OZ Rock minimum weight requirement

[DamTriton]

or a points system based on weight could be introduced to complicate things even further

Wheelbase, track, tyre dia, weight, into some sort of formula.

[greg]

my suggestion is that the driver has to stay in the rig, and, we either remove the spotter all together and make it all about the driver... or, we ban the spotter from touching the vehicle (this would include teathering)... doing this will mean that the vehicle can only progress on the track using its own traction.

I can see where your coming from here, but from a new spectators point of veiw on this sport, i enjoy watching teams sit there smoking there expensive tread while the spotter holds the strap and rocks it back and forth making the obsticals that i originally viewed as impossible, possible.

I know spectators are not the major concern here but we are a part of this sport,

i believe also banning the spotter from touching the car is not as benifical for example at WE rock round 2 i don't believe N.A.M. would have been able to flip his buggy back to its wheel by himself there for he would not have been able to complete the stage, and roll overs are apart of rock crawling...

just my few cents worth

if a car rolls over, i hasn't driven the course. i reckon give that car a DNF right there and then. rolling a car back onto its wheels when running on the clock (i.e. when being timed) is just asking for trouble... i think it will only be a matter of time until a team does this and has the car roll over them... the same is true of having a spotter with a teather - it isn't unusual to see the spotter get dragged down a rockface, or get very close to the wheels when they are spinning madly hunting for traction.

a spotter pulling a car over something is cool, but i think you'll agree that watching a car drive something unassisted is much cooler. it shuold be able driving it, not just getting the car from A to B... lets get away from the whole winch challege style where the car couldn't drive it, so lets recover it and time that too.

unless you can provide the spotter with his/her own portable 6 point cage (in an easy to carry backpack and belt buckle format), perhaps they shouldn't be on the course.

[sierrajim]

my suggestion is that the driver has to stay in the rig, and, we either remove the spotter all together and make it all about the driver... or, we ban the spotter from touching the vehicle (this would include teathering)... doing this will mean that the vehicle can only progress on the track using its own traction.

I can see where your coming from here, but from a new spectators point of veiw on this sport, i enjoy watching teams sit there smoking there expensive tread while the spotter holds the strap and rocks it back and forth making the obsticals that i originally viewed as impossible, possible.

I know spectators are not the major concern here but we are a part of this sport,

i believe also banning the spotter from touching the car is not as benifical for example at WE rock round 2 i don't believe N.A.M. would have been able to flip his buggy back to its wheel by himself there for he would not have been able to complete the stage, and roll overs are apart of rock crawling...

just my few cents worth

if a car rolls over, i hasn't driven the course. i reckon give that car a DNF right there and then. rolling a car back onto its wheels when running on the clock (i.e. when being timed) is just asking for trouble... i think it will only be a matter of time until a team does this and has the car roll over them... the same is true of having a spotter with a teather - it isn't unusual to see the spotter get dragged down a rockface, or get very close to the wheels when they are spinning madly hunting for traction.

a spotter pulling a car over something is cool, but i think you'll agree that watching a car drive something unassisted is much cooler. it shuold be able driving it, not just getting the car from A to B... lets get away from the whole winch challege style where the car couldn't drive it, so lets recover it and time that too.

unless you can provide the spotter with his/her own portable 6 point cage (in an easy to carry backpack and belt buckle format), perhaps they shouldn't be on the course.

I like your thinking. This way its all about the driving.

Rules can become over complicated very easily. These days with insurance the way it is keeping the spotter away from the vehicle may very well save the sport.

As it stands now if a spotter were to be injured or worse, would insurance ever be issued for another event?

[bad_religion_au]

my suggestion is that the driver has to stay in the rig, and, we either remove the spotter all together and make it all about the driver... or, we ban the spotter from touching the vehicle (this would include teathering)... doing this will mean that the vehicle can only progress on the track using its own traction.

I can see where your coming from here, but from a new spectators point of veiw on this sport, i enjoy watching teams sit there smoking there expensive tread while the spotter holds the strap and rocks it back and forth making the obsticals that i originally viewed as impossible, possible.

