4.2 Injector pump for Big HP

[KiwiBacon]

You could make a 2 stage boost control for the compensator with a simple
air toggle and needle valve . Also how would you use pyro to limit fuel or
does the e-boost have a amplifier for the k type probe?

There are several EGT gauges out there with an output switched at a certain level.

[CustomTurbos]

I know I have said it before, but with the VNT (photo has been posted - its the one with the bigg sucker of a turbo on the side and 4 core laminova, it seemingly easily made 217rwkw on 35" tyres while on retarder, so did it for a few seconds.

OK, so that is 291hp not 300, BUT the fuel was there to do it and the air was there to do it IF all we had wanted that day was to make 300 at the wheels - we were aiming for over 200kw (267hp). EGT's were sub 700 pre turbo.

Again, that engine was 100% stock and not in perfect shape either.

Mods:

* Inj Pump
* 4" exhaust
* Turbo
* Laminova IC by Matt McInnes
* Big Airbox

Based on this, I believe that it IS definately achievable to exceed 300whp on a stock unopened TD42Ti save for the mods referenced.

We were only 9 smoke free hp away from 300 - probably not even 1/4 turn of main fuel screw.....

I am not completely objective here because I guess there are bragging rights for me in this because I did think it was possible to make the power that day and no-one to my knowledge had tried a vnt and everyone (bar a very few) pretty much told me it wouldnt work - I just about begged my cousin to try it , but no $ in sales of anything to be gained.

[Northside 4x4]

When I say E-Boost im not refering to the turbosmart product, just shortening Electronic 'had to clarify that.

The reason to use an electronic controller over any type of pneumatic system is to have 0-100% adjustment at any varied input (tps/rpm/water temp/egt etc..)
It is not to big of a job to setup a 0-1 or 0-5V output based off a water or egt temp gauge/probe.

You could then use that output as an input reference for your boost comp controller.

Lets say 4.5V (700deg) or as high as you want to go. At that point you could bleed off x amount of air to achieve the fuel ratio that holds 700.
Below this point at say 3.5V (620deg) you could bleed off nothing, giving maximum fuel input.

Using this setup, you could have a much more agressive mixture to get the temps up, then electronically pull it back to a sensible level, with no input from the driver, allowing him to concentrate on driving.
Think Spill Valve..... Same principal.

Does anybody use a late model GU pump with the electronic timing in their trucks? It is of huge benefit to have timing control on any motor.
Even with a stock motor, I have seen EGT temps go from 380-420 post turbo to well over 550 when this module fails.
That gives an indication of how critical it is to be able to choose your injection point in relation to rpm.

[Northside 4x4]

Dieselex - I have had the opportunity to run a TD42 a few months back with a VNT off a mini truck.

Only down side is the person who set it up ran the vanes in the closed position and used an external gate to control boost.
Unfortunate I know. I am currently providing details on how to setup a stepper motor to him so we may have decent results soon.

Apart from that, it was an interesting read today for most of the boy's at the shop (few laugh's to )
To show im not to backwards, or hiding behind a wall of text, we are interested in getting out there again to show a few other TD42's how to do it
Few part's ordered as a result:
Forged Steel Crank: Knife edged, lightened (roughly 40% lighter than std)
Custom Forged Steel rods (25% lighter, 60% increase in strength over standard)
Custom Pistons (Forged, 32% lighter, 15% stronger than std)
Will build a GTXX/GTXX compound setup for the job as even a VNT can match compounds for efficiency.
Hoping to get up around 65psi with block o-ring and better liners.
Pump built to deliver up to 6000rpm.

Have the full engine to build. Just need a car to put it in!

[CustomTurbos]

So is the crank the std item which happens to be forged from factory and then knife edged, of a custom forged crank that is knife edged.

I wasnt aware you could buy forged pistons for these. Are they a custom part for this special job or an off the shelf item - same for rods?

Anyway, a few people have something to prove now :-)

Dieselex - I have had the opportunity to run a TD42 a few months back with a VNT off a mini truck.

Only down side is the person who set it up ran the vanes in the closed position and used an external gate to control boost.
Unfortunate I know. I am currently providing details on how to setup a stepper motor to him so we may have decent results soon.

