XRCC Round 3

[RUFF]

So who won

Stage 1- Budgie (Tony Robinson/Wes Clifford)
Stage 2- Budgie (Tony Robinson/Wes Clifford)
Stage 3- Budgie (Tony Robinson/Wes Clifford)
Stage 4- Lockless (Sam Overton/Mick Garner)

Round 3 Outright Winner- Mogrover (Mick Garner/Sam Overton)
2nd- The Hotrod (Rod Dirte/Scott Henry)
3rd- Budgie (Tony Robinson/Wes Clifford)

2004 Outright series Winner- Lockless(Sam Overton)

[GRIMACE]

orsum watchin the last bonus stage, was suprised at how easy they made it look.

And Ruff, honestly how farken unlucky were you to have that farken wire come loose then get it started and went up so easily with the front locked

THE MOG ROVER WAS ORSUM Well done Mick and Sam and the rest of the crew.

And again Dave in the Hilux the things you get that lux up is just incredible

Metcalf seemed abit pushy on the day but we got to hand it to him for continusly puttin up with all the crap that comes and goes with organising comps and the like WELL DONE.

this spectating shiznit is getting addictive just watching you guys crashing through the obstacles is orsum, and Rods twin boulder climb for shits n giggles after he failed the bonus round was

The food and ALCOHOL was well setup heaps of shiznit to choose from
I gotta get back to work as there is a pile of shit on my desk.

[jimmyb]

sorry i didnt make it along, went skydiving for my 30th

[Aza]

So who won

Stage 1- Budgie (Tony Robinson/Wes Clifford)
Stage 2- Budgie (Tony Robinson/Wes Clifford)
Stage 3- Budgie (Tony Robinson/Wes Clifford)
Stage 4- Lockless (Sam Overton/Mick Garner)

Round 3 Outright Winner- Mogrover (Mick Garner/Sam Overton)
2nd- The Hotrod (Rod Dirte/Scott Henry)
3rd- Budgie (Tony Robinson/Wes Clifford)

2004 Outright series Winner- Lockless(Sam Overton)

how come u won on 3 stages, but came third over all, even if u DNF shouldnt u still have at least came second? r they scored the same way or similar to that of PUOSU?

[POS]

So who won

Stage 1- Budgie (Tony Robinson/Wes Clifford)
Stage 2- Budgie (Tony Robinson/Wes Clifford)
Stage 3- Budgie (Tony Robinson/Wes Clifford)
Stage 4- Lockless (Sam Overton/Mick Garner)

Round 3 Outright Winner- Mogrover (Mick Garner/Sam Overton)
2nd- The Hotrod (Rod Dirte/Scott Henry)
3rd- Budgie (Tony Robinson/Wes Clifford)

2004 Outright series Winner- Lockless(Sam Overton)

how come u won on 3 stages, but came third over all, even if u DNF shouldnt u still have at least came second? r they scored the same way or similar to that of PUOSU?

NO NO and NO

PUOSU uses the CALROC rules from the USA, which are completly different!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Strange Rover]

how come u won on 3 stages, but came third over all, even if u DNF shouldnt u still have at least came second? r they scored the same way or similar to that of PUOSU?

Tony DNFd one stage 10m before the last gate. That DNF cost him 100 penalities. Those 100 penalities cost him more than his total penalities on the three other courses combined.


Ive said it before and Ill say it again the way the scoring works at XRCC with the DNF penalities is absolutely rediculious IMO and its killing the competition.


Sam

[Aza]

would u be able to explain what xrcc rules r for those who dont no

[POS]

Yes i agree!

It is one thing to say that the best team MUST finish all stages, but this is not nessesarly the case!

It is very hard here in Australia to be able to build a UNBREAKABLE rig! The Mogrover is the closest to this and thats why it wins these events and will keep winning these events!

Ask Sam which vehicle is more Capable out of the Mog and the Lockless, there is a reason he drives the Lockless!!!

If it comes down to who ever finishes ever stage wins then so be it, i will take the easiest line threw knocking over as many cones as i need to get threw without putting the vehicle into a position that will break something!

I watched Tony drive on Saturday and he was so smooth and clean in fact he was making the stages look silly, the mogrover was scracting its arse of and really was strugling. I heard Sunday was the Same except Ruff Broke with TWO gates to go!!!!!!

