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Scary stuff

General Tech Talk

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Post by -Scott- »

I'll start by admitting all of the following is my own interpretation of how snatching works - it's possibly all cr@p.

Snatching is about using force to extricate (do you like that word? I do! :D ) a stuck vehicle.

With a straight tow (using rope or chain, but no "snatch") you can only generate as much force (tension in the rope/chain) as can be generated by the towing vehicle, with whatever traction it can muster.

With snatching, the towing vehicle generates some speed, then is rapidly decelerated by the stretching strap. Force generated = mass of towing vehicle x deceleration rate = change in momentum / time. It doesn't matter if traction is crap, the towing vehicle merely needs to build some momentum.

So, how to get more force? Heavier snatching vehicle, higher deceleration rate. (Or more momentum, stopped over a shorter time.)

How to get more deceleration? Go faster, or use a strap with less stretch.

Without enough stretch (i.e. chain) you get very high deceleration rate, which equals massive forces - so things break. As Jimbo described, hit the elastic limit of the strap, no more stretch, the last bit of deceleration is massive, so forces are massive again.

Another 2c gone...

Scott
Last edited by -Scott- on Thu Jun 08, 2006 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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snatch

Post by Jimbo »

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Post by ForceAnt »

In summary, its looks idiotic. I would never ever consider using anything over the towball. And how hard is it to actually hook the shackle onto a actual tow point...bugger all. :!:
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snatch

Post by Jimbo »

A flying shackle is almot as bad as a flying towball. How about just a hook? I actually have never used my snatch strap...i just winch my way out. A lot slower but safer.

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Post by lay80n »

No offence, but wikipedia is a online refrence, and not really the best thing to learn from.

F=MA is newtons 2nd law. It relates force of an object to mass and acceleration. Force due to gracitational acceleration is the objects mass multiplied by the gravitational acceleration (approx 9.81ms^-2). If talking about Humans for example. My mass is 88kg, so the amount of force i exert on the ground is F=MA : F=88x9.81 : F = 863.28N of force. From this example you can see why 1KG of mass has a force of 9.8N due to the effect of dravity. Keep in mind that this force only acts down towards the ground. Forces have both magnatiude and dirrection.

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Re: snatch

Post by HotFourOk »

Jimbo wrote:A flying shackle is almot as bad as a flying towball. How about just a hook?
Hooks also break, so would you rather a flying shackle, or a flying hook?

Much of a muchness really...

Lot less chance of a rated shackle breaking compared to a towball. End of story.
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hooks

Post by Jimbo »

Yeah but i'm sure the hook wont snap it just bends and the strap comes free without a lump of metal attached!!

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Re: hooks

Post by HotFourOk »

Jimbo wrote:Yeah but i'm sure the hook wont snap it just bends and the strap comes free without a lump of metal attached!!

Jimmy
How sure?? lol

Have you even read the tests??

Results are:
I have posted this before in the Nissan and Mitsubishi sections.
Forged hooks straighten, not break, so no metal, just flying rope.
1/ Bighorn hooks break their 10mm mounting bolts arround 4 tonne, their design places the rope high on the hook creating leverage.
2/ Drilled out to 12mm the hook snaps no where near the drilling arround 6 tonne
3/ Bushranger hooks straighten arround 4.75 tonne
4/ Hilux hooks with the drop to clear the valence snap the rear bolt and shear the front bolt arroumd 6 tonne
5/ Supercheap black hooks snap @ 8.57 tonne
6/ Black Rat black hooks snap @ 5.54 tonne
7/ Black Rat chrome hooks straighten @ 4.75 tonne
Forged ones bend, whereas other ones snap and fly off.
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hook

Post by Jimbo »

Cool i will jsut keep winching then :D I cant afford a hook to the head.

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Post by playdoh »

A lot of thought has gone into this, but none of the calculations take into account the fatigue of the towball.

when you're doing a recovery, you also want to minimise the risks wherever possible, using a recovery hook or the hitch pin, you only have to worry about two possible failure points, the strap and the attatchment point, using this device there are four possible failure points, pin, ball, shackle and strap, not worth the risk if you ask me.
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Post by sudso »

-Scott- wrote:I'll start by admitting all of the following is my own interpretation of how snatching works - it's possibly all cr@p.

Snatching is about using force to extricate (do you like that word? I do! :D ) a stuck vehicle.

With a straight tow (using rope or chain, but no "snatch") you can only generate as much force (tension in the rope/chain) as can be generated by the towing vehicle, with whatever traction it can muster.

