Winch: Anyone toyed with this idea?

[BabyGodzillaGTi-R]

I'm thinking of running this winch coz my old M8000 is dieing.
Then again it's old almost 20 years old.

http://www.offroadershack.com/html/modu ... =4714#4714

It seems all the competition cars run them over here. But they seem pretty dangerous look at the speeds they spool.
Just curious down under, u guys tried fabricating your own PTO winch?

[HJ60_HEATHUS]

No shear pin or quick release? Looks like an accident waiting to happen. I don't think the strength is any advantage, as the cable is usually the weak link.

And the spool speeds are ridiculous. the gearing would be horrible for any motor that has to rev for torque.

[chimpboy]

I'm a bit dumb, so have I got this right?

They use a PTO output on the original transmission, and hook it up to a driveshaft, then they run the driveshaft to a 120Y diff and use the 120Y axle itself as a winch drum?

Am I close?

[N*A*M]

i think they modify another drum to suit
i wonder what they do to brake the drum
in another thread, they said they use oil rig cables
i love ingenuity using what you have available

there are some cool threads in that forum
and they all talk like franji's friends, lah!

[chimpboy]

I was thinking about this some more (and yes it's stupid), but let's say you used an open diff for this, and then utilised the original brakes... you could use the brake on the non-winching side of the diff as a sort of clutch for the winch... the more braking, the more power... and then the brake on the winching side as a winch brake.

Sorry, just a bit bored.

[Shadow]

I was thinking about this some more (and yes it's stupid), but let's say you used an open diff for this, and then utilised the original brakes... you could use the brake on the non-winching side of the diff as a sort of clutch for the winch... the more braking, the more power... and then the brake on the winching side as a winch brake.

Sorry, just a bit bored.

sounds like a good idea, but sounds big


I dont think the PTO output of a transfer case is strong enough to take a really loaded up winch pull. Then again I think they are talking about putting them on suzuki's? in which if they are using a hilux/cruiser transfer then it probably is strong enough for the weight they are dealing with.


What if you used your dual transfer cases, kept the front output shaft of the second TC, rotated the second case about 90 degress so now you have a full strength output which you could drive a winch from >_<. Now that would be a powerful winch (100+HP WINCH) lol.

[frp88]

i gess the aim is for more line speed.That is cool in mud but not if you are going over rocks I think anymore than 15m a minute is pushing the it.

[BabyGodzillaGTi-R]

Wondering would something like this would work in your Winch Challenges down under?
I'm still wondering if i should go PTO or good old proven Warn that crawls 4 eva hehe.

[Shadow]

Wondering would something like this would work in your Winch Challenges down under?
I'm still wondering if i should go PTO or good old proven Warn that crawls 4 eva hehe.

they are about the same as far as line speed goes AFAIK

[ISUZUROVER]

That winch must be incredibly fast (and probably uncontrollable!!!).

AFAIK the 120Y had either 3.9:1 or 4.1:1 diffs (so 4:1 for simplicity). Most PTOs run off the gearbox (before any T-case reduction), so lets assume you have a box with 4:1 first gear (lower than most).

This would mean you have a winch with a lowest possible ratio of 16:1!!! This is assuming that you weld the diff. If you had an open diff and just hold the other axle stationary, the diff would be twice as fast (2:1) - so 8:1 total...

The only way I can see that it would be usable, would be if you used Chimpboy's suggestion and kept an open diff with a brake on the non-drum side, and used that as a clutch to limit the speed. But you would need very fine control and would probably burn them out all the time...

[ISUZUROVER]

i gess the aim is for more line speed.That is cool in mud but not if you are going over rocks I think anymore than 15m a minute is pushing the it.

The winch in question could be run at 15m/min, but only if the engine rpm could be kept at 1000 rpm or lower and the drum was only 2" diameter.

[Shadow]

yeh with an un-welded diff and braking the opposite side axle you would eliminate ratios all together.

Unfortunately you would be controlling the torque not the line speed and everytime the cable experiences more tension(axle torque) the line speed would slow dramatically, much more dramatically than what an electric winch experiences when tension varies.

Ultimate would be a line speed of about 20m/min at 2000RPM (engine) (can always go faster in higher gears!)

That would require a drive ratio of 30:1, at 750RPM (engine the winch would be going at a line speed of about ~4m/min (~2m/min with cable fully out, ~8m/min with it fully in)

(10m/min and 4m/min calculated allowing drum diametre of 10cm, about half spool?)

Landcruiser has a 1st gear of 4.84:1, so that means you need a diff with a ratio of 6:1 (any little cars have this ratio?)

http://www.ptohydraulics.com/pto.htm

they make PTO units and many of them are listed with configurable internal ratioes, if you could get one with even a 1:2 ratio, that would mean a diff of 3.9:1 would be very suitable

[Shadow]

so if you can get the ratio right, you could just weld the diff and it would be no different to any other PTO unit, you control the speed with your foot, AFAIK normal PTO winches do not have a brake?

[dogbreath_48]

so if you can get the ratio right, you could just weld the diff and it would be no different to any other PTO unit, you control the speed with your foot, AFAIK normal PTO winches do not have a brake?

Normal PTO's use a worm drive so can't be driven 'backwards' (i.e. can't be driven by the cable).

-Stu

[Shadow]

hmm

so instead of a diff, maybe we should look for a worm drive with a ratio of 30:1 which can take a good 100HP.

Dont really know what uses a worm drive other than custom industrial stuff.