Apart from that, it was an interesting read today for most of the boy's at the shop (few laugh's to )
To show im not to backwards, or hiding behind a wall of text, we are interested in getting out there again to show a few other TD42's how to do it
Few part's ordered as a result:
Forged Steel Crank: Knife edged, lightened (roughly 40% lighter than std)
Custom Forged Steel rods (25% lighter, 60% increase in strength over standard)
Custom Pistons (Forged, 32% lighter, 15% stronger than std)
Will build a GTXX/GTXX compound setup for the job as even a VNT can match compounds for efficiency.
Hoping to get up around 65psi with block o-ring and better liners.
Pump built to deliver up to 6000rpm.

Have the full engine to build. Just need a car to put it in!

[84mksd33t]

So what now...is this a tuners pissing contest?

Fuck me, some of you blokes are sensitive.

[Northside 4x4]

Dieselex - Complete custom crank (Std crank is not forged from very good materials, has crappy oiling gallery design etc..)
- Custom pistons based off original design with my design of crown (completely different materiel and manufacturing process though)
- Cutsom Rods As per my spec of ratio along with Piston Gudgeon height inside piston..

Really Only took 15mins on the phone to find out weather my supplier could build such a thing before it was sorted with price per unit and rated HP/Unit, Pressure Tolerance, RPM/Unit, Heat Tolerance per 1/100mm growth, and all the other niggly bits (only basic stuff for a very simple build(

Definitely have nothing to prove though, just doing it to see if it can be done. Power out at 5500,6000rpm isnt unheard of for a diesel. But not an OEM diesel (flame me down all you like guys) I have the programs to determine piston G's and velocity dependant upon RPM/Rotational Mass/Weight. I also know what kind of pressures ARP studs and bolts can hold together for their fasteners after building many 11,000+rpm Honda NA 4 cylinder engines for circuit racing....

Really though. I need someone in the racing scene to be a partner with. Im not building a GQ/GU to do this with as its irrelevant from a business point to me.
I will simply build the engine along with ancillary parts (intercooler, exhaust, etc...) Until we find a suitable partner. It can sit in the showroom for all I care until I find a suitable partner to race with.

I am happy however to provide at an extremely discounted price (less than cost) parts and free labor for engine services if any team/privateer wanted to take up an outback challenge style event with one of my one off setups.

[KiwiBacon]

Are 60psi boost and lightened internals conflicting goals?

Personally I think someone needs to cast a direct injection head for a TD42. There's scope to improve efficiency by at least 25% compared to the IDI, this means 25% more power for the same boost and fuel.
It also means a lower compression ratio which handles boost better.

[sambo]

So what now...is this a tuners pissing contest?

I am pretty sure it has been that for a while now.

Great thread though, DI TD42 is a great idea, something Nissan should have done years ago.

[sswaffie]

Definitely have nothing to prove though, just doing it to see if it can be done. Power out at 5500,6000rpm isnt unheard of for a diesel. But not an OEM diesel .

VW golf revs to every bit of that
with their 1.9l eui system, It is going to be very hard to get a td42 to rev to
that and make power due to the idi due to dwell time etc , newer
commonrail systems with multi injection cycles can achieve this quite easy.
It's going to be hard and alot of time involved , Good luck

[CustomTurbos]

With all the money spent on other custom parts, I cant imagine that this would be any more expensive.

If kept simple, say use 1HDT style injectors and retain the timing control of a TD42Ti pump, would be a VERY nice engine and something actually generally useful for people concerned about fuel economy.

As as strange as it sounds, a high percentage of people are happy to throw megabucks at engine enhancement and still care about economy.

Are 60psi boost and lightened internals conflicting goals?

Personally I think someone needs to cast a direct injection head for a TD42. There's scope to improve efficiency by at least 25% compared to the IDI, this means 25% more power for the same boost and fuel.
It also means a lower compression ratio which handles boost better.

[CustomTurbos]

A few of you must have read the basically internal stock 1.6 IDI VW Rabbit with over 200hp - dyno also.

It died because a precom fell out, hardly a deal breaker...but bottom end held up.

It rev'd to 6k convincingly

As Dougal said....lightened internals and 60psi boost.... I get the different materials and I am sure there is enormous scope for design improvement of the crank (not to mention going to DI) but anyway, I cant wait to see it strapped to a water brake.........