So did the BEST TEAM win???????????

(no offence to Mick and Sam)

Unfortunatly until the FORMAT is looked, this will not change. It will continue to Get peoples back up and piss them off (which is not good for the sport), think about how Ruff must feel. He won PUOSU and rightly so, he is Australia's Steal Horse Cowboy and was proving so yet again, until he poped a CV which sent him back to 3rd spot! If i was him, I would be PISSED!!!!!

[Strange Rover]

would u be able to explain what xrcc rules r for those who dont no

Fairly simple -

10 penalties if you hit a cone
1 penality for taking a reverse
50 penalities per gate that you fail to progress through if you DNF

Event conducted over 4 courses with each course generally having between 6 and 14 gates.

I believe that this system of scouring doesent work well because in most XRCC competitions we would have about 80% of the field DNFing at least one course which gives them an absolutely stupid amount of penality points.

In this type of event the chance of a competitor DNFing at least one stage through breakage is very high. Its high for the competitors in very competitive rigs and its still high for competitors that arnt in very competitive rigs. The failure of the XRCC scoring system, IMO, is that it doesent reconise the high probablity that most of the competitors will break and DNF a course.

Basically the way it works at the moment is that competitors that break early an any course come last, competitors that break towards the end of a course finish in the middle and those competitors that dont break finish in the top placings. It doesent matter how good a rig is and how well it negotiates the courses if it has an unlucky break early in a course you will finish behind a rig that takes out every cone in every course.

When we are all driving million dollar rigs with million dollar axles that never break then this scoring system will work fine. But when that day comes I dont want to be a part of it because its the bloke that can turn up with a couple of welded hilux axles that can beat a bloke with million $$ d60 axles that makes this type of event what it is.

Sam

[beebee]

its the bloke that can turn up with a couple of welded hilux axles that can beat a bloke with million $$ d60 axles that makes this type of event what it is.

Sam

I'd like to see that

I think/hope that the course design may change next year. Considering that nobody drove the bonus at Round 2 but more than 50% drove it this round, it shows the development in the sport.

Looking forward to the next round

[Strange Rover]

IMO the correct placings for this event should have been Tony 1st, probably Beebee second closely followed by Rod and Mick. I should have been up there somewhere as well but basically I didnt give a fark what happened after I got the 600+ penalities.

In summary the scoring system has been the downfall of XRCC since its inception at round 0. XRCC would of have about 4 different goes at trying to get it right and it still isnt there IMO.

Sam


PS - And POS you are wrong to think that the Mogrover wasnt the most capable rig there at driving over that sort of terrain. There wasnt one time throught the entire competition that the mogrover even looked like it was struggling. For that sort of terrain you will never go past something that has got 5in portals and 42in tyres and the strength to never break. The only thing that the Mog had trouble with was the pissy little cones that IMO have absolutely nothing to do with a vehicles capability.

[XTREME MMM]

Just a few things on the scoring. Yes the best team won. It was bad luck for Tony, for he had a great drive all weekend except for that course.

Even if the 2 gates that he had failed to get through were worth only 10 points each he would have beaten Mick in the Mogrover by a whole 2 points (and he drove the complete course), & some of you are saying that would be fare?????????????????????? And even using those same gate penalites, with the bonus gate Mick got over & Tony failed so Mick Sam & the Mogrover still would have won.

As for the way the vehicles got over the bonus gate easily it was not because the vehicle build up or driving skills have got any better (they are great now).

THE REASON WAS THERE WAS NO WATER !!!!!

Yes the point scoring will always be a point of interest, it will vary depending on the event, PUOSU (I will be corrected) would tend to be a lot of short quick courses where as XRCC will be a longer course requiring more "trials type driving" so the point system would be different again. I don`t think that pointing someone out is the answer either, because what happens when someone points out at the last gate & the rest of the field points out half way through, do they both end up with ZERO? So this would mean that the Team that has gone the furtherest has not been rewarded for his effort. Does he end up with the same score as the Team that got to the first gate??

Anyway between all of us we might come up with a system that will work here under our conditions better then copying all of what is used in the states.

I WOULD LIKE TO THANK TONY FOR LETTING ME DRIVE HIS GREEN MONSTER OUT OF THE GULLY. IT WAS GREAT, PITY IT WAS NOT LONGER.


