Winchin' motor tech on the up

[CrispProducts]

Hi,


I have a couple of questions from a manufacturing point of view, lacking the practical point of view that you guys have.


If I could provide a competitive winch motor to fit warn style 20 spline with these specs, would it go down well in the community:


-12v-48v input (Ideal is 24-36 volt)
- 9kw+ @ 48 volt (Minimum spec is 6 kw @ 36 volt - Most likely spec will be around 7kw @ 24v)
-Full speed control, backward and forward (control board/handle included)
-Fits warn style high mount.
-No motor braking available (Yet!, but with time it will come with motor braking)

Would guys who are serious run 36v+ for a winch @ ~300amps? Or is this just too crazy?

I Can lower the the operational voltage but I am limited to amps unfortunately, 400amps is about the max short bursts my controller can do, with 300amps steady.
(So say we lower to only 24v, I can only rate the motors to around 7kw MAX)

What sort of free-load shaft speed should I aim for if I am to target the higher end of the spectrum? Say for 24v is 5000 rpm considered 'high' speed motor?


Is 20 spline warn input the general input that guys who use higher end winches actually use?


I am only concerned with Aussie winches, I know the blokes O/S use different specs.


Is there anything that you would LOVEEEEEEEEE to see a winch motor have/do or you consider essential?


I hope this technology can benefit your sport guys. My motors have already broken records in other fields, its just a matter of getting things right for you guys!!


I'd be happy to read PM's if you don't want to comment on here!

[Mosko111]

Just a couple questions,
Would the controller be able to be hard mounted in the cab? so driver is able to use it easily as he winches up a hill?

And with the motor is there the possibility of ever being able to run twin motors? side x side or piggy baced with an adaptor between them?

[CrispProducts]

I really don't want to talk about the 'what ifs' of what this can do etc, I more want to discuss what you guys do in setups or what you would find acceptable... If you have a question you can PM me, I don't want to get this thread deleted - That is all. (It will look like I am trying to advertise, which I am not interested in doing at the moment at all - Sorry if that sounds rude but the forum rules are pretty strict around here)


So do you think if guys could get a decent motor to run on 36v, they would actually run 36v? Twin setup would be as straight forward as any twin setup...

[gudge]

99% of comp guys are running the warn 12v 6hp motor/motors @ 24v, so any motor that could bolt up to a high/low mount is going to get some intrest. not sure about the power output of a 12v motor @ 24v and the related amps? Perhaps you could shed some light on it. Does a 12v 6hp motor @ 24v = 12hp ( 8.9 kw) and 370amps?

36v is something that is not very common, perhaps because the warn 12v motors arnt up to it I don't know but if there is any chance to get more power reliably out of your winch then I'm sure you will get A great response. Charging could be an issue with a 36v+ system but I'm sure with a few solenoids you could switch 24 -36.

As far as shaft speeds at 24v, I have no idea.

I guess speed control could have it's place, when lowering the truck off the winch or when in a Nasty rock section, but reliability is king in winch challenges. Electronics and water, dust, vibration don't mix.

I'm really looking forward to the step up in winch motors, I'm sure all it takes is someone with the knowledge such as your self and you could really change the sport.

[CrispProducts]

thanks for pointing that out.... Also appreciate the kind words.

Amps is what is really the limiting factor, I can actually run these up to 50v no worries and crank some serious power...

It will be interesting when these come into test as the efficiency is over 85% for these motors, if spending some serious $ I can get these to around 94% eff out of a production line motor, so comparing a 9 hp warn vs. a 9hp 'crispmods' motor would be interesting... As you can imagine there would be a bit of play on figures from manufacturers of motors claiming '10 kw' from a motor, but is that at 50% efficiency? So a lot of that energy is wasted and its really a 5kw motor and a 5kw heater.

My fingers hurt from the winding of endless coils..



Reliability is king. Check.

I really appreciate any tips

[Snot Rocket]

We will take a free one to trial for you, would fit nicely as our rear mount

[MEGATROL]

hi,
someone correct me if im wrong but i think a standard warn 6hp 12V motor runs around at 1650rpm, so at24V its going to be nearly double im presuming, so if you can build a 24V 7kw (9.3hp) motor that spins higher than say, 3500 you should be on a winner if thats how it works but hey im just a fitter so ill leave the tech stuff up to the sparkys.

gudge if you think we can run 36V then i think we should if we get hold of one of these motors.

so crisp if you are looking for someone to trail these motors Team PISSED & Broke would be very keen to test one of ur masterpieces just PM myself or gudge from above if you interested. we run a worked warn highmount winch with a warn 6hp at 24v at the moment but as always more is better haha

Pickels

[1MadEngineer]

thanks for pointing that out.... Also appreciate the kind words.

Amps is what is really the limiting factor, I can actually run these up to 50v no worries and crank some serious power...

It will be interesting when these come into test as the efficiency is over 85% for these motors, if spending some serious $ I can get these to around 94% eff out of a production line motor, so comparing a 9 hp warn vs. a 9hp 'crispmods' motor would be interesting... As you can imagine there would be a bit of play on figures from manufacturers of motors claiming '10 kw' from a motor, but is that at 50% efficiency? So a lot of that energy is wasted and its really a 5kw motor and a 5kw heater.

My fingers hurt from the winding of endless coils..



Reliability is king. Check.

