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Project "DAMKIA" - SASed and Lifted Kia Sportage
Moderator: Tiny
Gary, I more than respect what you are doing, but please don't let the facts get in the way of a good story. I believe that any car with a transfer case has lots of potential, but I can detect a fair bit of "enthusiast" in your posts.
"Military vehicle underpinnings" Well, yes, but the australian army used datsun bluebrids too. Most 4wd's have been used for military contracts over the years, and I believe that the reason they have been used in the domestic Korean market might well be due to legislative requirements to use domestic vehicles.
Wheel travel is not articulation for a live axle. I can assure you that a 100 series will have a quite frightening amount of rear articulation, a figure you are not quoting.
Where are you measuring your "travel" from? the wheelarch or the ground? I would be very impressed to see it go 30" up a ramp.
270mm is your ground clearance. Be happy with this figure, it is quite good for a car with 31" tyres on it. as to your 340mm "minimum" figure - I imagine that figure might be about 175mm at full compression assuming that when stock your car has 5" of compression and 5" of droop.
The cars you mention on the suzuki Club trip are puzzling me - Paul Macdonals Hilux has open diffs and Chris's car only has a rear locker. I guess who you are more capable than on a trip just depends on who you go out with.
I reckon that any car is as "real"as any other that has a transfer case, and if we want to go comparing your car ar any others by tape measure your car might look "realer" than many, but there is far more to the whole shebang than specs on paper, and the potential of your car is similar to the potential of my G-wagen- I'm at the peak tyre size for the car, have the maximum wheel travel for a mildly modified car and I am up against the design parameters of the car. I can gear the diffs and have lockers, so my problems are in different areas.
I am happy to accept that I can no longer keep up with the sierras in the club with my G. you can't have everything, and you obviously have a compromise you are happy with, but on the basis of a couple of trips, I think your journey has just begun. I would be a bit careful talking up your car's performance too greatly by comparing them with the cars you have been out with or trips you have gone on.
Steve
"Military vehicle underpinnings" Well, yes, but the australian army used datsun bluebrids too. Most 4wd's have been used for military contracts over the years, and I believe that the reason they have been used in the domestic Korean market might well be due to legislative requirements to use domestic vehicles.
Wheel travel is not articulation for a live axle. I can assure you that a 100 series will have a quite frightening amount of rear articulation, a figure you are not quoting.
Where are you measuring your "travel" from? the wheelarch or the ground? I would be very impressed to see it go 30" up a ramp.
270mm is your ground clearance. Be happy with this figure, it is quite good for a car with 31" tyres on it. as to your 340mm "minimum" figure - I imagine that figure might be about 175mm at full compression assuming that when stock your car has 5" of compression and 5" of droop.
The cars you mention on the suzuki Club trip are puzzling me - Paul Macdonals Hilux has open diffs and Chris's car only has a rear locker. I guess who you are more capable than on a trip just depends on who you go out with.
I reckon that any car is as "real"as any other that has a transfer case, and if we want to go comparing your car ar any others by tape measure your car might look "realer" than many, but there is far more to the whole shebang than specs on paper, and the potential of your car is similar to the potential of my G-wagen- I'm at the peak tyre size for the car, have the maximum wheel travel for a mildly modified car and I am up against the design parameters of the car. I can gear the diffs and have lockers, so my problems are in different areas.
I am happy to accept that I can no longer keep up with the sierras in the club with my G. you can't have everything, and you obviously have a compromise you are happy with, but on the basis of a couple of trips, I think your journey has just begun. I would be a bit careful talking up your car's performance too greatly by comparing them with the cars you have been out with or trips you have gone on.
Steve
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
ARRRGH! Like I said, I have the greatest respect for what Gary is doing, I built up my G with no aftermarket support and listened to heaps of people tell me it couldn't be done, I am wasting my time, it's impossible, buy a hilux, etcetcetc
My issue is that some of Gary's information is a little bit misleading. I think you will find that many of us that have made "negative" comments about the Kia are people who have been on trips with it and are aware of its shortcomings. Many of us have discussed these with Gary. As a package as it stands, It is a competent and surprisingly effective car. It is clearly a little more off road biased than many other cars in its class.