Regards David (MMM)

[harfkut]

sounds like all you blokes should sit down
over a cold beer and talk about a format
that would encorage more competiters
and more spectators to the sport and then
make it happen

[Strange Rover]

There is no denying that with the current XRCC scoring system that the best rigs always finish in the top placings - they always have.

What I believe the issue is how the lesser rigs are delt with. Basically if you DNF anything mid course you may as well pack your bags and go home because there isnt any possible way that you can make up the deficite. How can we expect teams to travel long distances and spend lots of money to come to a competition where if they have an unlucky break then they are totally out of the whole competition.

Here are some examples of some of the scoring extremes that we had at this event (now these scores are from my memory and arnt exact).

Tonys 1st stage - about 15
Beebees 1st stage - about 17
My first stage - about 600+

Tonys 2nd stage - 7
My 2nd stage - 8
Mog 2nd stage - 12
Rods 2nd stage - 10

At the end of the 1st days competition the top rigs were all on totals of less than 30 points. I was on 600+ and Wes was on 1400+. Wes and my self should have just packed our bags and went home, for us the competition was totally hopeless. No matter what we did we couldnt improve our positions because we were just so far behind in the points race. Remember a reverse is worth 1 point and a cone is worth only 10 and we were both over 600points behind the rest of the competition.

When Beebee had a simple CV break on the 3rd stage he somewhat joined us and gained over 400 penality points by breaking after the 1st gate. He was actually alot luckier than myself because the course that he broke on only had about 6 gates in front of him where as in my DNF the previous day the course had about 13 gates - so I get 600+ points and Dave gets 400+ points. I guess it doesent really matter anyway how many points we got from our DNFs, because in a game of 10 point cones and 1 point reverses, when you get a penality of 400+ points it is the same as as getting 600+ points, is the same as getting a million points. I actually had steering issues on the same course that Beebee broke and DNFed at the same point - thinking about it now, I probably could of struggled through that course but basically at the time I just couldnt give a flying fark about the event so I just went and parked my shiat.

So at this point all the top competitors were pointing very low and very close when Tony breaks a CV and DNFs 2 gates from the finish (he actually took the cone on the second last gate and finished 10m from the finish) so he gets 100 penality points. So you might think - hey that isnt so bad cause he broke and he should get penalised. At the point before Tony broke he was probably winning the competition by about 30 points so the breakage put him well behind the rigs that hadnt DNFed any courses (which were the Mick in the mog and Rod)

Then at the end of the day we had a bonus course that comprised of only one gate. Now if you drove that gate you recieved 150 points bonus off your penality score. The 150 points is more that the total driving penality points (as in cone and reverse penalities - excluding DNF penalities) of any rig at the competition. Basically that bonus gate was worth more that the whole rest of the competition combined (that is unless you DNFd something)

So how did the results pan out. Well the Mog didnt DNF anything and it drove the bonus so it won. Didnt really matter how many cones it took out or how many reverses it had because by not DNFing anything and driving the bonus it could have taken out a cone on every gate on every course and it would have still won. BUT LET ME TELL YOU - The mog is a massive machine, its 112in long and 2.3 metres wide and Mick and myself absolutely workes our a$$es of to not hit any cones and take as few as possible reverses as we absolutely had to. On the courses on Saturday the little buggies were driving around in less than 8 minutes. In the Mog we would take over 25 minutes to do the same course and we would do less reverses but would hit an extra cone than the buggies because at the Mogs width it was just impossible for it to manouver through. I believed we deserved the win.

Now Rod drove extremely well. Actually had a few less penalities than the Mog overall but he wasnt able to drive the 150 point bonus so again Rod probably could have hit every second gate on every course and still placed 2nd.

Now Tony like I said was in front up until he broke and he also had ignition problems on the bonus stage so he also didnt get the 150 point bonus. So basically his incredible effort and driving skill to take out 3 of the 4 stages was a total waste of time. If he had known he was going to cop the 100 point DNF penality and not gotten the 150 point bonus he could have just driven over all the canes he wanted. It was a shame really but I guess Tony was fairly lucky because he only had trouble on the last 2 stages so that it didnt effect his earlier performance in the competition which was incredible to watch. Im sure if Tony had broken first up like myself he wouldnt have driven anywhere near as well.

