw class?

So a stregthed wheel (ringed) with internals is different to a mech lock?

Your comp, your rules, just sounds a bit funny.

externals are not approved for road use and make it unroadworthy but i dont know y this would cause a problem

Nor are 35s

Personally I think as a whole it looks good a few things that I dont like, like the no beadlocks and 35s only in Extreme Modified. Mainly because it means if I bring the Lux I go straight to Outlaw but hey I am sure Ill survive

But as a whole I think they are ok, I also agree with Milo that saying an LSD and front locker is the same as 2 lockers is a bit of a stretch.

As said many times the vehicle that won this year wasnt even locked. Perhaps on the front locker issue maybe allow IFS rigs to have a rear lsd and front locker? I mean compared to a well set up solid axle with decent suspension and rear locker its pretty even imo. Also an unlocked IFS is at a real disadvantage. Personally Id love to see some mildly modded IFS rigs out there having a go.

I dont agree with comments like ban lockers and buy an aftermarket LSD, I think the main reason this comp works is it suits the weekend wheelers modified rig. And lets be honest who is going to buy an aftermarket LSD over a locker.

Either way I will bring my pos along next year and run where ever it fits in, as long as I come home with a smile I am happy.

[RV80]

I'm a little confused by the beadlocks though, if internals are allowed whats the difference running mechs?

So a stregthed wheel (ringed) with internals is different to a mech lock?

Your comp, your rules, just sounds a bit funny.

externals are not approved for road use and make it unroadworthy but i dont know y this would cause a problem

Internals are illegal as well as you have to modify the wheel. nastytroll it dosent sound funny its just stupid.

[STIKA]

i can go for this. i think that it is not to bad, i see some ppl will not be happy but over all not to bad.

i recall there being said there are exception but penalities apply?

First timers and those not wanting to damage there car in a higher class????

I am not sure where the idea of people competing in extreme modified and outlaw mind damaging/rolling there cars

[P@nda]

MODIFIED CLASS
What do people think about engine conversions, gearbox swaps, transfercase conversions, link changes(eg converting from independant to live axle?)

I believe classing should stick to tyre and lift size.
otherwise it starts getting too complicated. at the moment
the rules dnt need a drasticly changed, just need to be more
difined and class limits need to be policed. not just let a person
pick a class n let em go for it like it is at the moment.

Just my 2cents.

[oz cruisin]

From extreme modified up beadlocks weather it be internal or external should be aloud as a good percentage already run them,and lets face it there's not much left that's street legal by this stage.Your saying in the street mod class that its got to be stock mounting points for suspension but what about the people that have done a SAS on the front to get away from ifs.Come on Shane we're getting a bit serious with rules and regs i thought this was supposed to be a fun comp.If anybody is going to cheat by having anything that is not already stated in there class well hip hip he-ray to them.Eventually they will be found out and asked to change the mod or go up a class.IMO

[P@nda]

SUSPENSION STUFF CHALLENGE RULES UP FOR DISCUSSION BEFORE THEY ARE SET IN STONE

I am especially wanting more feedback on the bits in orange.

1.Your team shall have a name and you are competing for the name so you can change drivers or vehicles. (A personal name could be used as the team name)
2.A marshal may change the points system at the start of certain stages.
3.Cone penalties will vary between stages. 20 points is a good place to start.
4.No alcohol or drugs.
5.Please bring your recovery equipment.
6.Please make sure your vehicle has safe recovery points front and rear.
7.If a driver feels that the spectators are in a dangerous position he or she can stop with no penalty and ask the Marshall to move them back.
8.Gloves should be worn when rock stacking. (Not law at this point but encouraged) Put the rocks back when you finish the stage.
9.Bring your first aid kit.
10.Bring your fire extinguisher.
11.It is safer if the Navigator has a bicycle helmet in case he or she slips. (Not law but encouraged)
12.Don't touch the vehicle while it is moving.
13.You must not have anything loose in the vehicle unless you have a decent cargo barrier. You can dump your stuff at the beginning of a stage.
14.If you dominate a series you may be asked to step up to the next class or you can make yourself illegible to win the prizes for the next season and stay in the lower class.
15.You must have roof protection, either 3mm aluminium or 2mm steel sheet or high impact plastic roof panel, eg something to protect you and the Navigators.