With snatching, the towing vehicle generates some speed, then is rapidly decelerated by the stretching strap. Force generated = mass of towing vehicle x deceleration rate = change in momentum / time. It doesn't matter if traction is crap, the towing vehicle merely needs to build some momentum.

So, how to get more force? Heavier snatching vehicle, higher deceleration rate. (Or more momentum, stopped over a shorter time.)

How to get more deceleration? Go faster, or use a strap with less stretch.

Without enough stretch (i.e. chain) you get very high deceleration rate, which equals massive forces - so things break. As Jimbo described, hit the elastic limit of the strap, no more stretch, the last bit of deceleration is massive, so forces are massive again.

Another 2c gone...

Scott
It's simple, as the strap stretches it builds up and stores kinetic energy measured in kilojoules?. When that load (energy) in the strap becomes significantly more than the load of the stuck vehicle and the load holding it stuck, it pulls it out. A lighter vehicle doing the snatching doesn't make it harder to snatch out beceuse it's the energy in the strap that pulls out the stuck car. The lighter vehicle might need a bit more momentum to get enough stretch required to do it though.
If the strength required to pull the stuck vehicle out is greater than any component of the snatching set up then something will give at it's weakest point.
A heavier vehicle may help pull the stuck vehicle out but the rules of energy required versus component strength still apply.
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Post by ISUZUROVER »

sudso wrote:as the strap stretches it builds up and stores kinetic energy
No such thing as "stored kinetic energy" - that is potential energy. Kinetic energy = 1/2*mass*velocity^2. When velocity = 0 then KE = 0.
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Post by bazzle »

Towballs and D shackles have created damage to vehicles and people.
Documented more than once in club mags etc.
ARB had a pic once of shackle that went thru rear door, thru headrest and into windscreen. I have seen others. (Nissan 4wd club)

Pin in hitch is good but has 2 problems.
1. Bends in the middle
2. Strap pulled to one side will get cut on outer tube edge.

Best fix IMO.
Use pin but have a receiver or box section in place held by pin. Shear strength greatly increased. (4 load faces)
Use a rated shackle thru towbar hole or just the strap onto a forged hook bolted to hitch box section.

Modern rated towballs do have a higher shear foce from bending than older ones (whos going to go and buy a new rated one???)
Part of the AS standard test is just that.

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Post by ISUZUROVER »

A D or Bow-shackle with the correct rating is MUCH better than a tow ball.

For those people with the hayman-reece type hitch receiver, this is the best option. Although it means extra metal bits, it is specially made for recovery, and makes the load on the hitch-pin a proper double shear load.
Image
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Post by stuee »

ISUZUROVER wrote:A D or Bow-shackle with the correct rating is MUCH better than a tow ball.

For those people with the hayman-reece type hitch receiver, this is the best option. Although it means extra metal bits, it is specially made for recovery, and makes the load on the hitch-pin a proper double shear load.
Image
This is what we use on our disco. Just chuck it on before we leave and take it off at the end of the day. Too easy and now that there are pre-made units a lot easier to obtain (ours was custom made at the time as it was quicker than sourcing one). Just remeber to take the shackles off otherwise some lowlife will pinch it :bad-words:
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Post by HotFourOk »

I wish I had a Hayman-Reese Style towbar to use one of these.. They look neat and very strong! :D
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Post by Bitsamissin »

I put this on the Jabber a little while ago.
It has a 10,000lb rating and is held by 4x12mm grade 8 bolts.
These hooks were designed to replace the D hook for Nissans but they run 4x10mm bolts. I had to reem the holes out a bit to take the Paj 12mm bolts. As I don't tow or have a HD tow bar it was a good option for me.
Most of the guys I wheel with have winches anyway so extreme snatching is hardly ever done. I only carry an 8,000lb snatch strap so that will break well before the hook or bolts.

Image
Last edited by Bitsamissin on Sat Jun 10, 2006 5:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by nicbeer »

So what are the better ones to buy?

Esp on sierras that there is SFA mounting area for them. On the front it looks like i would have to mount the hook on a plate and then bolt onto chassis to clear the arb bar.

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Post by rangemann »

HotFourOk wrote:
rangemann wrote: Isn't the point of a snatch strap to reduce shock loading.
No.

The point of a snatch strap is to store kinetic energy when it is stretched.

This stored energy is then realeased when the maximum elongation is reached (usually 20%), which in turn produces more snatching force compared to a solid tow strap.

