need help to make a tyre press using hydraulics

[shorty_f0rty]

***mods, while this thread contains references to tyres, hydraulic rams and building a hydrualic system its not entirely 4x4 related. feel free to move to gen chit-chat if you think its more appropriate.

I was hoping I could get some assistance from the outer oracles in regards to locating parts, spec'ing requirements and building a hydraulic tyre press.

Some background: I'm a big fan of being self sustaining and am working towards building my own home. I'm looking to base our new home on the earthship principles which will allow me to use certain waste as building materials.. most of all will be used tyres.. These tyres need to be compacted with dirt (usually with a sledge) to make them load bearing.. this is where the tyre press comes in, especially when there are a few hundred, maybe a thousand tyres needed depending on the size of the house.

While im not currently building the house now I'd still like to try and get this tyre press sorted out sooner rather than later.



This tyre press is a hydraulic ram that compresses the dirt inside of the tyre by opening and closing repeatedly. I guess its got a 2 way control allowing you to contract and expand.

here are some pics I've found on the net of a tyre press similar to the one i'd like to try and make:
This guy had some existing hydraulic equipment he butchered for the purpose... The ram he used is on the left middle of picture.


The same guy used some 16" pipe to use as plates to compact the dirt inside the tyres.


here is a finished pic of the ram, it looks like the left side is fixed while the other side expands/contracts:


the above tyre press in action:



Here is another tyre press used for the same purpose. The outer metal band helps to stop the tyre from distorting:




So... the help I need is...

- where could I find a similar type of ram? Would a truck wreckers have something suitable or too large? the size of the tyres will be the most common size, something similar to a 16x 7.00 tyre.
- would a hydraulic pump thats attached to a 4cyl diesel engine (also used as generator) be able to generate enough pressure for the pump?
- what sort of controllers would you need to control the ram?
- how bit would the hydralic tank need to be to support the pump?

I've got a few more pics and will update this thread as I get them.

[hotgemini]

Hopefully someone more knowledgeable than me will come in with details, but you're going to need a pump (sounds like you already have one), a directional control valve, a cylinder with a big enough piston to create the required force at the pressure your pump is putting out (specs? 3000psi?), a reservoir at least a bit larger than the displacement of the cylinder (diameter of the cylinders shaft times the stroke) and the necessary hoses and fittings to connect it together.

You're looking at a pretty short cylinder to be able to fit it and your end plates inside a 16 inch rim, something like this might be workable.

[shorty_f0rty]

Thanks for the ebay link HotGemini. I think it's pretty close.. I assume the pressure the ram can handle relates to how much force it will create? for example a 3000psi system will compress with more force than a 1500psi system?

In regards to a pump I dont have one but would a power steering pump do the job? or would you need something that can generate the pressure that the ram needs?

From reading about other peoples tyre press some mention that they have about 1500psi ram/pressure system.

Theres a few things in that section on ebay that I noticed might work.. like this control valve : http://cgi.ebay.com.au/HYDRAULIC-DIRECT ... 43a0f20f2c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[shorty_f0rty]

Looking around at the stuff on ebay some more questions:
- what sort of flow rate would I need? How can i calculate the required flow rate?
- do gear driven and belt driven pumps put out different flow rates?
- would a 12v hyd pump be better than a belt driven pump

[want33s]

Using tyres looks like a shitload of work to me....
Why not just do rammed earth?



Good luck with it though..

[shorty_f0rty]

Using tyres looks like a shitload of work to me....
Why not just do rammed earth?



Good luck with it though..

Using tyres WILL BE a shitload of work.. no denying that, especially when you have to manually pack them yourself. One of the principles is being able to use low skill labour to make the load bearing walls.. This tyre press will make things a lot easier by doing the hard compacting inside the tyre without the effort you'd normally need if you used a sledge.

[KiwiBacon]

Looking around at the stuff on ebay some more questions:
- what sort of flow rate would I need? How can i calculate the required flow rate?
- do gear driven and belt driven pumps put out different flow rates?
- would a 12v hyd pump be better than a belt driven pump

The flow rate just determines how fast it will happen and how much power you need to drive the pump. Simply higher flow rates will need more power driving the pump. A belt driven pump will be able to deliver more power and get the job done faster than 12v pump will.

Here's the basic way to predict what you want to happen.
1. Work out how much force you need to pack the dirt. This will give you two results, cylinder area needed for 1500psi and cylinder area needed for 3000psi. The 3000psi cylinder will be half the area (about 70% the diameter) of the 1500psi cyilnder to give the same force. A few measurements of an existing setup that works is a good place to start.
2. Find a suitable cylinder, the size of this cylinder will determine what pressure you need.
3. Find a range of suitable pumps, your budget will probably dictate how much power you can get.

A small portable petrol or diesel pump (as found on hydraulic log splitters) would be an option.