I am aware that Gary would like to move the car more towards being capable of tackling harder terrain. At this point whether the car has been used for military use, what the stock quoted fording depth is are pretty irrelevant. Gearing, lockers, and support are issues that Gary has to overcome.
Maybe I am just an asshole though.
My issue is that some of Gary's information is a little bit misleading. I think you will find that many of us that have made "negative" comments about the Kia are people who have been on trips with it and are aware of its shortcomings. Many of us have discussed these with Gary. As a package as it stands, It is a competent and surprisingly effective car. It is clearly a little more off road biased than many other cars in its class.
I am aware that Gary would like to move the car more towards being capable of tackling harder terrain. At this point whether the car has been used for military use, what the stock quoted fording depth is are pretty irrelevant. Gearing, lockers, and support are issues that Gary has to overcome.
Maybe I am just an asshole though.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
...Where are you measuring your "travel" from? the wheelarch or the ground? I would be very impressed to see it go 30" up a ramp....
All measurements taken from top of the wheelarch to the bottom of the rim. Maximum droop - maximum squash = travel. (Standard method, I am lead to believe.)
...Wheel travel is not articulation for a live axle...
For us "less educated", the difference is...??? Not trying to be a smartass, but you have brought this up before and not elaborated on it.
George Carlin, an American Comedian said; "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realise that half of them are stupider than that".
FEAROZA wrote:wow...takes guts to criticise the guy in the kia. all you people bagging gary sound like assholes. If you've only got negative comments to make then just shut up.
Careful
There are a lot of knockers for sure who can't fathom that it's not a toyota but there are genune technical arguments too like Gwagensteve.
Watch out who you tar with that brush
More power to ya Gary I gave up when faced with a similar uphill battle but as a student I don't really have the resources to do otherwise ATM
Gwagensteve,
One note about my reference to LC front travel. That post was a modified cut/paste from another forum entry discussing the technical merits and disadvantages of coil sprung vs torsion bar IFS. This is why there was no reference to the rear of the LC. I accept that it would have more wheel travel than me.
Been thinking about "travel" vs "articulation"...correct me if I am wrong, but is articulation the the angle described by** arcsine of squash wheel travel/(.5 x track) + arcsine of droop wheel travel/(.5 x track)?, ie the angle of full squash to full droop on both sides when viewed from behind the vehicle? (** corrected maths...too much nightshi(f)t.)
My reference to the trip was too the "Gembrook slip and slide" (in yahell group photos) Chris was my passenger.......
Vehicle stock 90mm squash and 170mm droop, now 140mm squash and 105mm droop, lost a bit of travel due to an extra turn in the front coils (up from 8 to 9 turns).
One note about my reference to LC front travel. That post was a modified cut/paste from another forum entry discussing the technical merits and disadvantages of coil sprung vs torsion bar IFS. This is why there was no reference to the rear of the LC. I accept that it would have more wheel travel than me.
Been thinking about "travel" vs "articulation"...correct me if I am wrong, but is articulation the the angle described by** arcsine of squash wheel travel/(.5 x track) + arcsine of droop wheel travel/(.5 x track)?, ie the angle of full squash to full droop on both sides when viewed from behind the vehicle? (** corrected maths...too much nightshi(f)t.)
My reference to the trip was too the "Gembrook slip and slide" (in yahell group photos) Chris was my passenger.......
Vehicle stock 90mm squash and 170mm droop, now 140mm squash and 105mm droop, lost a bit of travel due to an extra turn in the front coils (up from 8 to 9 turns).
George Carlin, an American Comedian said; "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realise that half of them are stupider than that".
I've also seen the KIA offroad, it's ok for a soft roader with a transfer case. The departure angle sucks but you can work wonders with a 9".