Definitely have nothing to prove though, just doing it to see if it can be done. Power out at 5500,6000rpm isnt unheard of for a diesel. But not an OEM diesel .

VW golf revs to every bit of that
with their 1.9l eui system, It is going to be very hard to get a td42 to rev to
that and make power due to the idi due to dwell time etc , newer
commonrail systems with multi injection cycles can achieve this quite easy.
It's going to be hard and alot of time involved , Good luck

[sambo]

Wouldn't a Direct injection also require custom pistons, as doesn't it need a swirl pot incorporated into them.

Correct me if I am wrong but I thought there was a fair bit of thought that actually goes into the swirl pot design as opposed to just sticking a hole in the top of the piston.

[KiwiBacon]

Wouldn't a Direct injection also require custom pistons, as doesn't it need a swirl pot incorporated into them.

Correct me if I am wrong but I thought there was a fair bit of thought that actually goes into the swirl pot design as opposed to just sticking a hole in the top of the piston.

Yes. But if you start with 1HD-T injectors, you can also start with the 1HD-T shaped piston bowl. Essentially bludging off toyota's hard work. You could even sleeve it down to use 1HD-T pistons. Oh hang on, ZD30 also has a 96mm bore.

[Northside 4x4]

Lightening the internals is a goal to get the hp & revs, Strength of a forget billet conrod can more than tripple that of a cast item. All it comes down to is what speed that piston is traveling by the end of its very long stroke. The less that piston weighs, the less strain it puts on everything when it has to change directions.

Piston size will remain very close to the same, strength will be much higher, weight much lower..
Just having the piston forged means it does not have to have the steel inserts required in the cast units (big weight saving already).

So no I dont think 60psi and lightening the internals through better materials to be conflicting. Time will tell i guess.

I like the DI idea though. Couple it with an OHC 4 Valve design and you would have one weapon of a td42.

[Wilba]

Nuf said,nice indirect answer to a direct question.No1 you WERE knocking and No2 you have the results.I asked you if you built the manifolds and if you knew what configuration they were set up in.(ie style of exhaust housings for example) because I was wondering if your wonderfullness might have overlooked something to only manage 250rwhp. and yes I know i`m waisting my time.




quote="Northside 4x4"]Digsy - As I have never directly named any shops for poor quality work I fail to see the connection between what I said and what Doe said?

Wilba - Ask Heath what we helped him with. Im sure he could give you a detailed list if thats what your asking.

Aside from that, Im not 'knocking' anyone. If the group at large thinks 300+HP is possible without the 'extra's' (not sure what you mean by that) but if you mean good intercooling, inlet manifold improvements etc.. Then by all means, I am here waiting for the results. I have seen and tuned enough big hp TD42's to know that intercooling, manifold design, and so on, is absolutely critical in making the power and to overlook it would be a big mistake.

Swaff - Im not trying to take anything away from the work you have done. From all accounts you have the quickest car out there on the circuit's. And technology has come ahead by a staggering amount especially with turbo's over the last 4-5 years.
Did you make 300hp with just a decent turbo and pump setup though? Or did it take a little bit more work than that? That is all I have been trying to say.

Heath would be the only one with the dyno graphs, as graphs are removed from the dyno more than about 4 years old I dont have them any longer sorry.

Back to tech and idea's on the OP's build yet or what?[/quote]

[Northside 4x4]

Nuf said,nice indirect answer to a direct question.No1 you WERE knocking and No2 you have the results.I asked you if you built the manifolds and if you knew what configuration they were set up in.(ie style of exhaust housings for example) because I was wondering if your wonderfullness might have overlooked something to only manage 250rwhp. and yes I know i`m waisting my time.




quote="Northside 4x4"]Digsy - As I have never directly named any shops for poor quality work I fail to see the connection between what I said and what Doe said?

Wilba - Ask Heath what we helped him with. Im sure he could give you a detailed list if thats what your asking.

Aside from that, Im not 'knocking' anyone. If the group at large thinks 300+HP is possible without the 'extra's' (not sure what you mean by that) but if you mean good intercooling, inlet manifold improvements etc.. Then by all means, I am here waiting for the results. I have seen and tuned enough big hp TD42's to know that intercooling, manifold design, and so on, is absolutely critical in making the power and to overlook it would be a big mistake.