[bru21]

As a chemist (in the plastics industry) I personally would not live in a tyre house.
The catalysts used in tyres are seriously toxic and I think that living in a house made of tyres would cause longer term health concerns.

The reason tyres go hard over time is that the catalysts are still present and further the reaction - that set the natural rubber in the first place, to the point the tyre is no longer flexible.

For example problems with burning tyres (for lack of finding a better link whilst at work):

http://www.energyjustice.net/tires" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I am not in the tyre industry however, and won't say don't do it - just research it until you are happy it is a safe thing to do.

cheers bru

[shorty_f0rty]

Thanks for the heads up Bru. I have been investigating this idea for about a year now and this is the first time I've heard some one mention this as a concern.

In most circumstances the tyre walls will get rendered over so they are not visible and have another between the tyres and the occupants but again I dont know if this is enough to protect the occupants. I'll add this to my list of things to investigate .

[shorty_f0rty]

Kiwibacon, thanks for the flow rate/PSI calculations.. I guess all I need to do now is find out how much force a sledge is generating when your packing a tyre..

[bru21]

also why not make a weak cement mix and slurry / vibrate it

[thehanko]

also why not make a weak cement mix and slurry / vibrate it

cement might not factor too well into the enviro thing. cement is bad stuff for the planet.

[shorty_f0rty]

also why not make a weak cement mix and slurry / vibrate it

cement might not factor too well into the enviro thing. cement is bad stuff for the planet.

Not sure what youre refering to in regards to use, You can use recycled concrete and crush that to provide a type of render.

the deal with using tyres is that when they are packed with dirt they can be stacked to provide a load bearing wall which the rest of the building its built around. Sure there will be other load barers for the roof, etc but the main will be tyres.

[80's_delirious]

also why not make a weak cement mix and slurry / vibrate it

cement might not factor too well into the enviro thing. cement is bad stuff for the planet.

there are enviro-cement products available, made from 100% recycled materials, less toxins etc.

My first thought was simiilar to Bru in that I dont like the idea of the chemicals and hydrocarbons? etc leaching out of the tyres into an enclosed living space.

I have very hippie relo's who are in the process of building a "house" from hay bails, render with mud/dirt sourced on site. It has a structural frame (poles and redimentary trusses) made from timber cut and sawn on the property.
One thing that concerns me with mud rendered hay or rammed earth construction is how do you stop white ant infestation? These type of methods would provide ideal conditions for white ants to get into roof framing etc. also, how do you stop rising damp? Damp houses can be an unhealthy environment to live in.
My cousins had cows get into their house yard and eat lots of the stacked hay before it was rendered

[chunderlicious]

the pressure the pump puts out changes the amount the ram can push to an extent. if you buy a hydraulic lifting ram, they are all (in most cases) rated at 10,000 psi, this is for a 1 tonne or a 250 tonne ram. the difference is the piston size of the ram. the larger the surface area the more it can push.
A 10,000psi 1 tonne rated ram needs 10,000psi to push 1 tonne
A 10,000psi 100 tonne rated ram needs 100psi to make 1 tonne etc. etc.

having a slow pump or small hydro lines/pump just means the ram will extend and retract slower. find a high pressure pump capable of 10,000psi, get a small ram capable of whatever tonnage you want, get the lightest one possible because moving them around alot is a crunt to do over and over. resi just needs to be larger than the ram and lines capacity, make sure there is enough for full extension and enough room to store more fluid then required on full retraction. 1/2 inch hydro lines from pirtek or hydraulink or work if you can and a 2 or 3 way valve depending on if you use a self retracting ram or not. self retracting means 1 hydro line, less weight to carry, less oil to store.

if youre going through with this, make it as light as possible, use the pressure not size of the ram to get the job done. make sure ALL equipment is in good nic as a hydraulic injection aint going to be pretty and the shit gets everywhere and gets dirty as with small leaks.

[shorty_f0rty]

Thanks chunderlicious, lots of good info there and some tips to keep in mind.

In regards to the other comments re: toxins and health concerns, i'm more than happy to create another thread in gen chit-chat as its not really appropriate in here. I will probably do that because if 1) i'm building this i dont want to have to move for a while 2) my family will have to live in it too and I dont want to make them sick and 3) just get as much info as possible moving forward before I commit to anything.

After you guys add your expertise and experience I might find that I dont want to subject my family to those risks and that changes the plan completely.

[RED60]

also why not make a weak cement mix and slurry / vibrate it

My cousins had cows get into their house yard and eat lots of the stacked hay before it was rendered

Don't panic on the cows eating the hay delerious... they're just getting it ready for cow poo render..... bovine cement mixers....