I know spectators are not the major concern here but we are a part of this sport,

i believe also banning the spotter from touching the car is not as benifical for example at WE rock round 2 i don't believe N.A.M. would have been able to flip his buggy back to its wheel by himself there for he would not have been able to complete the stage, and roll overs are apart of rock crawling...

just my few cents worth

if a car rolls over, i hasn't driven the course. i reckon give that car a DNF right there and then. rolling a car back onto its wheels when running on the clock (i.e. when being timed) is just asking for trouble... i think it will only be a matter of time until a team does this and has the car roll over them... the same is true of having a spotter with a teather - it isn't unusual to see the spotter get dragged down a rockface, or get very close to the wheels when they are spinning madly hunting for traction.

a spotter pulling a car over something is cool, but i think you'll agree that watching a car drive something unassisted is much cooler. it shuold be able driving it, not just getting the car from A to B... lets get away from the whole winch challege style where the car couldn't drive it, so lets recover it and time that too.

unless you can provide the spotter with his/her own portable 6 point cage (in an easy to carry backpack and belt buckle format), perhaps they shouldn't be on the course.

have you been to a rock crawling contest... if not i highly suggest you get to a round, they are awesome to watch.

the things about the roll overs and the spotters are an integral part of this sport. for a start it definately is a team sport. and in all honesty if a rig is on it's side, and the driver and spotter are trying to flip it over, IMO there would be little damage done if it did roll back onto them. rollovers are a part of the sport, and not everyone can do like the moonbuggy and drive it back onto it's wheels.

also, re the spotters getting run over, they should be watching closely and be able to avoid the risk, let go of the tether etc in time... every sport has risks, and i don't think rock crawling as it stands is that much higher risk than most sports... yes they do some crazy stuff, but they also have rollcages/ helmets etc...alot more than in your family hack that you sit in at 100k's an hour, with drunk drivers fanging past you.

if you lose the spotter and the recovery aspect, you'll lose alot of the excitement... you say "isn't it more exciting to see a rig drive the obsticle without the spotter" well no, i don't think it is... for a start no rig could drive 1/2 the crazy stuff the tether and spotter enables them to drive, and for a second, if you stopped the ability to self recover under the clock, alot less people would attempt the bonus lines, or attempt other stuff for fear of rolling and therefore getting a dnf.

my 4 hilights of werock bathurst, 2 were all rig, the moonbuggy driving back onto it's wheels after a roll, and Ruff's high speed climb attempt after he did his drive plate. the other 2 were nam and his spotters efforts where they rolled, and the homeless spotter's efforts in the course that he had to run and "borrow" a teather from another rig. out of all of them, from a hazy memory, the two last things had the crowds roaring, and they really got behind the TEAMS.

[ludacris]

Sport in general is about loop holes and and has been for a long time now. Especially motor sport. It is just one of those things that we need to grasp like tuff truck and rear steer and so on. He chose to try it and by the guide lines of the rules in which he must have studied discovered how to get an edge on his competitors. Sport is where new ideas are designed,tested and refined.

Loop holes are good if you are the person willing to look for them. Otherwise we should all have to use a mirror image buggy. BORING.

You can always add COG down low if weight is a problem. But agree that 800 kgs is a better option for competitors.

LudaCris

[bogged]

Loop holes are good if you are the person willing to look for them. Otherwise we should all have to use a mirror image buggy. BORING.

I actually think one of the best class' in bike racing was the RZ Masters series, they also have them in car racing withthe Zook Swift class.
With the RZ/TZR series, you picked a key out of the hat on the friday morning that was your bike for the weekend, you could only change your fairings on the bike for sponsor colours, jetting, tires and stickers - that was it.

You all drive the same things, and it comes down to driver/rider skill.

In these events though, that would be impractical - although Sam was talkin while back about a 1 make series..

[redzook]

gettin way to complacated imo
who would want a point system
just set a weight restriction
the yanks have been down this road why complicate things that work?
there tried and tested

i do realise were not U.S but rockcrawlin is pretty much the same sport no matter where u are

[45punkbus]

i think making the weight restriction rules the same as america is going to be the best idea as when the sport grows and we (australia) get a rigs to qualify ability wise to the standard of american rock crawling rigs then we can send them over to give them a run against the americans where as if we get really light weight buggy's winning over hear they won't be able to comply with the american rules and wont be able to challenge them.