I think that Steve is right, if you talk a vehicle up too much you end up looking like a toss. Best off keeping information simple then prooving what your truck can do in the bush, not on a web page!!
"Cyber-wheeling" seems to lead people into a land of hope rather than reality.
In saying that, a vehicle only has to be as capable as the owner wants it to be. Lets face it a KIA is never going to be a hard core 4x4, but as long as it does what he wants it to do he's happy.
Just don't make out your car will do things that it won't and don't make comparasons from your vehicle to others based on limited offroad expirence.
I think that Steve is right, if you talk a vehicle up too much you end up looking like a toss. Best off keeping information simple then prooving what your truck can do in the bush, not on a web page!!
"Cyber-wheeling" seems to lead people into a land of hope rather than reality.
In saying that, a vehicle only has to be as capable as the owner wants it to be. Lets face it a KIA is never going to be a hard core 4x4, but as long as it does what he wants it to do he's happy.
Just don't make out your car will do things that it won't and don't make comparasons from your vehicle to others based on limited offroad expirence.
[quote="Harb"]Well I'm guessing that they didn't think everyone would carry on like a big bunch of sooky girls over it like they have........[/quote]
ARB is now in possesion of my old front diff/third member for possible modification of Vitara locker to suit, and possible production of lockers for Sportages in the future. Full compliments to them as at least they are getting their Engineering Dept to look at the possibility.
One step at a time...
VitataJim as you are aware the main problem with the departure angle was with the plastic rear bumper. That will be gone in the next couple of weeks, as will the front bumper. This so-called "soft roader" has a better low first ratio than the Vitara and more clerance to the chassis rails (ramp-over), so what does that make the Vitara???? (and in the shortbody version when lifted, a departure angle not far from yours.)
One step at a time...
VitataJim as you are aware the main problem with the departure angle was with the plastic rear bumper. That will be gone in the next couple of weeks, as will the front bumper. This so-called "soft roader" has a better low first ratio than the Vitara and more clerance to the chassis rails (ramp-over), so what does that make the Vitara???? (and in the shortbody version when lifted, a departure angle not far from yours.)
George Carlin, an American Comedian said; "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realise that half of them are stupider than that".
GaryInOz wrote:ARB is now in possesion of my old front diff/third member for possible modification of Vitara locker to suit, and possible production of lockers for Sportages in the future. Full compliments to them as at least they are getting their Engineering Dept to look at the possibility.
One step at a time...
VitataJim as you are aware the main problem with the departure angle was with the plastic rear bumper. That will be gone in the next couple of weeks, as will the front bumper. This so-called "soft roader" has a better low first ratio than the Vitara and more clerance to the chassis rails (ramp-over), so what does that make the Vitara???? (and in the shortbody version when lifted, a departure angle not far from yours.)
Gary .. stop taking this crap personal ..
It will still be a soft roader due to lack of locking diffs and gearing .. The vit has the option of both in the way of Airlockers, lockright's and detroits ez-lockers as well as gears in the diffs ranging all the way down to 5.8X's and 4:1 geared T/Case's .
If you did that kind of work to any of the small 4x4's you could have alot of fun, personally I would have not bothered with a KIA sportage for several resons, namely smallish wheelwells, and huge rear overhang.
But so long as your having fun .. it's all good
" If governments are involved in the covering up the knowledge of aliens, Then they are doing a much better job of it than they do of everything else "
antt wrote:stick with the kia gary, sas it like the guy on pirate, then chop it into a ute to fix the rear departure angle, that'll piss off the nissan and yota drivers
at least this thing has wheeled recently, unlike a lot of posers and web-wheelers that seem to inhabit this board nowadays
Already pissed off a LC and a RR by going up Camp Rd near Diaper Rd in LCMP
The vid is definite proof...........George Carlin, an American Comedian said; "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realise that half of them are stupider than that".
I have been in contact with ARB HQ regarding the possibility of a front air locker for the front of the Kia Sportage.
This is the email I have recieved from them:
------
Hi Gary,
I have your diff sample and I will have it measured to put through our database to match it against current designs.
