109" series / 1 ton - any in oz ?

[F'n_Rover]

has anyone seen any of these around ?

http://landrover.vlothuizen.nl/show/list/2020-2.html

[GURU]

never came to OZ.

AWSOME rig though

I believe it has the big ENV diffs front and rear. Big 900 R16's. had lift like Army Landy's with drop mounts and extended shackles

[ISUZUROVER]

never came to OZ.

You sure about that GURU? I thought some of them made it here.

The IIA one-tons had ENV (similar to US eaton) diffs front and rear (same as the IIB forward control). But the SIII had Salisbury diffs front and rear. I don't think many of the SIII FC's were made though.


EDIT

This is a front Sals from a SIII one-ton
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachme ... 4638&stc=1

[Nick (in the Falklands!)]

Can't access the 'pirate' link....but guess its same as the ones we have.

A couple of factory-built 1-ton style 109"safaris came down here (before the 1-ton itself was evolved)....one of them belonged for many years to my uncle who owned a neighbouring farm....We have it now, stashed away a-waiting some TLC/restoration. (It does'nt have the heavy axles, just like the very early IIA F/C's did'nt....)

We built our own 1-ton out of gathered up bits & used a tweaked 2 & 1/4 diesel with extractor exhaust in it, for many years with a standard frontend(..finally aquiring a new Salisbury frontend from a big dealer in UK to complete it but I've yet to finish the re-rebuild..!!)

It ran 900x16 Michelin XCLs & we had a Lock-Right in the rearend, so it ws very capable, quite long in legs on road, & the exhaust made a hell of a difference to the little engine....maybe 20% more power coupled with a wing mounted intake.

[GURU]

You sure about that GURU? I thought some of them made it here.

None offically came here from what I know...but there is always exception from the rules.

Nick, have you got any pics of your 1-Ton's ?? very interested[/quote]

[Nick (in the Falklands!)]

Hi Ben...

I have'nt any digital pics.....will have to try & take some....

( The pickup's easy to extract, but the safari's stuck behind a stack of sheep feed...!! )

However, you can just see it a bit in this pic of the ambulance we moved on last year....

[Loanrangie]

Quite a collection you have there, aircraft wings and all!

[Nick (in the Falklands!)]

...I know... ..its shocking...!! (I never throw anything away...
...can't walk past a skip on the sidewalk either....!! )

( The wings are off a 172 father used to run,....went arse over head with a gust of wind up the tail one day returning from a flight...right outside the hangar...
...Cost an arm & a leg to repair...had to have a new fin & rudder too...)

More pics shortly..

[Nick (in the Falklands!)]

Right, here we go....

[Nick (in the Falklands!)]

& the rest..

[ISUZUROVER]

Great pics Nick.

I am interested that you said there is plenty of room for the salisbury. I am planning to squeeze one into the front of my x-mil (1 ton chassis) 109" IIA with a 2.25D (and extractors).

Does it have standard bump stops with the 1.5" steel spacer in between the bump stop and the chassis like the military models with the same chassis? I am a bit woried that I will have trouble fitting the salisbury in mine, because I have a late model diesel with the 1" aluminium baffle plate between engine and sump, and heaps of suspension travel (no longer have the metal bump stop spacers) so that - with the current rover axle - on full compression on the drivers side the flange of the front prop rubs one of the sump bolts.

I don't suppose you have a front salisbury dismantled so you can give me axle/halfshaft lengths?

[F'n_Rover]

thanks nick for the photos.

are the swivel assemblies the same as a standard series or are they like the 101 beefier units ? also do you know if they run uj or cv's??

also any one who's up with the oz regs ......

as the 1 ton came factory fitted with 36" rubber, does this mean its legal for a standard series to run such without engineering approval?

i would assume if they were imported this would be so, but what if none were brought into oz???

[ISUZUROVER]

thanks nick for the photos.

are the swivel assemblies the same as a standard series or are they like the 101 beefier units ? also do you know if they run uj or cv's??

also any one who's up with the oz regs ......

as the 1 ton came factory fitted with 36" rubber, does this mean its legal for a standard series to run such without engineering approval?

i would assume if they were imported this would be so, but what if none were brought into oz???

AFAIK the S111 one-ton ran the same CV joints and swivels as the Stage 1 V8. The SIIA one-ton had uj's I think.

Generally the rules are that you can upgrade a vehicle to an alternate specification offered for the same vehicle if it only involves bolting stuff on and off. So if you have a military SIII you could, in theory fit a one-ton front salisbury (and brakes) and all helical T-case without engineering, and then run 36" wheels since the truck is now the same spec as a one-ton.