[ljxtreem]

How about we leave It, then when it is time to review the rules, we will see if it needs to be changed.


Mock

[Daisy]

How about we leave It, then when it is time to review the rules, we will see if it needs to be changed.


Mock

mind you.. itd be a LOT harder to implement NEW rules after somthing happens as everyone would then have to make changes.

I mean its not hard to decide on a weight limit isnt it?? 800 kg seems reasonable.

I mean.. its not entirely enforceable.. but it sets the boundaries of the sport to a level where people cant abuse that and start making offroad go karts.

Keep it simple mate... make the changes to prevent inconvenience in the future is my suggestion.

[POS]

This is all getting a bit off topic.

But

One thing to remember is that WEROCK already has a set of rules that really won't ever change, so us discussing these rules is really just for a bit of entertainment.

Rockcrawling will always have a spotter, when it doesn't i will quit the sport, it to me it is what makes it more technical and more of a team event, without the spotter 90% of the teams will be getting hung up on shit and then the crowd will missout on seeing people drive what they are there to drive.

The WEROCK rules stipulate a set length for the spotters strap, this will be enforced, it is there to protect the spotter from getting to close to the moving vehicle.

a spotter pulling a car over something is cool, but i think you'll agree that watching a car drive something unassisted is much cooler. it shuold be able driving it.

This is where you really need to look at it from another point of view - think of it this way.

There is a nasty of cambered turn that converges into a full throttle climb. Now because the cross slope is so severe most rigs are going threw there with the spotter trying to hold them up, some of them will fall over (which the crowd loves to see. So far we have a few cars that have fallen over and a few that have driven threw with the spotter holding them up. Now someone who has a well set-up rig and has a bit of balls decide prior to strating the stage that they will give it a go and really try and get threw without the spotter holding it up. This Team then gets threw the stage without even using the strap. They are rewarded by points (not using the strap) and they are also known by the spectators as the only team to pull of that move. It shows that they hare really switched on and attacked the obstacle and pulled it off.

Now if there was NO spotter at all, the slope would not have been set as hard as it was and most of the cars would have driven it easily, boring to watch. Or if the slope was the same one most of the rigs would have fallen over and instead of having 10 teams complete the stage they may only have one complete it, again not very good entertainment.

[RUFF]

Yep Im hearing you all and agree all round. Please no shooting me down in flames as I am only trying too make some OZ rules that make it fair for all too compete. We in Vic have alot of Suzi based rigs The Suzi people argue that a suzi can be 900kg in standard road rego form so its not fair that a standard rig should have too add weight too compete.
OK please submit too this rule so all will be happy.
How do I allow a light weight vehicle (no bikes or gocarts) too compete.
I think people should be real about this as we all know what a buggy is and people will try and push the friendship but just remember, You still have too get through scrutineering and I WILL KNOT PUT UP WITH BS.
We are all adults here and we are not playing for cattle stations but FUN.
I estimate that some of the yank rigs are under the 1000 so do we ask for a weighbridge ticket Where do we set the weight How do we word it too police it And how do we enforce it
I hear what people are saying, but this isnt a yank event, but we do tend too follow them. This is OZ Rock so lets stand on our own two feet and make our own decisions.
OK post up.

One thing i dont get is if the weight restriction has been dropped from supermods to make it fair for everyone to compete then why has it still remained in Modified? As you say there are a lot of Zook Based rigs in Vic. Doesnt this make it unfair to Zook Based Rigs? I think in the Modified Class you are going to see more Zook based rigs than anything else.

I think the easiest way to make everything fair is to set a Minimum weight. Basicaly in aus its hard to build any rig to weigh in under 1000KG on a budget. But if you have plenty of $$$$ your going to build the lightest vehicle possible. We dont have the support yet in these events in Aus and making it so the Guy that has the most $$$ has the best chance to win is going to slow this sport even more.

Personaly i think that the 1000KG weight restriction is a realistic weight.