The fact that you claim the spline to be Ø27 x 28 tooth suggests that this is a spline that we have not previously tooled up for.
Unfortunately the tooling to cut a side gear spline is a very expensive unit that we have custom made for us overseas, which means that a diff model would have to represent a significant number of sales in order for us to break even on the upstart costs.
In other words, you may need to find several KIA mates willing to commit to a purchase.
I'll keep you posted on what I find.
Best regards,
daniel
====================================================
Daniel J Bongard (MEng)
====================================================
Engineering Supervisor
ARB 4x4 Accessories, AUSTRALIA
http://www.arb.com.au
Email: dbongard@arb.com.au
Tel: +61 (3) 9761 6622
Fax: +61 (3) 9721 9415
====================================================
How many people are interested, with the possibility of a rear locker to follow? Please Email GENUINE enquiries to the above email address as they need numbers of definites (no "dreamers" please) to establish the financial viability for them.
Sorry for the multiple postings, but trying to get the news around to as many people as possible.
More info:
http://www.4x4wire.com/forums/showflat. ... =7&fpart=1
Regards
GaryInOz
This is the email I have recieved from them:
------
Hi Gary,
I have your diff sample and I will have it measured to put through our database to match it against current designs.
The fact that you claim the spline to be Ø27 x 28 tooth suggests that this is a spline that we have not previously tooled up for.
Unfortunately the tooling to cut a side gear spline is a very expensive unit that we have custom made for us overseas, which means that a diff model would have to represent a significant number of sales in order for us to break even on the upstart costs.
In other words, you may need to find several KIA mates willing to commit to a purchase.
I'll keep you posted on what I find.
Best regards,
daniel
====================================================
Daniel J Bongard (MEng)
====================================================
Engineering Supervisor
ARB 4x4 Accessories, AUSTRALIA
http://www.arb.com.au
Email: dbongard@arb.com.au
Tel: +61 (3) 9761 6622
Fax: +61 (3) 9721 9415
====================================================
How many people are interested, with the possibility of a rear locker to follow? Please Email GENUINE enquiries to the above email address as they need numbers of definites (no "dreamers" please) to establish the financial viability for them.
Sorry for the multiple postings, but trying to get the news around to as many people as possible.
More info:
http://www.4x4wire.com/forums/showflat. ... =7&fpart=1
Regards
GaryInOz
George Carlin, an American Comedian said; "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realise that half of them are stupider than that".
antt wrote:stick with the kia gary, sas it like the guy on pirate, then chop it into a ute to fix the rear departure angle
at least this thing has wheeled recently, unlike a lot of posers and web-wheelers that seem to inhabit this board nowadays
Was that Dave Scotts' (fledgling666)?
Try here for more info.
George Carlin, an American Comedian said; "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realise that half of them are stupider than that".
GaryInOz wrote:antt wrote:stick with the kia gary, sas it like the guy on pirate, then chop it into a ute to fix the rear departure angle
at least this thing has wheeled recently, unlike a lot of posers and web-wheelers that seem to inhabit this board nowadays
Already pissed off a LC and a RR by going up Camp Rd near Diaper Rd in LCMP
That's nothing to talk up,my white 'unlocked',standard zook on highway tyres did that.
Mandy
GaryInOz wrote:antt wrote:stick with the kia gary, sas it like the guy on pirate, then chop it into a ute to fix the rear departure angle
at least this thing has wheeled recently, unlike a lot of posers and web-wheelers that seem to inhabit this board nowadays
Was that Dave Scotts' (fledgling666)?
Try here for more info.
yep
1 kia sportage was sold last month according to Vfacts (Current issue of Just 4X4's) I do not fancy your chances with ARB. If the spline count was the same, I would be taking things into my own hands rather than waiting for ARB. A member of the club has been waiting for a coil sierra front airlocker for about 12 months, and that only requires a small spacer to be designed in.
In any case, why does anyone have to "piss anyone off" with their cars? If you can drive your car well, more power to you.