A side effect of using a snatchy is that it removes the jolt as if you were to use a solid strap and started to drive away in a recovery (which you should never do), but this is not the main benefit.
Ok, sure it's not the point, shoulda chosen my words more carefully. I just thought, in general, people were using 'increased shock loading' to desribe the dynamics of a snatch strap and that is quite the opposite of it's characteristics.
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Post by V8Patrol »

eye-for-detail wrote:2: haven't read anyones' experiences with towballs flying off yet
towball .... no.

entire towbar ..... yes on three occasions & by me personally ....

1/
Isuzu truck towbar came out completly and in one piece, the chassis rails however were twisted and torn badly around the bolt holes.
The towbar used an 8bolt connection setup and the bolts were all 1/2inch high tensile bolts.
Isuzu's weight is 4tonnes and the snatching rig (ford cargo was empty but rated at 8GVM).... speed was bloody slow in comparsion to a 4x4 recovery !!
truck snatchstrap used not a 4x4 strap.

2/
Nissan cabstar 1.5ton truckette ( too small to be a real truck ), towbar torn from one chassis rail only and the remaining side was bent beyond repair....... this was a "hard snatch" ( std 4x4 strap was used )

3/
commodore bash car bent towbar ...... again the ball wasnt effected at all nor in this case was the tounge either but the frame was bent 20degrees off line...... very light snatch backwards and slightly off line, hence the 20degrees..... again a std 4x4 strap in use

NB:
the towball was the "hitchingpoint" for the snatch strap in these 3 examples, the ONLY reason the towball was used was there was no other alternative place to attatch the strap, this included the use of a shackle to attatch the strap..... there was simply no choice but the towball at the time.


Personally I dont like the towball snatching option but in the three cases I've listed it shows that the ball isnt likely to fail...... more likely its the failure of what either the towball or recovery hook is attatched to that fails...... or in my case's if the mounting doesnt fail then its the broken strap that does the damage !!

Two years ago I saw a sigma stationwagon have its alloy bullbar ripped out, the bars attatchment was "as per the book" and it was snatched by an experianced 4x4 driver and his yota ute, the force distroyed the bar and the shackle struck the heavyduty toolbox on the tray of the yota ute punching a hole in it bigger than ya fist.

lets face it....... snatching isnt the safest thing in the world, even common sense says stand back just incase the unlikely happens to all this rated gear and approved attatchment methods......

only a fool would take the she'll be rite mate attitude.

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Post by fnqcairns »

Sudso may have got the terms wrong but he nailed the theory without.

cheers fnq
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Re: hook

Post by Gumby »

Jimbo wrote:Cool i will jsut keep winching then :D I cant afford a hook to the head.

Jimmy
I thought that until i had nothing to winch from, sounds like youve allways wheeled around trees...Victoria comes to mind
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winch

Post by Jimbo »

Yeah i'm in vic with lots of trees, plus i go out with a mate.

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Post by nicbeer »

nicbeer wrote:So what are the better ones to buy?

Esp on sierras that there is SFA mounting area for them. On the front it looks like i would have to mount the hook on a plate and then bolt onto chassis to clear the arb bar.

Nic
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Post by bazooked »

hey nic ur front arb bar is good enough thats what they r designed 4, u should have 2 points of the bottom of ur bar, and for the rear use the chassis to mount hooks etc with plates either side for strength, with crush tubes inside.
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Post by nicbeer »

Bazooked - cheers.

Where on the bar?

Image

I am guessing the two holes the bottom of the bar? I thought these were tow points and not snatch rated?

Rear i am using factory point so far but looking to add another on there possibly on the rear bar of drews.

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Post by sudso »

fnqcairns wrote:Sudso may have got the terms wrong but he nailed the theory without.

cheers fnq
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Post by Gumby »

Do not use the holes on the bottom of the bar unless manufacturer states they are snatch points.

I seen pics of those eyes letting go and the shackle embeding itself into a new spare on the back just the other week.

My local arb dealer said the holes with the reinforced backing is fine for recovery but if they aint reinforced they aint recovery points.
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Post by bazooked »

mine is a winch bar, but i dont think they are any different to your 1, i winch and snatch of mine all the time.
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Post by chimpboy »

nicbeer wrote:I am guessing the two holes the bottom of the bar? I thought these were tow points and not snatch rated?

Rear i am using factory point so far but looking to add another on there possibly on the rear bar of drews.
There is no way I would use one of those two holes to snatch from.
This is not legal advice.
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