16.Generally winches are only required for recoveries however please abide by the following rules at all times.
Call clear before you winch
Stop winching to reposition winch damper
Don't touch cable when cable or rope under tension
Always use gloves.
Don't stand in front of vehicle being winched.
Don't cross over cable.
Don't touch cable if vehicle is moving.


SCORING

1 Point penalty for stopping and continuing forward.
3 Point penalty for stopping, reversing, stopping then moving forward.
5 Point penalty for rock stacking per 20 seconds.(Put the rocks back when you finish the stage)
10 Point penalty for every cone that you hit.
20 Point penalty for breaking bunting (You may be asked to stop if you are taking an unfair advantage) (please fix what you break)
30 Point penalty for missing an obstacle if the Marshal allows you to continue.

It isn't a race, you will not be timed.
If you are stuck for more then 2 minutes the marshal will call it.

STOCK CLASS

Maximum 2” Lift – 10 point penalty for every inch above
No increase in tyre size off factory tyre placard (10 point penalty for running 31" tyres, 20 point penalty for 32" tyres unless your vehicle came out with that size tyre)
Must be registered
Factory (stock) drive line
No bead locks.
Tyres must be legal for road use (Radial Mud Terrains not bias)
Standard links can be made stronger or replaced with a stronger part.
Body Protection ok (Front/rear bars/sliders/roll cages etc...)
There is a points penalty for tyres (10 points per inch bigger in diameter but the penalty may increase throughout the season so the guys with bigger tyres don't win)
Frequent series winners may be asked to step up to “street modified” or forfeit prizes for a while

STREET MODIFIED

Maximum 4 inch lift (including body lifts)
Maximum 33 inch tyres (as stated on sidewall, any construction)
(If you run 35” tyres you must be unlocked and you will be asked to stop for excessive wheel spin. You will also receive a 10 point penalty for every inch over 33 in diameter)
Rear axle locker or LSD. (Open centres ok)
No front axle traction aids
No bead locks
Mod plated engine/gearbox/transfer case conversions
Must be registered
Axle changes/upgrades ok(ratios, axles LSD's, locker choice)
Body Protection allowed including Exo Cages (Ladder Racks)
Stock suspension mounting points (Can be strengthened)(no coil overs or air shocks)
Chassis dimensions must not be modified between your suspension points.
You can shorten your chassis at the extremities but your wheel base can't be modified. These mods must be done legally so consult an Engineer.
Frequent series winners may be asked to wheel with outlaw or to forfeit prizes for a while.

EXTREME MODIFIED

Any lift (2” body lifts)
Maximum 35 inch tyres (as stated on sidewall, any construction)
20 point penalty per inch higher. (Bigger tyres may outlawed or penalty increased if it isn't enough penalty)
Any traction aids.
Roll cages ok.
Window nets necessary.
Must be registered.
If you have the ability to raise or lower your suspension it must not be used while on a stage (eg. Hydraulic, air bags)
Engine/Axle/Gearbox/Transfer changes allowed
Internal bead locks ok. (No external beadlocks)
Shock absorber mounting points may be modified, (no coil overs, air shocks)
Chassis dimensions must not be modified between your suspension points.
You can shorten your chassis at the extremities but your wheel base can't be modified unless you have a mod plate.
Frequent series winners may be asked to wheel with the buggies or asked to forfeit some prizes for a while

OUTLAW

Chassis dimensions must be as standard between suspension mounts.
Any suspension but don't cut your chassis rails to fit it in.
Any sized tyres
Kill switch mounted within reach of driver and appropriately marked.
Must have harnesses, window nets and helmets and roll cage, internal or external.

