timing issues for my 3.5L help.

[Silver_pig_gq]

replaced my timing cover on a 3.5l rrc and forgot to mark the dissy rotor in relation to the dissy body. and i may have turned the engine over whilst removing harmonic balancer, so now that im trying to get it to run i cant get the timing right! Ive read the manual and it keeps refering back to a secation called "complete ignition timing procedure" but i cant find it anywhere.

Just wondering if anyone knows the complete run down of setting timing on one of these things. i mean i try to find TDC on cyl. 1 but i dont know if its the bang or squeeze cycle. I did manage to get the car running but it sounded like the pistons were hitting something bad so i stopped it and gave up.

If someone could tell me how to fix or direct me to a book and website that would be great!

[Silver_pig_gq]

ok so after a full day of mucking around and trial and error i managed to get the timing spot on. BUT.

Now when the engine runs it makes an awful noise like the tappets need adjusting....badly/ really badly knocking noise. its pretty bad and it only started doing it after i changed the timing cover. i didnt fiddle with anything else and the only thing thats moving related to the time cover is the dissy and the timing gears, which i didnt touch...... help?

[RangingRover]

Did you take the leads off the dizzy cap? Firing order could be out....

[Silver_pig_gq]

nothing was changed around as far as i know. will check leads tomorrow but i just pulled the cap off and sat it up on the manifold out of the way. I dont even know if its timing related anymore, using a timing light, its showing the correct timing but its still knocking and pretty much undriveable.

[garrycol]

Is the noise actually tappet noise? Did by any chance did you disturb the oil pump in doing the front cover - certainly earlier 3.5s need to have their oil pumps primed to get pressure if disturbed (done by filling the pump gears with Vaseline) also in the earlier 3.5s the dissy is driven via the oil pump - do you have oil pressure?

Alternatively is the knocking sound - exactly that, knocking or pinging caused by the timing being way out (too far advanced??)

Garry

[Silver_pig_gq]

LOL. funny enough i changed the oil pump from the old cover to the new cover.... and may or maynot have forgotten to prime it! but even if i did it shouldnt be making that noise from as soon as i start the motor? and im pretty sure the oil press gauge is moving. I have the timing set at 5 degrees ATDC as the plate states in the engine bay, well at least i think its at 5 degrees. does a couple of degrees really make that much of a difference? and does anyone actually know how to completely re time a dissy? because as it stands ive got no markings on the dissy, dont know if the timing marks actually line up with the pointer and shit all stopping me from lighting it all on fire!

[RangingRover]

I have the timing set at 5 degrees ATDC as the plate states in the engine bay, well at least i think its at 5 degrees.

Leaving the oil pump aside - ATDC? That would suggest AFTER top dead centre to me, which is wrong - should be BEFORE top dead centre (I run at least 8 degrees advance too, but 5 degrees won't make it rattle, just little sluggish). Having timing retarded like that might cause a fair racket, can't remember what happens on a Rover V8 when you do it.

I assume your timing light is actually connected to number 1 cylinder (front cylinder on passenger side). When you say undriveable, do you mean you don't want to drive it, or it runs like crap? If its running like crap (missing etc), it will be timing.

[Silver_pig_gq]

So wait, What is the timing on a 3.5L carbie rover meant to be? on the plate riveted to the engine bay it states 5 degrees ATDC (after top dead centre) with vaccum advance and retard connected. ive set it at 5 degrees ATDC and the engine runs but with the knocking and rattles and such that its so bad i CANT drive it (no power, high noise, sounds like im doing damage). and when i turn the dissy clockwise is just stalls the engine and i can adjust the dissy anymore anticlockwise due to it hitting the timing cover..... but its my understanding that with turning the dissy anticlockwise your retarding the time I.e heading towards Before top dead centre? and the opposite for clockwise?

[garrycol]

Timing for my early 3.5 as listed in the workshop manual is 3 degrees Before Top Dead Centre at 600 rpm - with VACUUM ADVANCE DISCONNECTED and the pipe into the inlet manifold plugged. As I have LPG I have mine set at 9 degrees BTDC with vacuum disconnected. When I then test it with vacuum tested to ensure it works it still has 9 BTDC at idle but with some revs (2500 - 3000) the advance moves to about 20 degrees BTDC.

So if you have set it at 5ATDC with vacuum connected I would say you are retarded far too much. Try setting it at 3 degrees btdc with vacuum disconnected.

However this is unlikely to cause the knocking you describe.

