Legalality of modifications

[cbr]

Chris

The States are able to specify their own vehicle road safety rules in conjunction with the ADR's hence WA has the Road Traffic Vehicle Safety Regulations (1977). They can specify whatever they want and even internal policy can apply while a proposed law is being examined. You can get a copy from the State Law Publisher for a fee

I have read this (Road Traffic Vehicle Safety Regulations (1977)) but it does not state anywhere I can find a height restriction or tyres size limit?? So Does that mean policy (which I believe the 2" rule is) can be enforced even if it has not legislation to back it up ???

Others have indicated the lane change test is easy so it seems your truck would have to be a real dog not to pass. There's no way to circumvent this so I would suggest you get it done before they wake up !!!!

I have heard the opposite, looking at this spreadsheet http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/sagecom ... r/Lane.xls it looks quite hard. If you want flexiable suspesion I think you will need to run rollbars on the road. I dought my runner would pass when it was original!!!

I spoke to an engineer the other day and he believes that my 4runner will not pass with the lift I have. He quotted $3000 to get the test done

I am not trying to circumvent these test, just trying to understand is the DPI have the right (legally) to stipulate these tests and enforce these limits. To me if there is no legeslation then they can't do it. I am just trying to find the legislation. I think a vehicle that is to be used for rock crawling (with decent flex) would not pass this test.

Who have the guys you know done the lane change test with??? What engineer??

The main issue I have is that I got my 4runner registered with a v8 and 2.5" body lift back in 1996. The guys at the engineering department (Reno and another guy) actually drove it and then they stamped it off and I had to go over the pits again. At the time I had 35" BFG's and about a 3-3.5" suspension lift (I currently do not have this amount of lift, as I have dropped the suspension lift to 2" and cut the BL to 2"). This was not noted on the modification forms because it was not a problem in 1996. Height and tyre size had no limits (as long as it stopped) in 1996. After all the reports about the 2" lift restriction I contacted the DPI and they stated back in 1996 my 4runner was legal but now it is illegal, as they put it "the goal post have moved"

Also the guys I was going to get the lane change test done have stated that they are not doing them anymore because they believe what DPI are requesting is not law and therefore does not have to be done.

It will cost me a about $1000 to do a lane change test, but I want to do other mods before I do it, otherwise every suspension change I will be up for $1000.

[cbr]

Was just reading more carefully through the WA form (only ever glanced at it previously) and it seems as though its written in a way that assumes you've already completed the modifications??? Yet its an application form for modifications ie

This application is to be used by any person wishing to modify a vehicle for which prior approval
must be obtained from Licensing’s, Technical Section.

Examples of the way its written

If the seats have been altered from original equipment explain changes.

[quote]Has the vehicle body been modified? ô€

[cbr]

http://notes.nt.gov.au/dcm/legislat/legislat.nsf/0/8fd9ee44ea33367869256d1a000b3c86/$FILE/Repm020R7AVSR(NT).pdf

Thanks I have briefly read this and it does not stilupate any height restrictions apart from head light and tail light heights.

Chris

[cbr]

The ADR will not specify a max tyres size but changing a tyre will alter things such as

ADR 13/00 Light layout - height of lights
ADR 14/02 Rear view visibility, The seating reference point will have changed therefore retest need to confirm acceptable are (category specific)
ADR 18/xx - Instrumentation. Vehicle odometer and speedometer may not be within the required accuracy range.
ADR 24/02 - Tyre placard may not match replacement tyres and inflation ressures will have to be recalculated.
ADR 28/01 - External noise. Tyre roll out is specified in this test along with exhaust height. Both have been change so full test to confirm compliance
ADR 35/00 or 35/01 Compliance with brake regulations - vehicle height is changes along with centre of gravity (this rule has a lane change requirement) hence stability has changed and the vehicle is no longer representative on the vehicle that was test initally.
ADR 62/XX - height and location of towbar
ADR 42/XX - coverage of wheel arches, proximity of mudflaps to road, coverage of full tyre section, exhaust outlet height,

I'm not saying larger tyres will cause the vehicle to not comply with these regulations but the burden of proof is now on you, not the original manufacturer. The ADR will require the rim and tyre to be an approved combination and the tyre to meet the speed and load rating requriement relevant for the vehicle.

This is just an example of how many ADR's can be affected by something as common as a wheel change. These regulations can not be read independently. You need to have a good understanding of both the state and federal regulation to be aware when a regulation is not being complied with.