Beebee was almost more impressive than Tony in how Dave and Greg were able to manouver their daily driver 120in wheelbased Hilux around the cones. He was right up there with the top placings until he broke and got 400 penalities. Dave was able to drive the bonus stage as well and got the 150 point bonus points but that didnt really matter cause he was already 400 points behind. It also didnt matter that he probably only hit 4 cones total for the whole weekend cause those 40 points didnt really mean much after he got the 400 point DNF penality.

And the rest of us - well we were in the 1000 penality point plus club and it really didnt matter what we did cause we were just wheeling for the fun of it. Im happy to say that the Lockless absolutely ate the bonus stage - probably drove it easier than anybody alse. I got a lucky bounce on my secont attempt (actually my first attempt wasnt really an atempt it was only just a bit of a feeler) and just threw the strap to Mick and we crawled up. Actually just thinking about it those 150 bonus points would have almost pulled us under the 1000 point barrier so maybe it was worth while after all. Maybe I should check up with Dave.....

But seriously it really was a good event with lots of new terrain on Saturday and a great finale with BJ climb as the bonus stage last thing on Sunday.

I just think that the points need to be looked at and there are points systems already out there that work very very well for this type of event. We dont have to invent anything new for our Australian conditions we just have to use what everybody else is using for this style of competition. This points system has had a slow and progressive evolution over the last 20 years and works awesomely well at determining the best rigs while promoting agressive and exciting driving which is exactly what the crowd wants to see and what this sport needs. The scoring system is that one that UROC uses which is slightly different to the one that we used at PUOSU (we used the Calroc rules) Basically the major difference between the two is that the UROC rules work better on the longer more technical courses.

Sam

[big red]

some pics here...... http://www.4wdlinks.com.au/gallery/XRCC-rd3-2004
i didnt take many with my camera as i was too busy videoing

added some more pics
still more to do yet

[humphey]

i think sam is pretty rite on the score'n .mite give me a chance to try and catch up to them i can dream it is hard to drive a full bodie rig through some of the corses . some gates u have to reverse a couple of time's to get through with out hittin a cone . i spose thats part of the fun .

[Strange Rover]

some pics here...... http://www.4wdlinks.com.au/gallery/XRCC-rd3-2004
i didnt take many with my camera as i was too busy videoing

added some more pics
still more to do yet

Got flex

[beebee]

:)


Anyway between all of us we might come up with a system that will work here under our conditions better then copying all of what is used in the states.

So lets stop complaining and sort it out for the good of the sport. Anybody suggest a time and place?

[beebee]

i think sam is pretty rite on the score'n .mite give me a chance to try and catch up to them i can dream it is hard to drive a full bodie rig through some of the corses . some gates u have to reverse a couple of time's to get through with out hittin a cone . i spose thats part of the fun .

I'm with you

[1MadEngineer]

Sam - very well said!

It was another fantastic event, the courses were a really pleasent change, as i am sure most will agree. The highlight for me was lockless eating BJ's climb and the budgie driving around with RUFF not even raising a sweat.

But the commoradary between competitors still shines and i suppose that is what brings us all back each time, well done guys. The level just keeps gettin better, those NSW guys better get there $hit together if they are goin to keep up, the Haultek Crew are near unstoppable.

As for the points system, i hope we all get a chance to sit down soon over a beer (or 20) and sort it out.

[-Mandy-]

Well done to all the competitors.

Mandy

[POS]

:)


Just a few things on the scoring. Yes the best team won. It was bad luck for Tony, for he had a great drive all weekend except for that course.

Even if the 2 gates that he had failed to get through were worth only 10 points each he would have beaten Mick in the Mogrover by a whole 2 points (and he drove the complete course), & some of you are saying that would be fare?????????????????????? And even using those same gate penalites, with the bonus gate Mick got over & Tony failed so Mick Sam & the Mogrover still would have won.

As for the way the vehicles got over the bonus gate easily it was not because the vehicle build up or driving skills have got any better (they are great now).

THE REASON WAS THERE WAS NO WATER !!!!!

Yes the point scoring will always be a point of interest, it will vary depending on the event, PUOSU (I will be corrected) would tend to be a lot of short quick courses where as XRCC will be a longer course requiring more "trials type driving" so the point system would be different again. I don`t think that pointing someone out is the answer either, because what happens when someone points out at the last gate & the rest of the field points out half way through, do they both end up with ZERO? So this would mean that the Team that has gone the furtherest has not been rewarded for his effort. Does he end up with the same score as the Team that got to the first gate??