BUGGIES / TRUGGIES

Cones may be moved slightly for frequent winners to keep the competition even from month to month.
Kill switch mounted within reach of driver and appropriately marked.
Must have harnesses, window nets and helmets and roll cage, internal or external.

That sounds pretty good Shane but with the standard tyre
size.. i believe you should be able to go one or two sizes above
standard. Not many people with a 2inch lift run a standard size tyre.

[Suspension Stuff]

extreme modified fit me.

I'm a little confused by the beadlocks though, if internals are allowed whats the difference running mechs? I have 315's and 37's but both are on mech locked wheels, so it would put me into the outlaw class?

So a stregthed wheel (ringed) with internals is different to a mech lock?

Your comp, your rules, just sounds a bit funny.

You can get the internal beadlocks legally because you can get the rims already with the hole. However no 35" tyres are legal at this stage anyway so lets go beadlocks allowed. I have edited it.

Shane

[Suspension Stuff]

I have also changed the stock tyre size to 31". It just makes it easier I think. It may disadvantage the larger vehicles but they are usually more capable anyway so it should hopefully even up the field.

Shane

[Suspension Stuff]

From extreme modified up beadlocks weather it be internal or external should be aloud as a good percentage already run them,and lets face it there's not much left that's street legal by this stage.Your saying in the street mod class that its got to be stock mounting points for suspension but what about the people that have done a SAS on the front to get away from ifs.Come on Shane we're getting a bit serious with rules and regs i thought this was supposed to be a fun comp.If anybody is going to cheat by having anything that is not already stated in there class well hip hip he-ray to them.Eventually they will be found out and asked to change the mod or go up a class.IMO

After listening to people politely complain all year, yes I do have to get serious with rules. When everyone knows where they stand we can all chat about the awesome driving and tracks instead of why some other vehicle may have been bending the rules.

As stated good point about the beadlocks.

Also agree that SAS should be allowed.

[Suspension Stuff]

extreme modified fit me.

I'm a little confused by the beadlocks though, if internals are allowed whats the difference running mechs? I have 315's and 37's but both are on mech locked wheels, so it would put me into the outlaw class?

So a stregthed wheel (ringed) with internals is different to a mech lock?

Your comp, your rules, just sounds a bit funny.

externals are not approved for road use and make it unroadworthy but i dont know y this would cause a problem

Nor are 35s

Personally I think as a whole it looks good a few things that I dont like, like the no beadlocks and 35s only in Extreme Modified. Mainly because it means if I bring the Lux I go straight to Outlaw but hey I am sure Ill survive

But as a whole I think they are ok, I also agree with Milo that saying an LSD and front locker is the same as 2 lockers is a bit of a stretch.

As said many times the vehicle that won this year wasnt even locked. Perhaps on the front locker issue maybe allow IFS rigs to have a rear lsd and front locker? I mean compared to a well set up solid axle with decent suspension and rear locker its pretty even imo. Also an unlocked IFS is at a real disadvantage. Personally Id love to see some mildly modded IFS rigs out there having a go.

I dont agree with comments like ban lockers and buy an aftermarket LSD, I think the main reason this comp works is it suits the weekend wheelers modified rig. And lets be honest who is going to buy an aftermarket LSD over a locker.

Either way I will bring my pos along next year and run where ever it fits in, as long as I come home with a smile I am happy.

You make a good point about independant vehicles being disadvantaged because the lack of front wheel travel. However I also think that the sigma which competed this year in modified class with a front locker and LSD rear was maybe more capable then the rear locked vehicles. Even so, it is a good point and am seriously considering letting the independant vehicles have a front locker but no rear locker. What do others think about this?