As I have said, any car can do "surprisingly well" with the right driver. I woudn't be at all pissed off if someone with a chopped up car outdrove my predominantly stock G wagen. I might be well pissed off if someone in a stockish XYZ outdrove me in my G, (which is why I am back to working on my Zuk
)
In other news, how does chopping a car into a ute make it more capable? (other than a slight reduction in weight?)
In any case, why does anyone have to "piss anyone off" with their cars? If you can drive your car well, more power to you.
As I have said, any car can do "surprisingly well" with the right driver. I woudn't be at all pissed off if someone with a chopped up car outdrove my predominantly stock G wagen. I might be well pissed off if someone in a stockish XYZ outdrove me in my G, (which is why I am back to working on my Zuk
)
In other news, how does chopping a car into a ute make it more capable? (other than a slight reduction in weight?)
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
Gwagensteve wrote:1 kia sportage was sold last month according to Vfacts (Current issue of Just 4X4's) I do not fancy your chances with ARB. If the spline count was the same, I would be taking things into my own hands rather than waiting for ARB. A member of the club has been waiting for a coil sierra front airlocker for about 12 months, and that only requires a small spacer to be designed in.
In any case, why does anyone have to "piss anyone off" with their cars? If you can drive your car well, more power to you.
As I have said, any car can do "surprisingly well" with the right driver. I woudn't be at all pissed off if someone with a chopped up car outdrove my predominantly stock G wagen. I might be well pissed off if someone in a stockish XYZ outdrove me in my G, (which is why I am back to working on my Zuk
In other news, how does chopping a car into a ute make it more capable? (other than a slight reduction in weight?)
The last year of manufacture of the Sportage was 2002, so they have been on a runout since early 2003. There is considerably more of them in the USA (since 1995) and Europe (since 1996) than there are in Australia (late 1997), granted, but ARB are a global company who are prepared to at least look at the prospect with an open mind on broader market prospects than just Australia.
Regarding "pissing off" the vehicles that came down that slope, the attitude that they presented was silenced without words being spoken from me, despite their obvious verbal disbelief that I could not/would not make it up. I concede that they made it up relatively easily, but using every mechanical modification at their disposal to do so.
Regarding chopping into a ute, I agree with you. I doubt whether I would do that, as the weight bias is already 54% front : 46% rear and I probably need more weight over the back wheels for traction, or just forwards of them rather than less weight.
George Carlin, an American Comedian said; "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realise that half of them are stupider than that".
Regarding "pissing off" the vehicles that came down that slope, the attitude that they presented was silenced without words being spoken from me, despite their obvious verbal disbelief that I could not/would not make it up. I concede that they made it up relatively easily, but using every mechanical modification at their disposal to do so.
If this is still in regards to Camp Road, no-one really gave 2 hoots.
U didn't "piss anyone off", u drove it......................
and.........ur point is......
Mandy
Quote:
Already pissed off a LC and a RR by going up Camp Rd near Diaper Rd in LCMP The vid is definite proof...........
Gary, didnt u bust your front diff driving it.
could hardly say, thats doing it ezy.
Mock
Already pissed off a LC and a RR by going up Camp Rd near Diaper Rd in LCMP The vid is definite proof...........
Gary, didnt u bust your front diff driving it.
could hardly say, thats doing it ezy.
Mock
My photographic Art http://www.redbubble.com/people/ljxtreem
www.dirtcomp.com.au
Sierrajim wrote:
So hurry up, come back, buy a Lada (can't believe i just said that) and we'll go wheelin'.
www.dirtcomp.com.au
Sierrajim wrote:
So hurry up, come back, buy a Lada (can't believe i just said that) and we'll go wheelin'.
ljxtreem wrote:Quote:
Already pissed off a LC and a RR by going up Camp Rd near Diaper Rd in LCMP The vid is definite proof...........
Gary, didnt u bust your front diff driving it.
could hardly say, thats doing it ezy.