But as long as the mods meet ADR's and an engineer will sign off on it, it should be OK???

What are people geting registered in VIC and NSW?? Can a 4x4 get registered with 37" or 38" tyres??? Do they have limits?? Are they required to do any test for engineering ????

Chris.

[auto_eng]

Just because you are meeting the ADR doesn't mean you can go ahead with the mod. The state regs still take precedence.

It's a bit of a catch 22. If you were to recertify the vehicle as a new vehicle at a federal level you can do what you wnat but you have to recertify the whole vehicle to all ADR's which could run into the 100's of thousands.

If you were to certify at a state level you have to jump through their hoops.

[cbr]

Just because you are meeting the ADR doesn't mean you can go ahead with the mod. The state regs still take precedence.

It's a bit of a catch 22. If you were to recertify the vehicle as a new vehicle at a federal level you can do what you wnat but you have to recertify the whole vehicle to all ADR's which could run into the 100's of thousands.

If you were to certify at a state level you have to jump through their hoops.

That makes sense. But can the states make rules that do not have legislation?? How can one state have more laxed laws then others ??

Chris.

[cbr]

Has anyone done a lane change test in WA?? What engineer did you use???

[bogged]

How can one state have more laxed laws then others ??

Look at Qld compared to the rest.. they are tighter than a nuns Cookie.. compared to Vic and NSW.

[bogged]

It will cost me a about $1000 to do a lane change test

FUCK A DUCK! Mine cost under $300 in Vic...

[cbr]

It will cost me a about $1000 to do a lane change test

***** A DUCK! Mine cost under $300 in Vic...

And that's not including engineer, this is just the lane change test

Chris.

[bogged]

It will cost me a about $1000 to do a lane change test

***** A DUCK! Mine cost under $300 in Vic...

And that's not including engineer, this is just the lane change test

Chris.

what if you got it done in another state, then transferred to WA? road trip to NT or SA could be cheaper!

[bogged]

Bogged, was your lane change test conducted at 110km/h??, this is what is required is WA. Have a look at this http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/sagecom ... r/Lane.xls This was sent to me by the WA 4x4 association. Apparently a stock jeep could not pass this test. People who have done them are saying they are building the suspension for the test (ie hard) so it passes and then softening up the suspension.

Couldnt tell u, he grabbed the keys and car and took off.. But he was haulin when he came back past us the 4th time...

Building hard then changing is going to cause issues.. firstly cost.. secondly whats the fine if caught, and again you will have no insurance if it aint roadworthy

[bazooked]

hey chris when lane change tests were first introduced, the coppers tried a of the factory floor nissan navara 4x4, they put it on its side in the first test, so wat makes u think any 1 else has a chance?, as for the 2" lift rule including tyres was discussed at a club for a numerous amount of meetings, even though it hasnt passed in the legeslation area the coppers can still enforce this as a rule.from memory there has been about 7 or 8 vehicles that have passed tis lane change test with hthe aid of very short travel shock absorbers, dog bones which r rubber blocks that go between the coil springs to stop any movement in the springs, so all this leads me to believe that these vehicles are not being properly inspected, if at all by the people runnin this circus, also an approved registered cams driver has to drive ur vehicle.with all this bullshit goin on ive been happily drivin my sprung ova zook for more than 2 years as a daily driver with no dramas at all. so i say screw them all.

[cbr]

hey chris when lane change tests were first introduced, the coppers tried a of the factory floor nissan navara 4x4, they put it on its side in the first test, so wat makes u think any 1 else has a chance?, as for the 2" lift rule including tyres was discussed at a club for a numerous amount of meetings, even though it hasnt passed in the legeslation area the coppers can still enforce this as a rule.from memory there has been about 7 or 8 vehicles that have passed tis lane change test with hthe aid of very short travel shock absorbers, dog bones which r rubber blocks that go between the coil springs to stop any movement in the springs, so all this leads me to believe that these vehicles are not being properly inspected, if at all by the people runnin this circus, also an approved registered cams driver has to drive ur vehicle.with all this bullshit goin on ive been happily drivin my sprung ova zook for more than 2 years as a daily driver with no dramas at all. so i say screw them all.

This is what I mean there are plenty of 4x4 out there that people are not going to get engineered because there is no hope in hell of passing. If the laws where like NSW then I believe alot of 4x4 would actual get engineer properly.