Shane

[AngryElmo]

would have to be a standard lsd and not shimmed up like some are, otherwise i see it as being to close to twin locked. but in saying that i thought that it was a fairly even field in mod this year.

[11_evl]

WTF. Your alowd to run front locker because your unfortunate enough to buy IFS car???
Does that mean patrols need to drive backwards.
You can't possibly rate specs to vehicle drivetrain layout.

No matter what condition, you can't say LSD is same as open. LSD doesn't work, fix it. Drive smarter.

31" in stock class?
That's about 5" gain to a Sierra, same diff clearance as a patrol on 36"
or a Hilux on 35"

[booflux]

WTF. Your alowd to run front locker because your unfortunate enough to buy IFS car???
Does that mean patrols need to drive backwards.
You can't possibly rate specs to vehicle drivetrain layout.

No matter what condition, you can't say LSD is same as open. LSD doesn't work, fix it. Drive smarter.

31" in stock class?
That's about 5" gain to a Sierra, same diff clearance as a patrol on 36"
or a Hilux on 35"

You also cant say a LSD is the same as a locker, shimmed up or not. If it was we wouldnt bother buying lockers.

My reasoning behind the IFS having a front locker is because it is meant to be a fun comp. Especially at the lower end of the field where the more standard vehicles are competing. A solid axle can have driveline upgrades to the front diff an IFS cant have, it can achieve some front flex an IFS cant. Simply put its meant to be fun, and a lot of people drive IFS and a lot of these lock the front. Why not try and get more people competing in the lower classes without the need for them to spnd big dollars?

Personally Id love to see some more 90 series Prados, Surfs, Pajeros, etc out there.

In the upper classes where people have chosen to spend the money or have a vehicle they dont have to daily drive then tighten the rules. I can only talk for myself, but my current vehicle is built different to any of the others I have had as it is never going to be a daily driver. If the 37s and beadlocks put me up a class so be it, I chose that combo for a reason and will live with the rules.

However back when my lux was IFS I would have happily had a crack at the lower classes for the fun and experience. But if I had to pull things like lockers out to do so, I doubt I would have. As I have said a few times looking from the outside as I have never competed, the whole point of the comp is meant to be fun. If people have to build specific vehicles to enter or go up a class and increase the risk to their daily driver they wont do it.

Anyway I will leave it there as I have had my say

[nastytroll]

WTF. Your alowd to run front locker because your unfortunate enough to buy IFS car???
Does that mean patrols need to drive backwards.
You can't possibly rate specs to vehicle drivetrain layout.

No matter what condition, you can't say LSD is same as open. LSD doesn't work, fix it. Drive smarter.

31" in stock class?
That's about 5" gain to a Sierra, same diff clearance as a patrol on 36"
or a Hilux on 35"

I'm pretty happy with the extreme mod rules now.

What 11_evl has stated makes complete sence.

There should be no rule changes for IFS or LSD/locker what ever. Set a tyre size, lift limit, what ever but it needs to be a blanket rule. Yes patrols have a good LSD but its now where near a locker. 80/100 cruisers have good front travel. All vehicles have there advantages. Most IFS vehicles are more manuverable then a fat ass land cruiser or patrol and jeeps and zooks have way more diff clearance. It all equals out overal, if you cant drive with what you got in a basic catagory then your doin it wrong.

Go back to the old ASSC days and look at the things Phil Harris would drive with a basic seirra, no big tyres, no fancy susspension, just a good driver. He was competative against big cruisers and patrols with a faily stock zook in modified class.

I'm all for the comp, we need more things like this happening.

[OIIIO]

WTF. Your alowd to run front locker because your unfortunate enough to buy IFS car???
Does that mean patrols need to drive backwards.
You can't possibly rate specs to vehicle drivetrain layout.

No matter what condition, you can't say LSD is same as open. LSD doesn't work, fix it. Drive smarter.

31" in stock class?
That's about 5" gain to a Sierra, same diff clearance as a patrol on 36"
or a Hilux on 35"

Dead right!..