The problems with this are:
If no one-tons ever made it to OZ then it may not be recognized as an optional model.
You can't get a genuine one-ton sals (without spending $$$$ and importing) - so you would have to build an axle and get that engineered.
You can't get a helical (one-ton) T-case easily, so you would need to fit lower ratio diffs or an LT230 T-case to get low enough ratios.

[Tdi200]

A friend of mine has both types, cv jointed and normal UJ salisburies, the swivels are the same as normal series 3's. In fact the weak point is the UJ, it breaks if you wheel hard! Cv's are the same as stage 1 V8, that version is supposed to be stronger.

He still has to install it to the vehicle to replace the uj version with the cv version. The axle has been fitted to a series 2 military variant with extended shakles. It fits normally with no major mods, the only thing needed is a shorter prop shaft. He had bought the CV unit brand new from the UK a few years ago! big money! To much to justify the cv joints IMO!

Grem

[DaveS3]

You can do it, but it really needs engineering though.
HybridLR (NigelG) has hs truck engineered on Q78 Super Swampers...
This was so as Daddylonglegs (Bill) proved that the one - ton used the same hubs or somthing and he had upgraded the breaks to disks.

I plan to get mine engineered one say with the Q78s.

Dave.

[ISUZUROVER]

You can do it, but it really needs engineering though.

As I understand it popeye has an ex-mil SIII 109. So in theory if he had a genuine complete front axle from a one-ton, and a helical T-case, and bolted both of them in, in QLD at least, engineering would not be required. I spoke to an engineer (approved mod. inspector) in QLD about this, and he said that as long as it was bolt in and all major components (brakes axles, etc) were the same as a one-ton, then it wouldn't need engineering.

Of course if you are doing this conversion on anything other than an ex-mil IIA or SIII 109", then it needs engineering. And if you are using other than genuine one-ton bits to do the conversion it technically needs engineering as well.

[F'n_Rover]

i wouldn't think the transfer case would come into the equation.
( nothing structual or safety oriented )

also if the hubs/swivels are the same why would it matter what diff was fitted?

109mil and 1 ton brakes are the same - 3" X 11" servo assisted.

springs and chassis the same ???



any way this is how i would argue it in court.

[ISUZUROVER]

i wouldn't think the transfer case would come into the equation.
( nothing structual or safety oriented )

also if the hubs/swivels are the same why would it matter what diff was fitted?

109mil and 1 ton brakes are the same - 3" X 11" servo assisted.

springs and chassis the same ???



any way this is how i would argue it in court.

It could be argued that gearing is a safety issue - the one-ton has different high and low gearing. Best to play it safe and talk to an engineer to make sure everything is 100% legal.

[DaveS3]

The thing is that there will be some other minor point on his vehicle that he has changed that should require engineering...
So at the point you may as well get it placed on the list even though it is 'Legal'.

Either way - at least its written on the piece of paper if it all goes Fubar....

Anyway - its possible.

[1tonsoup]

I believe 1-tons (at least those with ENVs) had a chamfer/trimming of the front crossmember to clear the ENV diff, even with the bump stop spacers. I don't think this is present on my military chassis but can't be sure as I haven't seen a 1-ton in person. Maybe Nick can identify the chamfer for us?

The Sals diff is a pretty big lump as well so I would imagine that whatever is needed to clear the ENV would be needed for the Sals as well.

The other thing is that the 1-ton and military 3/4 tonne chassis are not entirely the same and from their names, do not appear to have the same rating either.

Seamus.

[F'n_Rover]

seamus wrote :

The other thing is that the 1-ton and military 3/4 tonne chassis are not entirely the same and from their names, do not appear to have the same rating either.

i dont think the names mean jack. the 3/4 ton S3 oz millitary 109's have a 1400kg max payload capacity

hopeing your wrong about the chassis.

[ISUZUROVER]

seamus wrote :

The other thing is that the 1-ton and military 3/4 tonne chassis are not entirely the same and from their names, do not appear to have the same rating either.

i dont think the names mean jack. the 3/4 ton S3 oz millitary 109's have a 1400kg max payload capacity

hopeing your wrong about the chassis.

I am 99% sure both chassis are the same. The only difference is AFAIK all one-tons had the 6cyl motor and all SIIA military Landies in OZ had a 4cyl petrol.

The payload rating is related to the drivetrain, axles and the springs, not the chassis.

[lexi]

Nick
Any more details on your "tweaked" 2.25 diesel?
Alex

[Nick (in the Falklands!)]

Hi guys..

Just to muddy the water a little more here....(!!)

As far as I know from the 4-cyl(UK) military models, they do NOT have the same front brakes as the 1-Ton...

11" they are, yes, but 2&1/4"... ...something like that..? (& they are the same on the SIII Hi-Cap..)

