Sump design

[Struth]

Holden V8 in a 4WD.

Currently it has a custom front sump that allowed clearence to the IFS, I haven't changed this since the SAS but the time is here to fix it.

On steep climbs (the sort that require crawling of rocks etc and a fair amount of revs from time to time (even just 2000 rpm while the winch is running) the oil runs to the back of the sump and starves the oil pickup and engine of oil. This is not much fun as no one wants a dead engine in the bush or to damage the engine.

I can see how design of the sump will effect the above and am thinking a mid bowl sump would be ideal. To ensure the rear of the sump can't contain as much oil as the bowl. But will this just mean that the rear of the engine will be flooded by oil and not necessarily ensure the bowl and pick up area remains full.

If it's baffled to allow a greater angle before oil flows into the rear of the sump, wont this mean that once the steep stuff is over you have to get back to at least level for the oil that did get to the rear of the sump, by angle or simply fed down from the engine, to reach the bowl again. And likewise when driving on the road oil would gather in the rear of the sump until it overflows into the bowl again.

I need some advice on sump building here please fellas.


Cheers

[alien]

maybe try some searches on fuel tanks - the principle is very similar with baffles etc.

I dont know aynthing about it, but could you not have a small gap at the bottom and in the middle of the baffles so the oil passes in and out at a regulated rate?

Can you run a pump at the back of the sump to transfer oil around to the front?

[ozy1]

im looking into this at the moment, putting a 304 into a GQ, and am using a kingswood rear drop sump, the problem with these is its hard to find a baffled sump, so i have a sump which i will be adding a baffle to,

anyone has any tips ill be sure to listen

[rockcrawler31]

That's a tough one, it sounds like no matter how you build it there's going to be a compromise. I'm guessing that since driving down extreme downhills you won't need RPM's , design your sump and baffles so that uphills will put the oil in the pickup zone. Perhaps design your baffles so that instead of controlling the flow, on a steep hill they actually trap oil in the deep bowl for pickup? I don't know how to explain this without a diagram but some kind of half lid over the rear part of the deep bowl that holds oil even if it's just a litre or two.

Either that or if you're truly worried about it run a dry sump.

[Rhett]

Have you thought about swinging baffles? one at both front and back with a centre pickup. Have them both swing inwards. When going uphill the rear closes up and down hill visa versa.

[ludacris]

. .
. .
. . . .. .. .. .. .
. * . . . . . .. . .. . .. . .. . .. .
. Pick up .
. . . . . . . . . . . . .

I cannot comment on the Holden motor but with our 302 windsor we built this sump. Pick up is at the rear of the sump. Where the star is we have on both sides of the sump a copper line that runs from the back of the heads (we drilled and tapped a hole on the back of each head very close to where the original oil flow down starts) into the pick up area of the sump. We use weld in threads on the sump. We welded in a baffle above the pick up. Be care full that you can still slide the pick up in. Hope this helps.

Cris

[ludacris]

The drawing did not work. I will draw it and take a photo then upload it if you like.

Cris

[-Scott-]

The drawing did not work. I will draw it and take a photo then upload it if you like.

Cris

Yep - it's a bitch, the way the forum software strips out extra spaces.

Makes it harder to render in ASCII.

The "code" function can help:

Code: Select all

.                                                                 .
.                                                                 .
.  . . .. ..  .. ..                                              .
 .         *                   . . . . . .. . .. . .. . .. . .. .
  .   Pick up             .
  . . . . . . . . . . . . .

I cannot comment on the Holden motor but with our 302 windsor we built this sump. Pick up is at the rear of the sump. Where the star is we have on both sides of the sump a copper line that runs from the back of the heads (we drilled and tapped a hole on the back of each head very close to where the original oil flow down starts) into the pick up area of the sump. We use weld in threads on the sump. We welded in a baffle above the pick up. Be care full that you can still slide the pick up in. Hope this helps.

Cris

[ludacris]

The drawing did not work. I will draw it and take a photo then upload it if you like.

Cris

Yep - it's a bitch, the way the forum software strips out extra spaces.

Makes it harder to render in ASCII.

The "code" function can help:

Code: Select all

.                                                                 .
.                                                                 .
.  . . .. ..  .. ..                                              .
 .         *                   . . . . . .. . .. . .. . .. . .. .
  .   Pick up             .
  . . . . . . . . . . . . .

