Which engine is best for me.

[nicbeer]

Hey,

Just looking at engine options still. I have narrowed down to looking at a G16B (EFI either 8v or 16v) or a G13B (GTI). $$ is pending on either. A supercharger on either (SC12 or AMR 300) is possible.

I will be running
WT zook with zook diffs + 3.9 ratios.
31's for a while i think and a rear locker.

Do mostly fire trails and tracks with a bundle of sand and mud included. I have a play on rocks but not as much as sand and that.

I was thinking a GTI engine as no mods are needed mount wise only have to play with the dizzy drive and extractors from what i have read.

Wondering what ur thoughts r.

Nic

[mr green]

for the money i am happy with my gti, got custom extractors made (cost $660 engine to chrome tip), bit of stuffing about with the thermostat and water pipes but very easy once you know what to buy, and i did the firewall box. looked at the angle drive but wasnt real excited by the disign for the $4?0. i would rather a reliable engine than a reliable heater! paid $1200 at the time for a crashed gti and i had all the bits and pieces to do the whole job besides the exhaust
but if i was to do it now i would either go for the g16b from the late baleno with no dizzy or the g13bb jimny, all the motors are getting cheaper now than when i did mine so there is a couple more option

my vote goes to the g13bb

[Spike_Sierra]

another vote for the BB..

ive had mine in for a couple of weeks now, was the easiest conversion known to man..

same engine mounts, no dizzy, bolts up to gearbox, what more could you want

[nicbeer]

But arnt they sfa difference over a G13 stock. except for efi and a bit more smoother in rev range.

On paper they look similar

Nic

[mr green]

twin cam,efi, dfi ignition= alot better. don't know th KW speck but they shoudn't be far behind the GTI, maybe they don't appreciate 7500 rpm like theGTI but you can only try!
what sort of dollars for the g13bb conversion spike? looks like i have sold my rig- got half a brain to start another,i would go th bb next time round

[Gwagensteve]

Nicbeer, you didn't mention the rest of your gearing, but if you are 31's and 3.9's I think you will hate the GTI offroad, and I think the hassle of a $470 dizzy drive or no blower fan (=no demist= illegal in a car with a windscreen) is much different to a couple of mounts.

The HP in a GTI is all so high up in the rev range. They feel great in a GTI, but unless your gearing is already too low I think that off road, the HP will only work against you controlling the car instead of for you. All GTI engines are getting pretty old now and will have had some enthusiastic owners.

There is a fair difference between the BB and the A - 45/47kw to 59.

You will struggle to find an 8v g16 efi, and these were throttle body, and not australian market motors.

A 16v efi is a 65-70kw motor depending on year and source, and are quite sweet in a sierra, but it is a conversion, especially by the time you sort out the gearbox/block tapping, bonnet clearance, fan shround etc. Sure you can go for a GV version which is coil packed, but they are soooo hard to find

I would go the BB. It's such a sweet fit, provides a useful increase in power, but the EFI drivability is what really takes the cake. These are all newer than dizzy 1.6's too.

Steve.

[HotAe92]

i would personally go for the BB, as thats what i plan to do later down the track - with running low boost from a SC12.

Whatever engine you choose, ill lend a hand, i need to get a bit of hands-on with sierras.

[duncan]

Nic go for a dunny door v6 it fits nice and snuggly

[nicbeer]

Duncan,

Would like to but legal i dont think so.

Gwagen. 1L transfer case and stock gbox. as a lot of my driving is in sand or tracks where revs are good it may be ok for me.

Nic

[Spike_Sierra]

all up i paid around 1700. thats everything, fuel pumps, fuel filters, new belts, oil and filter, hoses. etc.

heaps more power then standard 13ba, as how much of that full power do you think its actually putting out now?

ive got 36000 ks on mine, and you gotta love efi

[Gwagensteve]

I think that 1lt transfer, 3.9's and 31's might be OK, but if it feels borderline OK now on hills/techncial terrain, it will feel crap with the GTI IMHO.

I think you would want a 4:1 case to run a GTI with decent off road behaviour. You will need a gear below your existing low 1st, especiallly if you add a locker (the added traction will make the engine bog)

[nicbeer]

I think that 1lt transfer, 3.9's and 31's might be OK, but if it feels borderline OK now on hills/techncial terrain, it will feel crap with the GTI IMHO.

I think you would want a 4:1 case to run a GTI with decent off road behaviour. You will need a gear below your existing low 1st, especiallly if you add a locker (the added traction will make the engine bog)

Why's that? i would guess (not seeing a dyno sheet) that the gti would have the same power/torqu as the g13ba at the same rpm but the gti obviously have more on tap above the g13ba rev range?

That baleno sounds interesting, esp the dizzy thing

Nic

[Gwagensteve]

Nic,



The cams, valve sizing, head flow charateristics etc are all optimised in a GTI for top end flow.


a 1988 1.3 does 47kw @ approx 5500rpm & 100nm at 3000rpm
a 1988 GTI does 74.3kw @ 6600rpm & 108nm @ 5500 rpm (I was surprised by how high in RPM the torque peak is!)

Horsepower is torque X rpm, so the torque curve is going to drop off pretty quick under 5500 rpm, and at 3000rpm will be producing well under the torque of the sierra motor.

Also, the motor will have a much narrower sweet spot, theoretically between 5500-6600rpm.