Mock
It happened late in the morning Saturday, just prior to lunch, and I did manage to drive the rest of the day and half the following morning before the noise was very audible....... I guess I should have said it most likely started then. BTW I never said it was easy (83Lux spotted for me, thanks Scott), just that it was worth it for the look on the LC's face........
In reality any of the other tracks could have contributed/started the damage, as was a "little predicament" I found myself in during the night run (lost in the dust and went down the "difficult" line of a track that no one else went down). 18" high, jagged granite rocks down hill for about 50'- had to back out backwards uphill in the dark with no spotter
. Lots and lots of wheelspin from the front, again being stopped due to gripping on the granite.George Carlin, an American Comedian said; "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realise that half of them are stupider than that".
Gary why do you care what anyone else thinks? If you have fun driving/modifying your Sportage then good for you.
If you just talk it up on a website as someone has already said people immediately think your a bit of a wanker. I don't know you at all but that is what it looks like. Just enjoy your fourby.
A well driven stock 4x4 will get places that others won't in modded 4x4s as is commonly said on this site and others. I've driven tracks in my mostly stock Rodeo that others have said not to even try but I doubt they were pissed off. Surprised maybe but I doubt very much they cared too much. However even a Rodeo can get off the shelf diff locks, lifts, gearing, bars etc
No one neds to justify themselves for choosing the vehicle they did and it gets annoying when people constantly do. As it just makes you look like your trying to play catchup to everyone else.
If you just talk it up on a website as someone has already said people immediately think your a bit of a wanker. I don't know you at all but that is what it looks like. Just enjoy your fourby.
A well driven stock 4x4 will get places that others won't in modded 4x4s as is commonly said on this site and others. I've driven tracks in my mostly stock Rodeo that others have said not to even try but I doubt they were pissed off. Surprised maybe but I doubt very much they cared too much. However even a Rodeo can get off the shelf diff locks, lifts, gearing, bars etc
No one neds to justify themselves for choosing the vehicle they did and it gets annoying when people constantly do. As it just makes you look like your trying to play catchup to everyone else.
Land Rover Discovery series 1 V8
bigsteve wrote:Talk down by the riverside is patrol diffs
C'mon Gary fess up.
Ok, 'fessin up with a "Cheezy" grin...............
Could be about 6-12 mo away (money x lots).
So if you hear of anyone with some GQ's for sale.........
George Carlin, an American Comedian said; "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realise that half of them are stupider than that".
Will I get hit over the head for posting a pic I took of your rig Gary?
Taking into consideration that my GV's gone through 2 front diffs and diff housings in the past year (ie. spent most of the last year in 2wd as a result), I quite enjoyed watching the Kia "get up stuff" without breaking diffs
Taking into consideration that my GV's gone through 2 front diffs and diff housings in the past year (ie. spent most of the last year in 2wd as a result), I quite enjoyed watching the Kia "get up stuff" without breaking diffs
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WaveCult wrote:Will I get hit over the head for posting a pic I took of your rig Gary?
Taking into consideration that my GV's gone through 2 front diffs and diff housings in the past year (ie. spent most of the last year in 2wd as a result), I quite enjoyed watching the Kia "get up stuff" without breaking diffs
Ooohhh, I broke a diff last year in LCMP, so you're not quite correct.
Stripped the teeth off both side gears, both spider gears, knocked a couple of ring teeth out, chipped two pinion teeth and cracked the hemisphere in two places (from the dowel to the edge of the hemisphere -same both sides). Good job by most accounts...............
George Carlin, an American Comedian said; "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realise that half of them are stupider than that".
GaryInOz wrote:
Stripped the teeth off both side gears, both spider gears, knocked a couple of ring teeth out, chipped two pinion teeth and cracked the hemisphere in two places (from the dowel to the edge of the hemisphere -same both sides). Good job by most accounts...............
Wow Gary, that is a lot of damage for a car with "Military vehicle underpinnings" and "strong enough to mount missile launchers on" with only baby mud terains!!!!
Sorry mate I just couldn't let that one pass
Peter.
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