A traction aid is a traction aid is a traction aid...
All this BS about some LSD's not being good enough... fix it, modify it or buy a fookin locker.......

No way is a rear locked anything as capable as an IFS rig with an LSD rear and a locked front...

31's on a stock Sierra or XJ/TJ Jeep.... nothing else would get near them!.
Stock class should be for mums shopping trolley with some muddies on it.
How good would it be to see every brand out there in stock class, on an even playing field?..

[big wheel sigma]

extreme modified fit me.

I'm a little confused by the beadlocks though, if internals are allowed whats the difference running mechs? I have 315's and 37's but both are on mech locked wheels, so it would put me into the outlaw class?

So a stregthed wheel (ringed) with internals is different to a mech lock?

Your comp, your rules, just sounds a bit funny.

externals are not approved for road use and make it unroadworthy but i dont know y this would cause a problem

Nor are 35s

Personally I think as a whole it looks good a few things that I dont like, like the no beadlocks and 35s only in Extreme Modified. Mainly because it means if I bring the Lux I go straight to Outlaw but hey I am sure Ill survive

But as a whole I think they are ok, I also agree with Milo that saying an LSD and front locker is the same as 2 lockers is a bit of a stretch.

As said many times the vehicle that won this year wasnt even locked. Perhaps on the front locker issue maybe allow IFS rigs to have a rear lsd and front locker? I mean compared to a well set up solid axle with decent suspension and rear locker its pretty even imo. Also an unlocked IFS is at a real disadvantage. Personally Id love to see some mildly modded IFS rigs out there having a go.

I dont agree with comments like ban lockers and buy an aftermarket LSD, I think the main reason this comp works is it suits the weekend wheelers modified rig. And lets be honest who is going to buy an aftermarket LSD over a locker.

Either way I will bring my pos along next year and run where ever it fits in, as long as I come home with a smile I am happy.

You make a good point about independant vehicles being disadvantaged because the lack of front wheel travel. However I also think that the sigma which competed this year in modified class with a front locker and LSD rear was maybe more capable then the rear locked vehicles. Even so, it is a good point and am seriously considering letting the independant vehicles have a front locker but no rear locker. What do others think about this?

Shane

Yahooooooo
And a PIZZLY rear locka

[big wheel sigma]

Lets face it, if the sigma has to move up a class then so be it.
Can i still use my son as ny navi in Ext Mod class

[1MadEngineer]

fark this is a funny thread!

reminds me of every time an event organisor TRIES to do the right thing and opens up there rulings for discussion.

Always seems to end with either RUFF cracking it at some dickh##ds and threatening to ban them, or the guys wanting to run the comp saying "farkit tooo hard"

Brendan / Shane, get together and have a CLOSED meeting about this stuff, learn and take advice ONLY from others that have REAL experience in event organisation. Set the rules YOU want to run! Then if competitors show up it will be a good event. Don't listen to crap, this always seems to mean the eventual death of best intentions.

All this whinging and crap about a FUN COMP is a cop out. IT IS A COMP, and yes you can 'enjoy' the event which might be considered as fun. IF you just want to have fun, then stay at home and play with yourself!
After years of competing it almost always seems the guys that start whinging "but its meant to be a fun comp" are the ones that always seem to try and bend the rules or want the rules changed to suit them. They also seem to be the guys that turn up waaaaaaaay underprepared and have little to no safety or recovery equipment, and are the first to critisize the event (including how they are run and how the poor guy wasting hours to recover their POS "scratched it").

Sorry if it sounds like a rant BUT there are probably a dozen comp organisers on this board that will agree 100%. Just read ANY of the Toughtracks threads or tufftruck or XWC or...........

[Suspension Stuff]

I am happy to listen to others becuase I still don't know everything even if the Mrs does call me a know it all.