I really appreciate any tips

what would the actual power rating be on 36v ? (some rough specs would be greatly appreciated) eg FLT, ST and maybe even actual shaft hp (and speed rating), rather than the typical 'electrical power' rating. Its very hard for the average consumer to compare, when they get such widely varied figures from manufacturers. For example - there is little difference in loaded line speed going from a 4.8hp motor on a high mount to a 6hp motor, which displays the similarities of the actual running torque. Sure 36-50v is way cool and quite easy to acheive, but there won't be many that will fork out for a gang of leece-neville alternators and the batteries to complement it.

cheers
Greg

[flexytj]

this motor produces 6.8hp at 5000rpm i would be guessing the warn 6hp would operate in a similar rpm range
as it has higher line speed than smaller motors even when unladen . http://gigglepin4x4-shop.co.uk/epages/e ... Bow%202%22

[85lux]

If i recall correctly, Mal leslie told me in a conversation years ago that a 4.6HP on 12 volt spins to over 10000RPM on the test bench. a 12V 6hp running 24V will be WAY faster than a 4.6. Many comp guys blow up the 6hp warns when run on 24V because the windings cannot hold to the commutator when shaft speeds are high, ie spooling cable in-no load.
High no load speed is very important, nearly as importants as high power over a range of torques(which creates fast winching under loads).
It would be great if your motors could stay together at high speeds.
It would be cool to see dyno results on winch motors....

[1MadEngineer]

any updates / specs ??

[CrispProducts]

Yes, I'm getting somewhere now with these...

Its a matter of only finding a manufacturer capable of producing these, I have a narrowed it down to about 10 companies so far.
The hard part is negotiation.

Also, I've found a method to run these on a higher voltage but overall losses are around 20% due to step up DC to DC conversion.

To give you an idea the motor i made is running between 11-12 kw after losses.
Its the biggest motor I have made and had to make a serious test bench for it, scary scary power.

Its still very early days, so don't expect anything 'off the shelf' for a good 6 months.

[digsy]

Is everything behind this motor going to be able to keep up??

I would've thought with the breakage current winch challenge competitiors have now that this may be getting way past the limit of component failure?

Or do you predict that this mod is only going to be suitable for use with a Gigglepin style winch or other aftermarket (read hand built) winch?

I would have thought the issue you will encounter is torque? Whilst 6hp+6HP 24V combos have plenty of speed - they lack the torque that you will possibly have with this "Built for Purpose" winch motor? Is this going to cause drama's with winch lines?

I only ask because I'd hate to see you invest $$$ and then only get 2 sales when everyone realizes that this would not be compatible with their current 6HP 24V standard hi mount? Or do you believe that this motor will be well suited to that application - cause reality is that this is what most people have on their winch trucks - not Gigglepins.

[CrispProducts]

Put it this way, you get very very accurate control of this motor... There is no 'real' RPM limit to these as long as everything is balanced. I've made tiny ones that spin faster than 60,000 rpm and convert more than 1kw of power after losses.

We'll see what happens, but thanks for the advice.

[digsy]

I wasn't worried about your motors holding up as much as the Winch that it's powering?
Do you think a standard top hat off of a 8274 can handle the increase in load?
Or is this motor only going to be suited to GigglePin Winches?

[1MadEngineer]

here is a bit of real data for you to compare with:
a 8274 6hp pulling full load - 8000lb @ 3m/min first wrap (~100mm drum dia / rope CL) - barring losses.
motor input speed - ~2100rpm
motor TQ input - 8Nm
motor power@input -~1.8-2kw

not rocket science, just physics.

So if you post up motor specs please use approx 2000rpm as the rated speed! Thats why i asked for FLT specs....

Digsy is correct, most of the stock winch drivetrains are only really capable of 8-10nm of input power. This can be manipulated by changing gearing and ratios, often by driving directly into the 2nd section of the planetry input drum, and using a beefy winch like OX, which is based of the hydraulic version.....

[Blackfellablock]

Crisp, Awesome stuff and about time really. Just curious is your motor brushed/brushless or disc, and do you run a ESC. Can see it now single motor lowmount 356:1 beats 8274 Triple motor with +60% gearset.

[Mosko111]

Any new progress with these motors? And been tested in a reall life winch comp scenario yet?

[bushy555]

Talking about ESC's: I've got heaps of second hand 600 and 1200 amp mosfets (between $500 and $800 each when bought brand new) that I'd love to be able to use for an electronic speed controller for a winch setup. They are all just sitting in a box... Were used to control heaps of dirty big 3 phase electric motors.


Found on ebay: 24 volt, 7.2Hp motor for Warn Winch. Specs:
7.2 horsepower at 2300 rpm.
Torque: 11.5Nm at 143 Amps.
Field Hsg OD: 114.3mm / 4.5in
Shaft : 20 spline, OD: 16.6mm / 0.654in

[toughnut]

He hasn't been on here for a while. I still have a message to him sitting in my outbox on here. I guess he either got the info he was after or he didn't hear what he wanted to hear. It would be a fairly small market for such a thing locally at least.

[1MadEngineer]

Found on ebay: 24 volt, 7.2Hp motor for Warn Winch. Specs:
7.2 horsepower at 2300 rpm.
Torque: 11.5Nm at 143 Amps.
Field Hsg OD: 114.3mm / 4.5in
Shaft : 20 spline, OD: 16.6mm / 0.654in

These figures sorto confirm my info.
But 7.2hp is still a fuzzy figure IMO.
As 11.5NM max tq @ 2300rpm = 3.72hp
(HP=TQ ft/lb X RPM / 5252)
and
P=VI
7.2hp (5370w) @24v ~=223Amps