Anyway between all of us we might come up with a system that will work here under our conditions better then copying all of what is used in the states.

I WOULD LIKE TO THANK TONY FOR LETTING ME DRIVE HIS GREEN MONSTER OUT OF THE GULLY. IT WAS GREAT, PITY IT WAS NOT LONGER.


Regards David (MMM)

Dave,

The PUOSU rules were modified slightly. One of the major changes was the removal of progression Points!! These were left out just to make it a easier for the transition to short stage driving!

The rules for the next comp will be identical to the Calroc rules. They have a progression score, meaning that if you break with 1 gate to go you are still rewarded slightly for what you have done, and if you break early you get a lot less!!!

[humphey]

that sounds like the go pos

[XTREME MMM]

Very, very quick one.

With the scoring:- Cones 10points, reverse 1 point, stacking 10 points per gate, Spotter assistance 2 points per gate (all the same as before) By- passing gate 40 points winching 30 points. You will point out at 40 but receive 2 points back per gate that you have got through.

Etc:- 10 gates you get 25 penalty points but you get back 20 points for the gates Total Score 5 points.

Next competitor points out after clearing the 6th gate, so his score would be 40 less the gates passed 12 beings Total Score to 28 points

Next competitor only gets passed 2 gates so his Total Score would be 36 points.

This is similar to UROC. The reason for stop penalities not being there is I find it is very hard to police fairly, so a DNF time will be set in future & if you DNF you will get 40 points less gates passed. If you do not want to run course you will be pointed out which is 40 points, plus a possible extra 20points.

Looking at this there is no way a competitor can beat anyone who goes the furthest.

As the Series is now finished it is time to do next years Rule Book. So how do you feel about this. This is a perfect "KISS" (Keep It Simple Stupid) scoring system.

This has more then likly been used before, but as I am getting old & a bit slow it has taken me time to catch on. Or it could be no one has been able to explain it to me correctly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Regards David (MMM)

[Strange Rover]

Actually that looks really bloody good.

I think that we did have a half arsed attempt to explain something like this although we really hadnt looked at the progress points setup. I guess we were wanting lots of really short courses (like the PUOSU) where progress points arnt really necessary but with the longer trials format of XRCC I can really see that the progress points are going to work incredibly well.

It will reward those that complete the courses and still keep everything nice and tight points wise.

Looking at it a bit more on a 10 gate course the best sombody can get do will be -20 (zero penalities less 10x2 progress) and the worst sombody can do will be the 40 penalities if they DNF at the first gate. So the max difference will be 60 points which is good.

It will work really well even in splitting up the competitors who drive a course well and then DNF and those who struggle ad then DNF. Sombody who is having lots of trouble and is taking lots of reverses and cones will point out (DNF) earlier in the course and recieve less progress points of their total of 40 than sombody who does better and progresses further.

This is gunna be good!!

Sam

[1MadEngineer]

Dave, that sounds awesome, well done i am sure that will work heaps better and the only problem now will be everyone driving their assses off to get better scores. can't wait till the series return

[POS]

Dave,

Its good that you have taken note of all the comments that have been thrown around, and now hopfully we can create a better comp from this!

Since there are no other XRCC comps until next year (new series) how about we do a trail run of this new format just to make sure it works!!!! Nothing would be worse than starting the series next year than half way threw the first comp realising that something doesn't work!

Just a thought!

It also allows everyone to get together and throw around ideas for stage design and layout, than you can also get a full understanding of what these Machines can and can't drive!

Just another thought!

[big red]

AWESOME

good to see the organisers and competitors working together to better the sport

[big red]

the rest of the pics are up
http://www.4wdlinks.com.au/gallery/XRCC-rd3-2004

[Midget]

MMM
Nice work,I like the fact that this format should keep the scores nice and close,Make everyone really think about what they are driving.
And as for what POS said about a trial run, I think this would be a great idea to sort out any little bugs.
And just as a suggestion can we make the courses like super hard next year for the buggys anyway.(More big ledges to drop off and lots more huge side angles.)
Lets really put these buggy's to the test...

IMO

Jamie