I cannot comment on the Holden motor but with our 302 windsor we built this sump. Pick up is at the rear of the sump. Where the star is we have on both sides of the sump a copper line that runs from the back of the heads (we drilled and tapped a hole on the back of each head very close to where the original oil flow down starts) into the pick up area of the sump. We use weld in threads on the sump. We welded in a baffle above the pick up. Be care full that you can still slide the pick up in. Hope this helps.

Cris

Thats awsome. Thanks Scott.

Cris

[Spartacus]

Can there be 2 or 3, 12mm holes in the bottom of the baffle/s?

| |
|___^___^___^___|

teh funnay diagram

[Struth]

The drawing did not work. I will draw it and take a photo then upload it if you like.

Cris

Yep - it's a bitch, the way the forum software strips out extra spaces.

Makes it harder to render in ASCII.

The "code" function can help:

Code: Select all

.                                                                 .
.                                                                 .
.  . . .. ..  .. ..                                              .
 .         *                   . . . . . .. . .. . .. . .. . .. .
  .   Pick up             .
  . . . . . . . . . . . . .

I cannot comment on the Holden motor but with our 302 windsor we built this sump. Pick up is at the rear of the sump. Where the star is we have on both sides of the sump a copper line that runs from the back of the heads (we drilled and tapped a hole on the back of each head very close to where the original oil flow down starts) into the pick up area of the sump. We use weld in threads on the sump. We welded in a baffle above the pick up. Be care full that you can still slide the pick up in. Hope this helps.

Cris

Thats awsome. Thanks Scott.

Cris

So it seems to have a baffle from the front of the sump over the bowl and stopping just before the rear of the sump.

This looks like it would be good for downhill work but give me the same prob's with uphill work.

Is there something else in this design I am missing?

Cheers

[ludacris]

The drawing did not work. I will draw it and take a photo then upload it if you like.

Cris

Yep - it's a bitch, the way the forum software strips out extra spaces.

Makes it harder to render in ASCII.

The "code" function can help:

Code: Select all

.                                                                 .
.                                                                 .
.  . . .. ..  .. ..                                              .
 .         *                   . . . . . .. . .. . .. . .. . .. .
  .   Pick up             .
  . . . . . . . . . . . . .

I cannot comment on the Holden motor but with our 302 windsor we built this sump. Pick up is at the rear of the sump. Where the star is we have on both sides of the sump a copper line that runs from the back of the heads (we drilled and tapped a hole on the back of each head very close to where the original oil flow down starts) into the pick up area of the sump. We use weld in threads on the sump. We welded in a baffle above the pick up. Be care full that you can still slide the pick up in. Hope this helps.

Cris

Thats awsome. Thanks Scott.

Cris

So it seems to have a baffle from the front of the sump over the bowl and stopping just before the rear of the sump.

This looks like it would be good for downhill work but give me the same prob's with uphill work.

Is there something else in this design I am missing?

Cheers

The baffle goes straight to the back of the sump. Motor has never starved of oil ever since we done this mod.

You could also build a lot bigger sump if you have the clearance and just have a bigger volume of oil or dry sump it.

Cris

[Struth]

The drawing did not work. I will draw it and take a photo then upload it if you like.

Cris

Yep - it's a bitch, the way the forum software strips out extra spaces.

Makes it harder to render in ASCII.

The "code" function can help:

Code: Select all

.                                                                 .
.                                                                 .
.  . . .. ..  .. ..                                              .
 .         *                   . . . . . .. . .. . .. . .. . .. .
  .   Pick up             .
  . . . . . . . . . . . . .

I cannot comment on the Holden motor but with our 302 windsor we built this sump. Pick up is at the rear of the sump. Where the star is we have on both sides of the sump a copper line that runs from the back of the heads (we drilled and tapped a hole on the back of each head very close to where the original oil flow down starts) into the pick up area of the sump. We use weld in threads on the sump. We welded in a baffle above the pick up. Be care full that you can still slide the pick up in. Hope this helps.

Cris

Thats awsome. Thanks Scott.

Cris

So it seems to have a baffle from the front of the sump over the bowl and stopping just before the rear of the sump.

This looks like it would be good for downhill work but give me the same prob's with uphill work.

Is there something else in this design I am missing?

Cheers

The baffle goes straight to the back of the sump. Motor has never starved of oil ever since we done this mod.

You could also build a lot bigger sump if you have the clearance and just have a bigger volume of oil or dry sump it.

Cris

Thanks, so is it a rear bowl sump?

Cheers

[ludacris]

Yes it is a rear bowl sump and the copper lines feed the bowl.

Never had a problem facing down hills as there is enough oil and you never rev hard driving down hills like you do trying to get up hills.

Been using this setup for years now in the winch challenges.