Ohh and Mock the reason we have so m,uch interest in this is because we want to see this sport continue to grow.

No Flames here just offering my opinion.

[RUFF]

How about we leave It, then when it is time to review the rules, we will see if it needs to be changed.


Mock

Its no good to review the rules after people have allready built rigs. Most will struggle to just build one without having to build another if the rules dont work.

[N*A*M]

my suggestion is that the driver has to stay in the rig, and, we either remove the spotter all together and make it all about the driver... or, we ban the spotter from touching the vehicle (this would include teathering)... doing this will mean that the vehicle can only progress on the track using its own traction.

as for the comments about "but the cars drive on steep side angles and would roll without a teather" - isn't that the whole point. if the rig is low with a low CoG, it will still drive these side angles, otherwise it will roll. if this is a problem, then we know that the courses won't need to be as hard won't we. problem solved.

i respect your opinion and suggestions. but however many short course events have you been to? i'm not talking just rockcrawling. it's inevitable that cars will get stuck at some stage or other. and this is mostly due to poor traction in holes dug by other cars. build me a course with constant high grip and you can keep my spotter strap. but we don't have that luxury here. the strap doesn't take anything away from the sport, nor does it endanger anyone. just from the last round of werock, i saw dave camp make very good use of rear diff winch and spotter strap in a full bodied 4skinner. i also saw rod pulling tom from being high centered on a ledge to finish the cource. and personally, my spotter and i lifted our buggy back onto its wheels and finished the same course. taking outside interference out would make for frustrated teams, early dnfs and boring viewing for spectators. tell me the crowd didn't love it when two skinny asian dudes righted their rig?

as for your point about setting the courses to suit the rigs. it's impossible unless you are running a formula competition where the rigs are all standardised. in the comps we currently have in australia, you have anything from a zook on 46", to a 4runner on 37s, to a two seater buggy, to a single seater buggy. standardisation is just not going to happen, unless you cater to the lowest common denominator. then whats the point in most of the field walking over an easy course?

but yeah, i'd be interested to know what kind of comp experiences you've had (as a spectator or participant)? just curious, that's all.

[RUFF]

tell me the crowd didn't love it when two skinny asian dudes righted their rig?

When i think back on my memories of competing and spectating this is one of if not the most impressive things i remember. It realy was awsome to watch you two guys get that back on its wheels and complete the course

Why is it when i roll i always end up like a Turtle

[DamTriton]

tell me the crowd didn't love it when two skinny asian dudes righted their rig?

When i think back on my memories of competing and spectating this is one of if not the most impressive things i remember. It realy was awsome to watch you two guys get that back on its wheels and complete the course

Why is it when i roll i always end up like a Turtle

We loved it almost as much as the initial rollover

But in all honesty making it to the end of the section was an achievement for any of the competitors, and that was appreciated by the crowd too.

[frp88]

o.k i just watched tuff truck and have to say i love that they all still look like moded 4bees and when they all start turning into tube buggys i will not enjoy it as much.I know that most off us can never spend that kind off $'s weather its pete's yellow 40 or my fav. the mog.
So as it goes for my budget it has to be the car that i drive to work so it cant be to wild i cant get the rubber that i want to much at $500 each that is what i think 1 big rim would be on the big trucks but as long as they look like trucks i'll go watch them

[Strange Rover]

Look - I think you guys are going to do what ever you think is the right thing. But just remember this -

If we all stick to the same rules then this sport will grow so much faster!!

I had a look at the modified rules and these are way off the target. Modified is supposed to be a class that appeals to the general public in that they can relate to the vehicles. It is supposed to be a top level class that has body restrictions in much the same way as funny cars are to top fuelers in drag racing or NASCARs are to indy cars in circuit racing. The idea is to produce really good looking cars that can be promoted to the general wheeling population so that the sport can grow. Your rules have turned the mod class in to some cheap, entry level, tube buggy class.

The formula for the success of rockcrawling has been very well established in the US over the last 5 years. The formula has turned rockcrawling in the US from an amature motor sport in one that drivers and owners have become full time professional in less than 2 years. There are teams in the US that have 1/2 million dollar per year sponsorship deals and competitors get bought rigs that are worth over $100,000US to drive. The growth of the sport there is totally booming and this is the direction I am trying to make the sport follow here.