Swaff - Im not trying to take anything away from the work you have done. From all accounts you have the quickest car out there on the circuit's. And technology has come ahead by a staggering amount especially with turbo's over the last 4-5 years.
Did you make 300hp with just a decent turbo and pump setup though? Or did it take a little bit more work than that? That is all I have been trying to say.

Heath would be the only one with the dyno graphs, as graphs are removed from the dyno more than about 4 years old I dont have them any longer sorry.

Back to tech and idea's on the OP's build yet or what?

[/quote]

As the thread has been back on topic for at least 5-6 posts now, congrats on taking it back off yet again, with no usefull info.
And just to say it again, if you want to know, ask Heath (is that a direct enough answer?)

[fatassgq]

Few part's ordered as a result:
Forged Steel Crank: Knife edged, lightened (roughly 40% lighter than std)

Man I can imagine a tru knife edge crank in one of these especially if your asking it to rev that high with 60psi up its ass would be asking for trouble? Might end up looking like a pretzel! lol Me certainly no expert though.

How much do you think all this gear is gonna cost too, cause I know of at least one other bill that is SUPER important that should probably be ahead of it on the adgenda!

[doe]

Haha thats funny rite there.

[Northside 4x4]

Few part's ordered as a result:
Forged Steel Crank: Knife edged, lightened (roughly 40% lighter than std)

Man I can imagine a tru knife edge crank in one of these especially if your asking it to rev that high with 60psi up its ass would be asking for trouble? Might end up looking like a pretzel! lol Me certainly no expert though.

How much do you think all this gear is gonna cost too, cause I know of at least one other bill that is SUPER important that should probably be ahead of it on the adgenda!

What you read as knife edged really depends on the person. Some take it as a motorbike crank with paper thin counters, others take it a tapered counters, some people take it as simply the shape of the counters.

How much is it going to cost? Good question. As I already have a few blocks and heads that are ok to use pretty much just what the internals and fasteners cost.
Still only just scratched the surface on what parts will be going into it, but if you care to share what other part your refering to?
If its a custom crank girdle instead of the crappy two bolt mains? Yep got it covered already.

[fatassgq]

Was refering more to a bill not a part, but that is going to get off topic again ain't it.....lol


Carry on

[moddedgu]

Few part's ordered as a result:
Forged Steel Crank: Knife edged, lightened (roughly 40% lighter than std)

Man I can imagine a tru knife edge crank in one of these especially if your asking it to rev that high with 60psi up its ass would be asking for trouble? Might end up looking like a pretzel! lol Me certainly no expert though.

How much do you think all this gear is gonna cost too, cause I know of at least one other bill that is SUPER important that should probably be ahead of it on the adgenda!

What you read as knife edged really depends on the person. Some take it as a motorbike crank with paper thin counters, others take it a tapered counters, some people take it as simply the shape of the counters.

How much is it going to cost? Good question. As I already have a few blocks and heads that are ok to use pretty much just what the internals and fasteners cost.
Still only just scratched the surface on what parts will be going into it, but if you care to share what other part your refering to?
If its a custom crank girdle instead of the crappy two bolt mains? Yep got it covered already.

I have a question, How you we get the ideas you have in your head onto paper and onto this forum so it's no longer just and idea?? Things like a better crank girdle, etc

[doe]

Was refering more to a bill not a part, but that is going to get off topic again ain't it.....lol


Carry on

Think they missed the clue there.

[Northside 4x4]

Moddedgu - Can you please reword that last post?

[moddedgu]

Moddedgu - Can you please reword that last post?

Please explain???? What do you mean by that reply?

In simple terms how do we see pics or drawings of what you've mentioned in your last few posts!!!!!! Like you said you made some phone calls and in 15mins your supplier has confirmed what you were asking him to get in actual fact are available. Forged pitons, knife edge crank, custom girdles, all of these ideas. I guess my question is can anyone buy these mentioned items or would they have to be made etc.
Is that reworded enough?

[uzdnabuzd]

You can have yourself a a stroker kit with pistons, rods, knife edge crank out of all the good stuff for around $3000 US. YYou can also get 1.8 ratio rockers for massive lift. They will mod the pistons to suit the extra lift. can als buy titanium valves.
I believe the guy designing all this is also designing a new head. He is als using the inline fuel pump that is used on overseas models.

