Hydraulic Power on board a TDI300

[gali]

Hi yaa all,

I'm looking for a suitable solution to add hydraulic power into my TDI300 Defender.
I don’t want to use the PTO option since it an expensive one, but to use a pump driven by one of the engine belts.
Do anyone of you guys did it before or I'm on my own?

the next option is an electric one, but if i'll add one on a 12V DC i did nothing almost nothing form using an electric power for a winch.
by the way, hydraulic power should operate a winch.

So, what do you think?

Gali.

[takearidewifme]

From what I can remember dont some winches run off your power steering pump?... I dont really agree with this as there is not the oil volume ness for cooling.... But I have tossed around the idea of a second power steering pump conected to a tank... poss small air tank... and fitted with an aircon clutch so it isnt dragging power when not needed.... it gets done with aircon pumps everyday for air so I cant see why this wouldent be a viable option for an onboard powerpack.... you could run hi lift hydraulic jacks, hydraulic undercarrige wheels.... the mind boggles..

Mark

[takearidewifme]

I also ment to say you could cool the oil with a trans oil cooler...If you have the volume..

Mark

[Bush65]

Are you running air conditioning?

If not you could mount the pump where the air conditioning compressor mounts.

Depending on the size of the pump you use, you may be able to use the electromagnetic clutch from the compessor. Otherwise Warner Electric have 12V clutches suitable for hydraulic pumps. http://www.warnerelectric.com

If you have air con, then you will have to find somewhere to mount the pump so that the pump can be belt driven from a pulley bolted to the front of the harmonic balancer.

Alfred Murray http://www.4x4winches.com/ use chain drive for their hyd pump sytems. The pumps they use are only a bit larger displacement than the normal power steering pump though.

I would prefer vee or multi-vee belts to chain, unless you need to winch while the belts are immersed in water (which may cause belts to slip.

I have a Maxi-drive pto hyd pump in my rangie and a Parker pump with Warner Electric clutch (2 B section belts) for my bushie.

[gali]

Hi John,

i do use my A/C mount for the A/C, i live in a kinda hot Cookie (Israel) so taking the A/C off won't be a smart one.

I once considered a double mount instead of the single one (originaly) used at A/C based on the timing housing; I also attached a photo of a friend of mine who doubled his mount to add a second A/C compressor use to fill an air tank.

i afraid that in my case, a hydraulic pump, the force (actually torque) of the pully will be much stronger & destroy the original set of M8 bolts at the housing. so it's my last option.
you can also notice that he changed the direction of the belt tension idler pully.

what i'm basiclly looking here from you guys is another option to mount a pully drive on the original belt set.

what shown at "4x4winches.com" is a set of a scond pully attahced to the original power steering pump (a ZF74 type), which drives another ZF74 pump; all as a kit.

few quastions regard:

1. is the ZF74 suffucient to drive an hydro winch (Warn 9000 or a mile marker)?
2. do any of you guys familiar with that specific kit?
3. did you seen any picture of that kit installed & can publish one?

Thanks,

Gali.

[Bush65]

IIRC the figures quoted for a ZF74 pump are about 11 or 12 L/min so mounting alongside the aircon compressor should be OK. My pto pump delivers almost 60 L/min at 2000 rpm and the Parker CP16 that I have is larger displacent than that and is to over 3000 rpm.

The Milemarker hyd winch is a good winch, but needs a larger pump than the stock power steering pump. The stock valves are not suitable for use with larger pumps. The Danfoss motor is suitable for as large as pump as practical.

An other option for higher speed from a Milemarker with the ZF74, is to change to a smaller motor (on the winch) and increase the pressure setting to restore the torque. If you did this, a geroller motor would be better than the gerotor motor.

If you want to remove the shear load from the M8 bolts, weld a snub block on the underside of the mounting plate. So the shear load (from tension in the belt) is taken by the snub block bearing against the RH side of the aluminium casting that the plate will bolt onto.