So what are you meant to do??? forget about having a legal off-road 4x4 and build a unregistered 4x4. The problem is that up to date all our comps require regestered 4x4

Chris.

[stuee]

hey chris when lane change tests were first introduced, the coppers tried a of the factory floor nissan navara 4x4, they put it on its side in the first test, so wat makes u think any 1 else has a chance?

I always wondered what standard vehicle was that rolled it. Heard about it plenty of times but no one could tell me what it was . Whatever you do don't go with adjustable shocks as I hear they set them to the lowest setting. I was thinking a possible way to get through is get some real stiff arse shocks for the test and change to another brand later. As far as I'm aware, changing shocks does not require an eng cert. . If the vehicle fails, prehaps you can rig up some swaybars with quick disconnects???? After reading a recent book on suspension, roll overs are not directly related to body roll, although body roll contributes, moving the centre of mass over the base which combined with all the cornering forces makes the car roll. Basically you need the axles to be as wide as possible and have the centre of mass as low as possible.

I don't think its worth the risk of running around unregisted. You could really end up in some deep twadle. If you have an accident at someone elses fault, and the other party finds out you are not legally registered you're going to be stuffed.

That makes sense. But can the states make rules that do not have legislation?? How can one state have more laxed laws then others ??

Welcome to the world of delegated legislation (see, I did learn something in p&l in year 12 ). This is how many a gov't gets the legislation they want without actually having to get it through parliament. The State gov't delegates their power to the DPI or whoever and then any rules or regulations they make pretty much stand as law. Like council regulations and that kind of cr*p.

[cbr]

People say QLD is tough, but I think WA has the toughtest laws regarding 4x4 mods

Chris.

[daddylonglegs]

I can forsee a mass exodus of Aussie 4wd enthusiasts moving to the good ol USA in the near future. It seems almost anything is legal over there.

[bogged]

I can forsee a mass exodus of Aussie 4wd enthusiasts moving to the good ol USA in the near future..

Dumbest comment of the year.

Lets sell everything we have, move to live with the largest pack of psychos on the planet, run by the worlds biggest moron just so we can run 33's....

Yayyyyyyyyyyyyyy...

[duncan]

I think Chris that in the long run lots of people are going to go down the path that im doing at the moment thats by a smaller or older vehicle mod the hell out of it and either solid tow it or trailer it.As to comps I bought mine with liecence because the rules are so lacks ,last night owl i believe the rules were that the car had to be registerd no magor oil leaks front and rear tow points no home made bull bars as towing points roll cage for soft tops and helmets to be worn .No were did it state that the vehicle had to be road worthy or beable to pass a lane change test so as long as its still registerd i dont see how they can exclude you play by there rules .

[murcod]

http://www.lovells.com.au/catalogue/200 ... ngs_v2.pdf

Page 5 of the above catalogue has some info from ADR's on suspension height changes- might be of use to someone.

[daddylonglegs]

[quote="bogged"][quote="daddylonglegs"]I can forsee a mass exodus of Aussie 4wd enthusiasts moving to the good ol USA in the near future..[/quote]
Dumbest comment of the year.

Lets sell everything we have, move to live with the largest pack of psychos on the planet, run by the worlds biggest moron just so we can run 33's....

Yayyyyyyyyyyyyyy...[/quote]

yes they may be all those things, but the Americans take their civil liberties very seriously, and for better or worse they have a bit more freedom than we do here in certain areas, particularly vehicle mods, which is what this thread is about.
Bill.

[ozrunner]

Chris

The States are able to specify their own vehicle road safety rules in conjunction with the ADR's hence WA has the Road Traffic Vehicle Safety Regulations (1977). They can specify whatever they want and even internal policy can apply while a proposed law is being examined. You can get a copy from the State Law Publisher for a fee

I have read this (Road Traffic Vehicle Safety Regulations (1977)) but it does not state anywhere I can find a height restriction or tyres size limit?? So Does that mean policy (which I believe the 2" rule is) can be enforced even if it has not legislation to back it up ???

Also the guys I was going to get the lane change test done have stated that they are not doing them anymore because they believe what DPI are requesting is not law and therefore does not have to be done.

Chris, the easy answer to these questions is to ask the same Engineers to show you a "written Law" that allowed you to put a V8 in your 4Runner ??

I stand corrected but as I understand it there is none other than engine conversions etc are an allowable "policy" providing certain parameters are met. Body lifts were the same but now the "policy" to have a lift approved requires a lane change test. No way around it.