I thought about this for about a week, then i slapped myself and said why in the world would you waste your time and money
I would like to see it done however i would never do it myself.

[fatassgq]

A stroker version of this motor is even less likely to like high reving isn't it?

[Northside 4x4]

Moddedgu - Can you please reword that last post?

Please explain???? What do you mean by that reply?

In simple terms how do we see pics or drawings of what you've mentioned in your last few posts!!!!!! Like you said you made some phone calls and in 15mins your supplier has confirmed what you were asking him to get in actual fact are available. Forged pitons, knife edge crank, custom girdles, all of these ideas. I guess my question is can anyone buy these mentioned items or would they have to be made etc.
Is that reworded enough?

Dont take it the wrong way mate. I wasnt having a dig. Read the first post slowly and you will see, it wasnt worded very well for others to read .

The answer is, the parts are not yet made (as I said, they will be built, not off the shelf). They will be custom forged and cnc parts, so no people wont be able to buy them yet. Once the cnc program has been written for the parts, I could get them remade to exact specs and sell them I guess. I wouldnt think to many people out there would bother with it though, or want to spend the amount it would cost anyway.

I would like to see the shop that builds these parts for the TD42 Uzdnabuzd.
Ti Valves seems a bit extreme for such low revs and valvetrain G's.

[SuperiorEngineering]

For Northside 4x4, this is how i see your build.
Part 1 - think of the engine design ( your doing that now)
part 2 - build engine
part 3 - tune the engine to make the HP and not detonate
part 4 - design truck/ suspension that will put the power down to the ground
part 5 - build a decent driveline
part 6- find a driver that will use the power.
part 7 - finance it all
Part 8- find the time to do the work ( but you are always on the forum so you have spare time )
part 9 - drink a lot
and not in that particular order.
Northside 4x4 you have a long bumpy road ahead of you, good luck and it will be interesting to see how it comes along and when it's all complete how it stacks up against the low dollar builds on the race track.

Podium wins for a race team is the goal , it will be interesting in a years time to see where your engine/race team is placing and how it is holding up.

Good luck .
Mick

[Northside 4x4]

For Northside 4x4, this is how i see your build.
Part 1 - think of the engine design ( your doing that now) - Done years ago, never had the motivation or need to bother until now though
part 2 - build engine - Decided on which block and head today, start porting tomorrow, parts probably a month away though
part 3 - tune the engine to make the HP and not detonate - Easy with a good WM/I Setup and good bar and plate cooler.
part 4 - design truck/ suspension that will put the power down to the ground - Negotiating a partnership at the moment (nothing dodgy though MCA suspension only) http://www.mcasuspension.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
part 5 - build a decent driveline - T400 with GU diff's will cop it easy.
part 6- find a driver that will use the power. - As per P4
part 7 - finance it all -Dont have to finance alot with race gear. Alot of it is sponsorship and suppliers wondering if it can be done.
Part 8- find the time to do the work ( but you are always on the forum so you have spare time ) - Hardest Part with all the rebuilds and upgrades but ill manage. Probably not alot of other shops that spend 12 hours a day in the shop and another 6 on the net researching and helping other people out.
part 9 - drink a lot - Giving up on that one to afford the parts
and not in that particular order.
Northside 4x4 you have a long bumpy road ahead of you, good luck and it will be interesting to see how it comes along and when it's all complete how it stacks up against the low dollar builds on the race track.

Podium wins for a race team is the goal , it will be interesting in a years time to see where your engine/race team is placing and how it is holding up.

Good luck .
Mick

Dont know which race team though? There is to many to keep count of at the moment.
Australian Rally teams? MX5 Circuit team, 1/4Mile team (keep an eye on powerplay this weekend for a nifty blue hilux circa 1980 ), also have 6 cars running at this year's jamboree I have built and tuned,Suppose a 4WD team could add to that

Never really bothered with extravagant stickers, slogans, advertising to show what work we do as I have always done it because thats what I enjoy.
The facts are though, im not interested in drumming up business through race events, which is why I DONT bother stickering and advertising on the cars I build.
I might consider stickering up the race truck we build though. One on the rear window should be enough for the rest of the field to see