I'll have to have a better look, but offhand I imagine it may be difficult to get enough belt wrap around the pulley for the aircon compressor to avoid belt slip. I would like to see a pic of your friends set-up with the belt fitted.

[gali]

here you go John.

can you add some pictures of the system you described? it can be helpfull.

[Utemad]

Ox make hydraulic winches. Mine has 'Milemarker' written on it so I suppose they are one in the same.
http://www.tjmproducts.com.au/winches.html

From the tech bible

http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modul ... hp?t=32834
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modul ... hp?t=30462

[Bush65]

here you go John.

can you add some pictures of the system you described? it can be helpfull.

Looking at that pic, I doubt the belt tensions and directions will affect the load on the mounting bolts very much.

I would be worried about belt slip with so little wrap on the aircon compressor pulley. Another idler pulley between the pair of compressors will help, but that would push the RH compressor further outboard.

I can post a pic of the pump on my rangie, but it is on a Maxi-drive pto.

I could take a pic of the clutch pump for my Isuzu engine but it is not mounted yet, and the Isuzu is unlike a 300Tdi. It wiil be driven from double vee pulley on front of harmonic balancer and mounted low on the LH side of the block, below the alternator.

[Bush65]

I had a quick look at my 300Tdi today.

Mounting a pump (or second compressor) to the right of the aircon compressor should not cause any problem with loads on the mounting bolts.

The extra torque to drive the pump causes the tension in the belt leaving the aircon compressor pulley to increase and the tension in the belt from the tensioner to reduce. The direction of the tight side belt is such that the load on the bolts is low.

Also you would not use the air conditioning while winching.

I believe they use the ZF74 pump in the UK for winching and mount them in place of the aircon compressor. So it is reasonable to expect that the polyvee belt is good enough.

So it should be OK to mount one alongside the compressor.

[gali]

Thanks to all,

by the way, did any of you guys tried to winch hydraulic using the ZF74?

to make a long story short, i'm looking for an answer since i didnt decided yet if to purchase a hydraullic Warn & modify a complete set of hydro power on my TDI300 or to go for a used Warn 8274-50 offered to me at $550; the 8274 is after a complete rework of the vendor but uses the older engine, maybe the 2.5HP (i don't know)?

so all of you ,old & wise, are welcome to share your opinions with me, or it can also become a new thread.

thanks again,

Gali.

[james feeney]

Some friends I know in Ireland:

http://www.ifwdc.com/tech/winchpump/winchpump.html

Hope this helps

JF

[Bush65]

Thanks to all,

by the way, did any of you guys tried to winch hydraulic using the ZF74?

to make a long story short, i'm looking for an answer since i didnt decided yet if to purchase a hydraullic Warn & modify a complete set of hydro power on my TDI300 or to go for a used Warn 8274-50 offered to me at $550; the 8274 is after a complete rework of the vendor but uses the older engine, maybe the 2.5HP (i don't know)?

so all of you ,old & wise, are welcome to share your opinions with me, or it can also become a new thread.

thanks again,

Gali.

No, I have not tried the ZF74 pump for winching. They will not produce the flow that I want.

I have not had any experience with the Warn hyd winches. I do not now what motors they use. You would need to know the motor specs and the gear reduction ratio etc, before you decide on a pump to use with these.

Hyd motor speed = [pump displacement/motor displacement] x pump speed x efficiency (efficiency is used to account for internal hydraulic leakage).

I would expect the hyd winch to be slow with a ZF74 pump. Unless you put more money (and it will take a lot of $$) into a better hyd system, then I believe you would be better off if you buy the 8274 and replace the motor with a 6HP one. This will give you more winch performance for your money.

I have a hyd TJM ox (AFAIK these are rebadged milemarkers) for a rear winch and some 8274's that I am fitting hyd motors to (waiting for adaptors and couplings to be finished).

The motors for the 8274's are 5 cc/rev and are rated for continuous 10,000 rpm at a little over 50 litres/min (or 11,000 rpm for short durations). From memory the power is about 22 kW at rated pressure, but I will be using lower pressure to protect the rest of the winch and rope.