But I do agree there seems to be many interpretations etc and hopefully the likes of the 4wd Association are working on this for a clearly defined set of goal posts. Give them a call.

As far as the V8 4Runner I test drove it handled like a dog but it passed. The guy indicated it was done at Wanneroo. Recently I spoke to another dude that had a big lift approved and he was given the option of driving it himself or a CAMS dude. He said it was super easy so there maybe some inconsistencies in setting up the course and it may depend on who you get.

If the rule is going to be 2" max including tyres etc then I may also fall into this but I will wait until it all becomes clear and there are some clearly defined goal posts.

JD

[cbr]

Chris, the easy answer to these questions is to ask the same Engineers to show you a "written Law" that allowed you to put a V8 in your 4Runner ??

JD

You have a point here. I am not sure what I am going to do. I might retire the 4runner and build something else???

Chris

[cbr]

I think Chris that in the long run lots of people are going to go down the path that im doing at the moment thats by a smaller or older vehicle mod the hell out of it and either solid tow it or trailer it.As to comps I bought mine with liecence because the rules are so lacks ,last night owl i believe the rules were that the car had to be registerd no magor oil leaks front and rear tow points no home made bull bars as towing points roll cage for soft tops and helmets to be worn .No were did it state that the vehicle had to be road worthy or beable to pass a lane change test so as long as its still registerd i dont see how they can exclude you play by there rules .

Are you going to flat tow it or use a trailer your zuk??

Chris.

[Wendle]

reading stuff like this really makes me glad i stopped bothering with modified registered vehicles.

chris, i think you will be suprised at how well your truck will handle the test. when i did mine (2 years ago now) the powers that be wanted it done in a worst case scenario (incase the car was stolen and driven hard was their logic) so shocks set to the softest setting and loaded to GVM - 14 bags of cement in the back of a SWB nissan!
scared the shit out of me, but it passed.

[bogged]

Chris, the easy answer to these questions is to ask the same Engineers to show you a "written Law" that allowed you to put a V8 in your 4Runner ??

JD

You have a point here. I am not sure what I am going to do. I might retire the 4runner and build something else???

Chris

That maynot be a good idea, can he revoke an engineers cert? or report it as mods have been done since he engineered it to make it a dodgey ...?

[cbr]

So can 37's on a hilux get legal in nsw or vic ??? What size rim ??

Chris

[daddylonglegs]

I have seen quite a few badly built and dangerously modified cars, trucks and 4wd,s over the years, so I agree that there should be some regulatory controls over what modifications you can and cannot do, but the authorities should, possibly through the 4WD associations be made to maintain some perspective. For example, It is perfectly legal for a car or 4wD to tow a caravan or tandem trailer to the maximum gross combination weight specified by the vehicle makers. but how on earth can such outfits comply with the lane changing swervability tests that the Road Traffic Authority expects lifted 4WD,s to survive. Much the same thing can be said for almost every load carrying commercial vehicle on the road.
I am not saying Dont do the tests, but the standards applied should cover every possible vehicle combination that are currently deemed acceptable by the authorities.
Bill.

[Wendle]

For example, It is perfectly legal for a car or 4wD to tow a caravan or tandem trailer to the maximum gross combination weight specified by the vehicle makers. but how on earth can such outfits comply with the lane changing swervability tests that the Road Traffic Authority expects lifted 4WD,s to survive.

this is a good point.
that illegal, lifted 4wd is even higher when it is sitting on a trailer 500mm off the ground.
i tow with a v8 ford ute that would handle as good, or better, than most vehicles out there with a substantial tow rating, and there is no way that it would even come close to pullng off the lane change test with the loaded trailer behind it.

when i did the lane change test in my maverick it was explained to me that the reasoning behind the test was "if you come over a hill at 110kmh and a car has just pulled onto the road doing 10kmh you need to be able to avoid the collision safely"
now this is fair enough, i had no argument with that. but if i was in that car that pulled out doing 10kmh i would much rather be hit by the modified vehicle than a loaded semi trailer, or an 80 series or rangie with 3-tonne of horse float/caravan/car trailer behind it, or any of the other large vehicles that, quite obviously, could never be expected to pass the lane change test being used to certify modified vehicles.

[bogged]

So can 37's on a hilux get legal in nsw or vic ??? What size rim ??

I dont think so.. Have heard of 2 GQs and an 80 series being laughed at for asking, so dont see why a lux would be different.