I am also with bru on the slurry idea..... make up a vibrating table.... screw mount a circular wood or metal cover on one side of the tyre/s you are going to use..... turn tyre so circular wood/metal is down onto vibrating table..... fill with weak mix/slurry of soil and cement (you may have to experiment with consistency of mix), then vibrate to make it settle into tyre... it should flow out to the extremities where you are forcing with it press system....keep adding till full... then set the tyre aside (it will be heavy). On second thoughts, maybe a normal concrete vibrator would be easier, since you could leave the tyre in place on the ground with its disc in place (down)... fill, vibrate, refil, vibrate till its completely full and move on the the next tyre... I think this would be quicker than the press method shown..... anyway food for thought... good luck and let the hippies how you go... with pics..

[80's_delirious]

also why not make a weak cement mix and slurry / vibrate it

My cousins had cows get into their house yard and eat lots of the stacked hay before it was rendered

Don't panic on the cows eating the hay delerious... they're just getting it ready for cow poo render..... bovine cement mixers....

I am also with bru on the slurry idea..... make up a vibrating table.... screw mount a circular wood or metal cover on one side of the tyre/s you are going to use..... turn tyre so circular wood/metal is down onto vibrating table..... fill with weak mix/slurry of soil and cement (you may have to experiment with consistency of mix), then vibrate to make it settle into tyre... it should flow out to the extremities where you are forcing with it press system....keep adding till full... then set the tyre aside (it will be heavy). On second thoughts, maybe a normal concrete vibrator would be easier, since you could leave the tyre in place on the ground with its disc in place (down)... fill, vibrate, refil, vibrate till its completely full and move on the the next tyre... I think this would be quicker than the press method shown..... anyway food for thought... good luck and let the hippies how you go... with pics..

ah huh, I will leave that brand of render for the hippies

as for a slurry made from soil, it would tend to shrink a lot when drying and would be likely to crack. dry packing will give much better compaction and a denser unit. Compacting soil for fill under buildings needs careful monitoring of the moisture content for best practice.
too little moisture, it wont bind together and wont compact, too much moisture produces mud which squishes everywhere wont compact fully and shrinks later

[1MadEngineer]

the pressure the pump puts out changes the amount the ram can push to an extent. if you buy a hydraulic lifting ram, they are all (in most cases) rated at 10,000 psi, this is for a 1 tonne or a 250 tonne ram. the difference is the piston size of the ram. the larger the surface area the more it can push.
A 10,000psi 1 tonne rated ram needs 10,000psi to push 1 tonne
A 10,000psi 100 tonne rated ram needs 100psi to make 1 tonne etc. etc.

having a slow pump or small hydro lines/pump just means the ram will extend and retract slower. find a high pressure pump capable of 10,000psi, get a small ram capable of whatever tonnage you want, get the lightest one possible because moving them around alot is a crunt to do over and over. resi just needs to be larger than the ram and lines capacity, make sure there is enough for full extension and enough room to store more fluid then required on full retraction. 1/2 inch hydro lines from pirtek or hydraulink or work if you can and a 2 or 3 way valve depending on if you use a self retracting ram or not. self retracting means 1 hydro line, less weight to carry, less oil to store.

if youre going through with this, make it as light as possible, use the pressure not size of the ram to get the job done. make sure ALL equipment is in good nic as a hydraulic injection aint going to be pretty and the shit gets everywhere and gets dirty as with small leaks.

whoooaaa thats way over my head!

actually you won't find many hydraulic pumps that are 10000psi rated, only really the low flow enerpack style.

[hammey]

What he said ^

Rule of thumb is 2500psi on standard braid D2900 hose, Yep you can go bigger but then your talking multi spiral hose which costs LOTS.
And if you dont know what multi spiral is you shouldn't be playing with it or the pressures involved.
Wind your relief valve all the way out. Start your motor and dead head the hyd cyl. whack a guage in the line and wind your relief valve in until either the motor stalls or you hit 2500 psi or there abouts, Bingo thats it.

The force applied will depend on the area of the piston of the cyl.

cheers smitty

[thehanko]

also why not make a weak cement mix and slurry / vibrate it

cement might not factor too well into the enviro thing. cement is bad stuff for the planet.

Not sure what youre refering to in regards to use, You can use recycled concrete and crush that to provide a type of render.

the deal with using tyres is that when they are packed with dirt they can be stacked to provide a load bearing wall which the rest of the building its built around. Sure there will be other load barers for the roof, etc but the main will be tyres.

I was referring to using cement slurry mix instead of straight earth. Cement production is one of the biggest carbon polluters out there. crushed concrete etc is a different story as recycling is obviously good.

how would termites go with compact earth? wonder if they compact nature would stop them. as for damp i dont see why a damp course couldnt be put in, even a termite cap or similar maybe?

its an interesting concept.

[shorty_f0rty]

In an effort to keep this thread technical, I've started a thread here: http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/viewtopic ... 0&t=221318" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; if you would like to comment on building principles, etc.

Thanks for the help so far everyone, its been extremely helpful.. I've got my 16x7.50 AT's off rims at the moment so I might start to measure them up to get a better idea of dimensions,etc for a hydraulic ram.