The 3" ones seem to be on late IIa 1-Ton, IIB F/C, SIII 6-cyl, 1-Ton & Stage 2's... & of course, cylinders/shoes shared with all the oddballs like the 101", 110" 'Lightweight' gun tractor, amphibians etc...

Also.... There are two breeds of 1-ton gear/T-box....(!!)

The helical-cog one was developed for the IIB F/C......apart from the 'heavier cog' claim, it was supposed to facilitate range-changes 'on-the-fly'......(..total crock IMHO..!!) Our IIB has this T-box & it certainly needs care changing both ways....you never do it with main box in nuetral.

The earlier one had lower Hi-ratio ( 1.53:1)than standard box of the day (1.148:1), & lo is lower still (2.92:1 as opposed to 2.35:1) ...to compensate for the 900's...?? Its not really a stump-pulling difference...

The helical one was stepped down further in lo to 3.27:1 combined with 1.53:1 hi)
...& you can notice a difference..!! When we broke the layshaft on the F/C, her old '6-pot happily drove it up moderate hills in lo 4th to get it home..

To fit a 1-Ton t/box to a gearbox, you also require the corresponding mainshaft section to feed into it...its much beefier, & tho you can run a 1-Ton PTO on it, it won't take an overdrive...

True early 1-tons did'nt have assisted brakes, or the lower geared steering as fitted to IIA & IIB F/C's & later 1-Tons (The first 1-Tons also had the set-in headlights...)

The 1-Ton designation differentiated from the 3/4 Ton largely in the area of springs & dampers, plus of course the tyre ratings.
The chassis both have the long shackle mounts/dumb irons, & notched No2 X-member(for front propshaft), plus the enlarged chassis bushes for the front spring shackles (tho early IIA's did'nt).

This extended shackle option was available from the factory very early in the II/IIA production for fitting of desert tyres etc...& of course, it's this same chassis configuration with 4-cyl motor that the 'Pink Panther' LRDG vehicles, some Belgian-order safaris (..& this one of ours too..??) were derived from.

I am only aware of the front X-member being dimpled on the IIB F/C to clear the ENV diff from the 6-cyl with the cab above it...hence the IIB also being 110" w/b....they just made the dumb-irons longer...& this pulled the axle forwards an inch...!

However, I have never managed to crawl under an ENV-axled IIA 1-Ton to examine that detail....but I'll remember to ask or look when I get the chance...But the salisbury, tho big, is a hell of a lot better shape to clear things under there than the ENV...especially with a 4-pot... Even the one with the baffle plate (WHERE did you find that...?? Been searching & searching..!!)
BUT you have to have that special big U-bolt that goes on the diff shoulder....or cut 2 in hook shapes & weld them side by side...& shackle plate needs holes elongated with a jigsaw & file.

Bump stops, yes they are standard now; we did have aeons on rear but it killed them, & we do have the extension blocks on them. ( Should still be available fom Craddocks in UK...?) (They can easily be replicated with RHS & long bolts...the real ones have big 'oles through the middle, fill up with shit & water....& rust the chassis & bumpstop plate..!)

Theoretically then, I beleive that theres no real re-engineering gone into the 1-ton.....Its another 'bitsa'......& having pulled a IIA F/C to bits (to get the body for the IIB..) ...it was relatively easy to transplant mechanicals to create a replica 1-ton ourselves..

The opportunity will arise in a few weeks to get some pics scanned & I will find some of when we first did ours..it did look like the brochure one..!!

Our Salisburys are both u-jointed ones, sorry, neither are in bits at moment, & yes, the swivels are all standard stuff, only the tie rod is kinked to clear the diff head.

Our long-term plan had been to change the 4.7 diffs on the pickup to a set of 101" 5.56's to get even more towing pull.....I doubt we'll ever go that far now...

Alex, there's nothing really flash about the engine, the one in the pics is a rebuilt 5-bearing...not yet tried out, but it came out of a working vehicle.
We had a 3 bearing in it that had been bored to the max (40 thou..?) in 1981, ran like a bag of nails afterwards until 1984 when a cousin of mine went through it & set the timing with the head off....& got a whole cam cog tooth-worth of slack out of the drive setup from what the book showed...

That wee engine never had a spanner on it again until we took it out in '02, other than oil changes & a set of injectors combined with a pump twist before the manifold went on...

The 4-into-2-into-one principle really does work....I dont buy this idea that the mass-producing market touts, that 4-into-one is just as efficient.
I'm not a trained engineer, but even I can work out how continuous exhaust suction is created in the first one & the latter would only have an expansion box effect at the joint ....(rather than a turbulent conflict of flow as in a manifold..)
Also, apart from reducing underbonnet resonance, the wingtop intake meant it always breathed 'colder' air than that under-bonnet, on the intercooler principle..