All up, the more digging I am doing, the worse idea the GTI looks. My comment on the gearing is that you will need shorter gearing to get acceptable driviability out of the 1.3, so you will have to add the cost of maybe a 4:1 to the cost of the GTI conversion. The shorter gearing will be neeed to get the car out of the torque hole that the gti has and get eh car spinning harder and into its sweet spot. Fun on fast dirt (and maybe on road, if sierras handled) but it will be really hard work off road.

This is what we did with Greg's 660 - it runs 5.12's to offset the power and torque curves of the 660.

[mr green]

now come on gwagensteve, i was going along with what you were saying but i think your starting to get a bit carried away. yes the GTI just like the stocko 1.3 needs a lower gear but as far as being worse than the stocko i can not agree. as far as i know the gti has a heavier crank to help give it more torque and all that top end power comes in real handy on the road. even at 100ks if you see a hill just find a lower gear and it is happy enough to sit on 6000rpm till you get to the top. owning both the stocko and the gti, the gti will out perform the stocko hands down,
but in saying all that, for the effort i would go the g16b or g13bb if your feeling lazy!

[nicbeer]

Its looking like almost a one sided story. Was just a bit apprensive in going from a 1.3 to a 1.3. even thou efi.

G13BB or G16B 16v.
Anyone supercharged a G13bb?


Upgraded cams? Is the head on a g13BB same as a g13 in that i can swap my cam over?

I am not going carb again.

Nic

[Drew]

sorry nic the cam wont fit the 13bb is 16v too.
jimny engine or import ,remember 13bb single point 1 i did over there it went pretty good.

[nicbeer]

Damn, does anybody do cams for the G13BB or would it be a take out and get it ground.

Would this make a difference in this motor, same as it does to a G13ba. I supose would the stock ecu handle the cam and a supercharger on low boost maybe.

Nic

[Santos]

Hey nic, just thought i might contribute this

47kw G13ba
62kw g13bb
74 kw g13b dohc

Torque wise the g13bb and g13b dohc are like nigh identical
Rather than getting carried away with superchargers and cams why not put it in and see what it feels like?

Then start with the extractors to complement your exhaust

Cam and Remap the chip.


Would be nice if you had a 'suits' rebuild g13bb though. I'm sure you can up the 9.5 compression to 10 with stock gti pistons (or go all out and 11.5) or if you wanted charger bore it out to 75mm vitara pistons (more torque)

[nicbeer]

Yeh i know what u mean santos but was thinking of if i can find one for the right price and goes in may as well do the cam then and not later as it means pulling the motor or head out.

Found 1 cam but it was $800 from one of the suzi shops. Are they that different or hard to do from a g13?

Extractors were going on anyway. By any chance does the G13ba extrators the same as a G13BB or do i go for a jimny set.

Supercharger was only in the back of my mind of doing, as i have seen a couple supercharger small motors and they fly.

Nic

[Santos]

Supercharger was only in the back of my mind of doing, as i have seen a couple supercharger small motors and they fly.

Nic

Ithough stock your 4b did fly!

In sandunes

[Gwagensteve]

now come on gwagensteve, i was going along with what you were saying but i think your starting to get a bit carried away. yes the GTI just like the stocko 1.3 needs a lower gear but as far as being worse than the stocko i can not agree. as far as i know the gti has a heavier crank to help give it more torque and all that top end power comes in real handy on the road. even at 100ks if you see a hill just find a lower gear and it is happy enough to sit on 6000rpm till you get to the top. owning both the stocko and the gti, the gti will out perform the stocko hands down,
but in saying all that, for the effort i would go the g16b or g13bb if your feeling lazy!

Im not quite sure what your disagreeing with Mr Green - I printed the numbers for a GTI and it does demonstrate that a GTI will have significantly less torque at 3000rpm than a sierra at 3000rpm. I was never claiming that a GTI is "worse" than a stock motor all round, but rather that off road drivability will suffer becuase of the narrower/higher powerband. (I am sure they are grouse on fast dirt/road)

My argument is that because of this, if you sierra is geared perfectly now with a stock 1.3 for your tyre size, it will need lower gearing with the GTI to help the motor get out out of the torque hole up to the point where it can work.

As a mate of mine commented on your post - sure you can drop a gear on the highway and use the revs of the GTI to pull it up the hill, but what happens when you need to do this but you're in low 1 and don't have another gear to go to? Normally, this will mean you have to dip the clutch, give it a rev and pop it home with the revs up in the GTI powerband. I call this "lost drivability" over the chuggy old 1.3 becuase you are fighting the engine more.

The GTI just has a bit too much cam in it for off road work.

Steve.

[mr green]

fair enough, as i said earlier i don't think i would go the gti again but i just got a bit touchy to hear that i have spent $2000 and a lot of effort on a lesser engine.
and just quietly 31'' on standard gearing = clutch smoke(but i think that may go for any 1.3?)

[Gwagensteve]

sure 31's and stock gearing will be pretty hard on the clutch.

I think with a 4:1 or 6:1, your set up would be really sweet.

To give you an idea, the white car in the virtual lift thread that Christover posted runs 3.9's (nt centres) and a series 4 (6.4:1) Rockhopper and the gearing is pretty sweet off road - no need to abuse the clutch at all, regardless of how steep it is.

Christover - just had a look for the photo's and there not in the thread HHHEELP!!

That car runs a stock 1.3. It could do with a little bit more on road, but will run accpetably on the highway. Bear in mind it's running a 35.5" tyre.

another option might be to just put 5.12's in the diffs, but by the time you do this, you might still want more gearing off road to get the controllability back.

Steve.