The US format works and works very well because of some very well founded principles (from the UROC site):

2.1.1.1. Super-Modified
2.1.1.1.1. The Super Modified class is intended for the most progressive four wheel drive vehicles in use today. Restrictions on this class are intended to keep the vehicles of automotive type and design.
2.1.1.2. Modified
2.1.1.2.1. The goal of the Modified class is to build vehicles that the general population can relate to. Vehicles that look like OEM vehicle. At the same time, these vehicles will be given enough leeway in their design to allow modification to be made that afford extreme performance in
rockcrawling. The goal of UROC is to utilize this class to build the off-road industry by invoking a desire by the masses to build up their own vehicles for the purpose of recreational and competitive off-roading.

Note that the super modifies class main criteria is to keep the vehicles of automotive type and design - this is done by setting the weight limit at a level that creates this. 1000kg seems to work well. You want to have suzuki based rigs be competitive - have a loot at the best modified rig in the US at the moment....this rig has totally dominated the sport over the last 2 years. Have a look at the vehicle that one the US national championship series in 2003. The 1000kg weight limit works - you guys dont have to reinvent anything.

Also note that the modified vehicle are supposed to look like an OME vehicle that the public can relate too.

Think about what we are trying to achieve here guys. Im hoping we are both on the same side. If we run different rules we will be limiting our opportunities.

Sam

[Strange Rover]

i think making the weight restriction rules the same as america is going to be the best idea as when the sport grows and we (australia) get a rigs to qualify ability wise to the standard of american rock crawling rigs then we can send them over to give them a run against the americans where as if we get really light weight buggy's winning over hear they won't be able to comply with the american rules and wont be able to challenge them.

This is happening sooner rather than later. This time next year WE Rock is sending 4 teams to the US to compete in the World Championships. If guys build rigs to different specifications to the US competitions that you will never have the opportunity to compete against the best in the world.

Sam

[Tojo]

ok, time for some facts please. How much do the buggies currently in use in Australian rock crawling competitions weigh? POS, how much does your new buggy weigh? RUFF? N*A*M? Cheezy? Mock how heavy is your suzuki based thing? I am curious how much these things weigh. Not how much you think they might weigh, but what they actually do weigh! And if you own one and don't know what it weighs put it on the trailer, take it over the weighbridge, unload it then weigh the trailer and work it out, then post up the weight.

[redzook]

ok, time for some facts please. How much do the buggies currently in use in Australian rock crawling competitions weigh? POS, how much does your new buggy weigh? RUFF? N*A*M? Cheezy? Mock how heavy is your suzuki based thing? I am curious how much these things weigh. Not how much you think they might weigh, but what they actually do weigh! And if you own one and don't know what it weighs put it on the trailer, take it over the weighbridge, unload it then weigh the trailer and work it out, then post up the weight.

id be suprised if any ones was under the 1000kg mark

mine comes in at 1300kg

[antt]

iirc the haultech two seater ones range between 1250 and 1350 or something like that

[RUFF]

I beleive mine would be close to 1400KG now. It was weighed when i originaly built it and it came in at 1350 but i have added some weight since then.

So far we have not even tried to build a rig to come anywhere near the current weight restriction of the W.E.Rock rules of 1000KG.

Im only taking a guess here but i would think the moon buggies would weigh around 1150-1200.

[Strange Rover]

yep - and the origional lockless was 1450kg

Think Sam Kecks aztec weight over 1200kg and I think the trail craft was also over 1200kg.

I would think that adrians moon buggy weight closer to 1100kg but we will get it on the scales one of these days.

In the US most of the rigs weigh over 1000kg without adding weight. I do believe that Tiny and Scrapper (use VW air cooled style engines) weigh less than the 1000kg without ballist but these rigs are built very very light. Basicaly th engine is air cooled and weighs 70kg ready to run (no water or radiator), 2 speed powerglide about 40kg and atlas. The diffs are lightweight 9in diffs (alloy thirds) with thin walled cromo axle tubes. The drive train (engine/auto/transfer/axles) in these rigs would weigh less than stock suzuki - basically the only component that would weigh more would be the transfer (altas heavier than zuk transfer) and thats it.