Cris

[Struth]

Yes it is a rear bowl sump and the copper lines feed the bowl.

Never had a problem facing down hills as there is enough oil and you never rev hard driving down hills like you do trying to get up hills.

Been using this setup for years now in the winch challenges.

Cris

Thanks, I can't work out where the copper lines go or what they do, can you explain this a bit more.

Cheers

[Mr DJ]

cool thread.

Sounds like a copper pipe (1/2" ?) from the back of the heads/block (where oil will want to flow to with the nose up) gravity feeding directly to the sump (below the baffle) to the pickup.
Can you say exactly where on the heads/block you taped the pipes into ??
Which heads are they, GT40P's ??

[ludacris]

cool thread.

Sounds like a copper pipe (1/2" ?) from the back of the heads/block (where oil will want to flow to with the nose up) gravity feeding directly to the sump (below the baffle) to the pickup.
Can you say exactly where on the heads/block you taped the pipes into ??
Which heads are they, GT40P's ??

They are standard heads. The baffle plate is higher than my artistic drawing. It is just above the copper fitting. And the big hole is where I drilled and tapped the head. It is directly on the oil drain gallery at the back of the head.


[img][img]http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g36/k ... ris019.jpg[/img][/img]
[img][img]http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g36/k ... ris018.jpg[/img][/img]

Cris

[ludacris]

If you like you can come and have a look to get a better idea.

Cris

[Struth]

Now I get it, great idea.

Cheers for the info.

[Mr DJ]

If you like you can come and have a look to get a better idea.

Cris

Might do that Cris, thanks.
BTW, what sump is that ??
This is a Bronco rear sump I will be using (same as US Explorer) ..

[ludacris]

Sump is a F150.

Cris

[80's_delirious]

Struth, I just found these pics of a sump baffle in a thread on Pirate.
it is for a LS1, though it might give you some ideas.

[5inchgq]

it's expensive and involved but have you considered the alternative ???? DRY SUMP ??

[Struth]

it's expensive and involved but have you considered the alternative ???? DRY SUMP ??

Yes but I just spent a fortune on other mods and it's not a good time to ask the managing directoress for more dough

[Struth]

Struth, I just found these pics of a sump baffle in a thread on Pirate.
it is for a LS1, though it might give you some ideas.

Looks good, any pics of how it situates inside the sump.

Cheers

[80's_delirious]

top side of baffle. no other pics so I'm not sure how it is located?


it is from the 'BellyDoc' thread in GenChitChat linked from Pirate

[awill4x4]

That's quite a well designed and manufactured "trapdoor" system, we've done similar things in the past.
Take note of how they have removed the hinge pins and replaced them with with a smaller diameter wire. This allows the hinges to swing easily, if you use the standard hinge pins they will stick eventually, or even worse, come out and go for ride.
Regards Andrew.

[danaz]

I think if you've got the paqckage space to fit the pickup and bowl at the rear you'd be crazy not too. No matter how many / complex / well designed baffles you put in to a mid bowl sump a rear bowl sump is still a much better starting point because that's where the oil is being forced under acceleration and on uphills. You want the oil there when you need it most, a mid bowl may well be better for downhills but as others have said downhill is far less stress / revs.

[Struth]

I think if you've got the paqckage space to fit the pickup and bowl at the rear you'd be crazy not too. No matter how many / complex / well designed baffles you put in to a mid bowl sump a rear bowl sump is still a much better starting point because that's where the oil is being forced under acceleration and on uphills. You want the oil there when you need it most, a mid bowl may well be better for downhills but as others have said downhill is far less stress / revs.

I think you have hit the nail on the head, as long as I have room for a rear sump I will start the design as a rear bowl.

Cheers

[fester2au]

I think if you've got the paqckage space to fit the pickup and bowl at the rear you'd be crazy not too. No matter how many / complex / well designed baffles you put in to a mid bowl sump a rear bowl sump is still a much better starting point because that's where the oil is being forced under acceleration and on uphills. You want the oil there when you need it most, a mid bowl may well be better for downhills but as others have said downhill is far less stress / revs.

I think you have hit the nail on the head, as long as I have room for a rear sump I will start the design as a rear bowl.

Cheers

Good start and simple would be the way to go. If you are going to fab one yourself from scratch and you have the clearance depending on wher eyou motor sits in relation to the diff etc have you looked at simply how Toyota and Nissan have set their sumps up on their big motors. A similar side profile maybe moved a bit to suit the clearance assuming the pick up can be rerouted to suit would appear to be the easiest and most logical place to start with.