[Silver_pig_gq]

Just took video of the engine running, some of the knocking you can hear but it sounds about twice as worse in person. I started the engine with timing set a 3 degrees BTC and during video you can see me adjust and even dissconnect vaccum advance but the knocking sounds are still there.

link to video is :

http://s364.photobucket.com/albums/oo82 ... V00884.mp4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

hope this helps

[garrycol]

Ok - I must admit I cannot here any knocking - and if it is there with timing of 3 degrees before TDC it has nothing to do with the timing. I am afraid I cannot help directly.

A better Aussie forum to get the advice you are after is the Australian Landrover Owners forum - http://www.aulro.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - join and post in the tech area and put in a link to your video and you will get heaps of advice.

Cheers

Garry

[Philip A]

Just wondering if anyone knows the complete run down of setting timing on one of these things. i mean i try to find TDC on cyl. 1 but i dont know if its the bang or squeeze cycle. I did manage to get the car running but it sounded like the pistons were hitting something bad so i stopped it and gave up.

You replaced the timing cover only and did not prime the oil pump?
It sounds to me like the oil pressure has not risen and its the tappets.
Don't you have an oil pressure light?
In ALL cases if you have removed the timing cover which houses the oil pump , you have to prime the pump by filling it with vaseline, or by running the pump up with a shaft in a drill into the slot.
The ignition timing will have no effect on the noise.

Some of the pollution motors from 1980-to 1985 gave 5ATDC as timing for pollution but most work best at 6-9 BTDC. I am not sure that the total centrifugal advance is the same on these dizzys, so when you get it running correctly, expand the timing marks by just measuring the distance to the 12degreeBTDC mark then extend the marks to 30 degress=12x1.5.
Make sure that at 4000RPM the advance does not exceed 30degrees.

But to start the engine any timing between 5ATDC and 10BTDC should be fine . You can also remove the vacuum retard hose if it has one, the one closer to the dizzy and block up both ends. These engines are so old now its very doubtful that it has all its original pollution gear anyway.
Regards Philip A

[Silver_pig_gq]

would it be making the knocking noise from the start though, even if i didnt prime the oil pump? i have an oil light that stays on now that ive changed the cover but i also have an oil pressure gauge and it moves slighty when the engine is running. is there anyway of priming the oil pump without pulling everything apart again?

[Philip A]

would it be making the knocking noise from the start though, even if i didnt prime the oil pump?

I do not really understand the question.Usually if the engine had not been started for a long time it will rattle from the start, but if it were only stopped for a few hours the tappets may still have had oil in them.

Anyway, you do not have to pull it all apart again. All you do is take the lower cover off the oil pump and stuff vaseline tightly into all the gaps between the oil pump gears.
The oil light should go out within say 10 seconds and then the tappet rattle should subside over say a minute.
BTW why did you replace the timing cover. Did you inspect the oil pump in the new cover? had it been lying around for a long time?
Regards Philip A

[garrycol]

[quote="Silver_pig_gq"]would it be making the knocking noise from the start though, even if i didnt prime the oil pump? i have an oil light that stays on now that ive changed the cover but i also have an oil pressure gauge and it moves slighty when the engine is running. is there anyway of priming the oil pump without pulling everything apart again?[/quote]

This is a worry as you have been running the engine - as it appears without oil pressure. If you had oil pressure the oil light would go out and your oil gauge would read about 40psi - a flicker does not mean anything.

I would get the oil pump primed as Phillip has suggested and hope your running of the engine has not damaged any of the bearings etc. I raised the issue of priming the oil pump but I understood that you actually had oil pressure when it now appears you did not.

I hope it all works out for you.

Garry

[Silver_pig_gq]

yeah my bad garrycol. would of helped if i said i didnt prime the oil pump from the start. ive run it for a total of about 1 and a half minutes, would this be long enough to cause damage to an un-lubricated engine? it did not rev over 2 grand. I will prime oil pump, reset timing and try again on the weekend. if that dosent work ill have to put on the back-burner as i have a landrover thats begging for its new engine to be put in.

Thanks for everyone that had an input to this problem, proves there really are some really helpful people on this forum!

[garrycol]

Running at low revs and with no load you could be Ok.

Garry

[Silver_pig_gq]

Primed oil pump gears with lots of vasoline and kicked engine over without coil lead in to build up pressure for a bit. started first time, tappet noise was better and dissapeared within one minute of running and the oil pressure gauge showed full pressure. She purs like a kitten now!

[garrycol]

That is great - alls well that ends well.