By lowering the weight it is the big $$$$ machines that you are helping not the zuks.

But this really shouldnt matter - there are just so many advantages to running the same rules as WE Rock in terms of making the sport grow.

Sam

[ljxtreem]

ok, time for some facts please. How much do the buggies currently in use in Australian rock crawling competitions weigh? POS, how much does your new buggy weigh? RUFF? N*A*M? Cheezy? Mock how heavy is your suzuki based thing? I am curious how much these things weigh. Not how much you think they might weigh, but what they actually do weigh! And if you own one and don't know what it weighs put it on the trailer, take it over the weighbridge, unload it then weigh the trailer and work it out, then post up the weight.

I dont know how much mine weigh's, not even going to guess.


Mock

[Q*U*A*N*G]

my suggestion is that the driver has to stay in the rig, and, we either remove the spotter all together and make it all about the driver... or, we ban the spotter from touching the vehicle (this would include teathering)... doing this will mean that the vehicle can only progress on the track using its own traction.

as for the comments about "but the cars drive on steep side angles and would roll without a teather" - isn't that the whole point. if the rig is low with a low CoG, it will still drive these side angles, otherwise it will roll. if this is a problem, then we know that the courses won't need to be as hard won't we. problem solved.

as for the people with the most money building the best technology and winning all the races - this is true of any and all sports - not just motor sport. it's how the world works. example: the country that spends the most money on their junior cricket will have the best cricket team in the world etc...

however, again, if you remove the ability for the spotter to touch the cars / help the cars, at least these very expensive buggies will have some very cool driving to do to get to the finish line.

if people still want to be able to compete against these super expensive cars, then the way to do that is to setup and run your classes appropriately. this will mean that cheap cars can compete against cheap cars, and fancy cars against the fancy cars... this would be no different to any other motor sport, or any other sport in general (i.e. different classes for boxing etc).

just my 2c.

not having a go at u but problem isnt solved....
if we make the courses easier where is the entertainment for the fans, spectators, the young kid who came to watch, who one day maybe build a rig of there own and competitors dont pay the entry fee to compete in a course that isnt challenging...if we make it easier people would be disappointed and im pretty sure the organiser build/search for challenging terrain for a reason i bet one of them is because its more fun and exciting for all....another reason is that it makes it fair...how u ask???...well spotters can assist the "cheaper" rigs around the course and encur the penalty for doing so, whilst the more "expensive" ones can do it without it and everyone gets to see all the rigs have a go at 'tough' terrain rather then driving through a park...and if u remove spotter all together like someone said...the less capable rigs are just gonna roll but thats not what people came to watch nor do...

and i think by seperating the classes isnt such a good idea...as u said like almost every other sport they have different classes i.e formula one and formula 3000...but how many times do u actually hear or see formula 3000. it is abit unfair for the guys who have put 200% into there rigs just to have no one reckonise them for there efforts unless they get sponsered and spent top dollar to turn it into a fancy one...

i say if the main reason for not having a weight restriction is so that the zooks can compete then just lower it down to 900 and say anything below that must be approved prior to the competition.

just my 3c...(which is rounded up and now worth 5c)

[Strange Rover]

I really carnt see any competitive rig get to below 1000 without spending big dollars.

I have it on good authority that one of the very competitive big dollar US rigs weighs in at 860kg before adding weight to meet the minimum. We are talking thin walled cromoly everywhere and aluminium everywhere else. If they let this rig run at its minimum weight absolutely nothing would be able to touch it.

Sam

[ljxtreem]

In the rules it specifies cage wall thickness, cant be too thin walled.

Mock.

[N*A*M]

In the rules it specifies cage wall thickness, cant be too thin walled.

Mock.

and how would you check this? cut a cross section of my cage?
and are you going to make everyone leave their cage unpainted too?

[bogged]

one good thing,
...when the flag drops
the bullshit stops...