Also, I know I am going to get different opinions and critisizm by those who have been there before me but I don't let that deter me. If I did I would still be working for someone but no I am a business owner doing it differently to the next guy. I have a gut feeling that the Suspension Stuff business will be a great one one day and I also have a gut feeling that this comp will also be a great comp. The foundation of my business is in listening to the customer and the opinions on this forum so I am not about to stop listening now.

[Suspension Stuff]

STOCK CLASS
What about max 32 inch tyres and maxium 2 inches bigger then what is on the placard, whichever is the smaller ?????

[OIIIO]

STOCK CLASS
What about max 32 inch tyres and maxium 2 inches bigger then what is on the placard, whichever is the smaller ?????

What about 2'' over placard size across the board?..
With a max of 32" some of the more modern 4x4's would have no advantage. i.e. JK's have 32's stock.

For what's it's worth, I think you're either crazy or a very patient bloke.
Putting all this out for discussion, as you know, is always going to attract both negative and positive comments.

Hat's off to you for giving everyone a chance to voice their opinion.

[nastytroll]

STOCK CLASS
What about max 32 inch tyres and maximum 2 inches bigger then what is on the placard, whichever is the smaller ?????

What about 2'' over placard size across the board?..
With a max of 32" some of the more modern 4x4's would have no advantage. i.e. JK's have 32's stock.

For what's it's worth, I think you're either crazy or a very patient bloke.
Putting all this out for discussion, as you know, is always going to attract both negative and positive comments.

Hat's off to you for giving everyone a chance to voice their opinion.

Forget the what ever over stock and just have a size. Standard class by rights should be a hands down winner to a wrangler, probably the most capable 4wd out of the box. Actually all categories up to a 33" tyre size should be won by a wrangler.

Keep the rules simple.
I would say up to 285 75 16/33" for standard class, they are big tyres for a zook or TJ and very common on standard patrols and cruisers.
Street mod up to 35"
Extreme mod up to 37"

Stock class to be open or standard lsd
street mod 1 locker and lsd
Ext mod twin locked

Bead locks should be open to all, I see them more as safety. A tyre is expensive and a bead lock can save the tyres. You can still run very low pressures if you glue the tyre on.

The rest looks fine. Most comps don't cater for a tough tourer, lots of people with 4" lift a front locker and 35's. Those who would compete but don't want to compete against trailered rigs or winch trucks. There would be a good opportunity to create a level for the average bloke that's just above the stock but not quite Ext mod.

The most important thing is have a simple set of rules and vehicle spec.

X height, X tyre size,etc. make or model should be relevant.

[Suspension Stuff]

STOCK CLASS
What about max 32 inch tyres and maxium 2 inches bigger then what is on the placard, whichever is the smaller ?????

What about 2'' over placard size across the board?..
With a max of 32" some of the more modern 4x4's would have no advantage. i.e. JK's have 32's stock.

For what's it's worth, I think you're either crazy or a very patient bloke.
Putting all this out for discussion, as you know, is always going to attract both negative and positive comments.

Hat's off to you for giving everyone a chance to voice their opinion.

I don't want the stock class to be made up of 15 JK Wranglers, they should be in the modified class as they are stock.

Probably both crazy and patient. I don't let the over opininated self serving idiots who think they are great because they successfully paid out on someone enough to make them look silly on a forum ruin it for the rest of us. (No-one specifically in mind but you got to think about this before you put a comp rules up for discussion.)

Shane

[Suspension Stuff]

I know I have said it before but the reason why extreme mod isn't at 37" tyres is because most vehicles drive train won't take a 37" tyre. I don't want the extreme mod class made up of 15 Patrols.

At the moment we only have a couple of people in Outlaw class. There is plenty of room for more drivers with 37's.

In the modified class (33' Tyre class) I want people to just bring their weekend wheeler and comp it. Most weekend wheelers don't have beadlocks. Therefore we are just forced to keep the pressures higher.

Shane