Oh...as it got older too, it just used to 'fade' a bit....must have done some awesome hours (as opposed to your miles)....& it loved a snort of
additive in the tank....it used to think it had been lent a turbo..!! (The higher the cetane no. the better the burn I guess..!!) The opportunity arose to get the 5-bearing, so I bought it. Then we had a trailer jackknife which led to a 'new' tub being needed, brakes needed renewal & the new axle arrived.....We used to have a bloke fulltime then & we got 1/2 way thru & he moved on ...& I've been chasing sheep around ever since..!!

One day I'll finish it... (sorry..this post got a bit long did'nt it..?)

[ISUZUROVER]

Even the one with the baffle plate (WHERE did you find that...?? Been searching & searching..!!)

Thanks for all the info Nick. As for the baffle plate engine, I was just lucky. When I converted my x-mil IIA from a 2.25P to a 2.25D I bought a reconditioned 1977 long motor (0.040" oversize pistons, etc) that was left over surplus when a mine closed down. A mate had a buggered (dropped pre-combustion chamber) 1979 model 2.25D complete with all ancillaries and linkages (and a good pump and injectors) and that had the baffle plate fitted. I had never seen one before that. Both are 3brg - I am pretty sure OZ never got any 5brg engines.

[ISUZUROVER]

Nick
Any more details on your "tweaked" 2.25 diesel?

I am not Nick of course but I have "tweaked" mine as well with good results:

The first thing I did was to fit extractors.

The rest are pump mods:

Firstly, if you have a SIII model with the butterfly valve (to create engine vacuum), unbolt the butterfly valve section, throw it away (fit a 12V vacuum pump if you need vacuum for brakes).

First check that your timing is 100% spot-on.

On the main body of the pump is a large nut. When you remove it you will find a plunger and 2 springs (one inside the other). This controls the rate of pump advance (advance curve). Remove the inner spring and fit a softer one the same length (some people I know have simple removed the inner spring completely but I didn't) - I seem to recall the original inner spring was 1.3mm wire and I replaced it with one the same length from 0.8mm wire. If you want more performance you can also machine down the plunger, but if you are doing this it is a good idea to get a spare one and only machine it down 0.5mm at a time. Machining the plunger can increase the smoke slightly, so it is best to do it until you have a good balance between smoke and extra power (depends on emissions regulations where you live).



The next mod requires you to take off the 2 bolts shown in the picture and remove the cover over the linkages. This allows you to adjust the fuelling. From menory (a bit hazy) there is a plate with 3 holes and a spring with 3 positions (or something like that) - giving a total of 9 possible linkage combinations (8 when you discount the existing setting). I cannot remember exactly what I changed, someone would have to post a pic of the factory linkage settings, but essentially, you can make ONE change (remember to write it down) then see what the performance is like, and keep going until you have found the best setting - remember to document every change so you know what you have done.

Each modification (apart from plunger machining) takes a few minutes with the pump in-situ and there is no need to bleed the pump afterwards (although it is a good idea to bleed the linkage chamber).

[Nick (in the Falklands!)]

Thanks for the interesting info on how to properly 'tweak' a pump Ben, thats most interesting.....could be useful for dealing with the various Perkins motors we have...! (..The one in the Hi-Cap has never heard of the Kyoto agreement, it makes a 'getaway screen' when you accelerate..!)

Those baffle plates...I've only ever seen one engine fitted with one down here; it was a 5-bearing diesel, & I honestly thought it was a slightly noisy petrol at idle first time I heard it....it had the diesel knock & clatter taken right out of it......& it did'nt increase very much when driven....the cab noise remained at about 3-bearing petrol levels.

Interesting stuff....

[ISUZUROVER]

The CAV DPA pump (2.25D) is harder to tweak than a lot of other pumps. Most japanese diesels just have 2 screws to adjust - one for fuelling and one for advance. I think the CAV DPM (2.5D) pump is like that too, and the Bosch VE (Tdi) pump is pretty simple to tweak too. What pumps are fitted to the Perkins diesels?

The baffle plate certainly makes a difference (especially at idle), but it is still noisier than the 2.25P it replaced.

[Nick (in the Falklands!)]

The Perks have CAV DP-? Series too...I'll have to have a look & see what the suffix is...
(Some have an earlier design with no electric solenoid port, the one in the Eager Beaver's like that; the 50-Series one has obviously been set up for it in earlier life, but in the L/R, its been set up for manual operation...)

[lexi]

Great stuff guys. Ben where would I be able to get a 12v pump to replace manifold servo on my 2.25d. Can`t think of a source for that in
UK. It`s quirky how you guys call them Rovers.A Rover is a saloon car