Anyone know of some common(cheap) strong worm drive's?

[Shadow]

or you could just get oine of these



008 Series
Output Torque Rating
25,000 in. lbs.
Ratios
15:1, 27:1, 30:1, 39:1, and 44:1
Center Distance
4.63 inches

http://www.gearproducts.com/wormgear.htm

[toughnut]

The winches on that site are used heaps in the winch challenge stuff over in Malaysia and other countries. They are fast but arn't allowed in Australian comps cause they don't have a braking system. Still wouldn't be allowed the way chimpboy said it either unless the brake was automatic for safety.

[Shadow]

The winches on that site are used heaps in the winch challenge stuff over in Malaysia and other countries. They are fast but arn't allowed in Australian comps cause they don't have a braking system. Still wouldn't be allowed the way chimpboy said it either unless the brake was automatic for safety.

what does a toyota PTO use for a braking system?

[dogbreath_48]

what does a toyota PTO use for a braking system?

Normal PTO's use a worm drive so can't be driven 'backwards' (i.e. can't be driven by the cable).

I assume it passes for a brake?

Do hydraulic winch brakes work the same as leccy ones?

-Stu

[toughnut]

The winches on that site are used heaps in the winch challenge stuff over in Malaysia and other countries. They are fast but arn't allowed in Australian comps cause they don't have a braking system. Still wouldn't be allowed the way chimpboy said it either unless the brake was automatic for safety.

what does a toyota PTO use for a braking system?

I have no idea. Anyone???

[dogbreath_48]

The winches on that site are used heaps in the winch challenge stuff over in Malaysia and other countries. They are fast but arn't allowed in Australian comps cause they don't have a braking system. Still wouldn't be allowed the way chimpboy said it either unless the brake was automatic for safety.

what does a toyota PTO use for a braking system?

I have no idea. Anyone???

[ISUZUROVER]

Landcruiser has a 1st gear of 4.84:1, so that means you need a diff with a ratio of 6:1 (any little cars have this ratio?)

Weren't early 4x2 hiluxes and hiaces fitted with a 5.7:1 ratio? Not very strong but more than strong enough.

You could mid-mount the winch (behind the T-case facing the back) and run it through a snatch block to the front, giving a further 2:1 reduction in line speed... You would want to build a cage around it in case it ever broke though...

[toughnut]

Landcruiser has a 1st gear of 4.84:1, so that means you need a diff with a ratio of 6:1 (any little cars have this ratio?)

Weren't early 4x2 hiluxes and hiaces fitted with a 5.7:1 ratio? Not very strong but more than strong enough.

You could mid-mount the winch (behind the T-case facing the back) and run it through a snatch block to the front, giving a further 2:1 reduction in line speed... You would want to build a cage around it in case it ever broke though...

It would only be a 2:1 reduction if you did a double line pull. Otherwise it would be the same line speed.

[1MadEngineer]

what does a toyota PTO use for a braking system?

Normal PTO's use a worm drive so can't be driven 'backwards' (i.e. can't be driven by the cable).

I assume it passes for a brake?

Do hydraulic winch brakes work the same as leccy ones?

-Stu

from an engineering point of view, the ratio in a worm drive cannot be overdriven and therefore is considered a brake.

in a hydraulic winch they use a pilot opperated counterbalance valve ( or load holding valve)

[Shadow]

what does a toyota PTO use for a braking system?

Normal PTO's use a worm drive so can't be driven 'backwards' (i.e. can't be driven by the cable).

I assume it passes for a brake?

Do hydraulic winch brakes work the same as leccy ones?

-Stu

from an engineering point of view, the ratio in a worm drive cannot be overdriven and therefore is considered a brake.

in a hydraulic winch they use a pilot opperated counterbalance valve ( or load holding valve)

yep i realise this, but someone said that factory PTO winches are allowed in the comps, but the ones i posted a link to are not. The ones i posted a linK to are also worm driven, and thus cannot be driven from the spool, yet they are excluded from comps.

Does a factory PTO winch have an extra brake. IU had a look at a thomas unit today and it has a very large section on both sides of the spool, only one of these will contain the worm driven gearset, so perhaps the other side also has a brake?

[dogbreath_48]

what does a toyota PTO use for a braking system?

Normal PTO's use a worm drive so can't be driven 'backwards' (i.e. can't be driven by the cable).

I assume it passes for a brake?

Do hydraulic winch brakes work the same as leccy ones?

-Stu

from an engineering point of view, the ratio in a worm drive cannot be overdriven and therefore is considered a brake.

in a hydraulic winch they use a pilot opperated counterbalance valve ( or load holding valve)

yep i realise this, but someone said that factory PTO winches are allowed in the comps, but the ones i posted a link to are not. The ones i posted a linK to are also worm driven, and thus cannot be driven from the spool, yet they are excluded from comps.

Does a factory PTO winch have an extra brake. IU had a look at a thomas unit today and it has a very large section on both sides of the spool, only one of these will contain the worm driven gearset, so perhaps the other side also has a brake?

My thomas 8000lb has a worm gear in one end and a dog clutch in the other, no brakes.

[Shadow]

The winches on that site are used heaps in the winch challenge stuff over in Malaysia and other countries. They are fast but arn't allowed in Australian comps cause they don't have a braking system. Still wouldn't be allowed the way chimpboy said it either unless the brake was automatic for safety.

so are factory (toyota thomas nissan) PTO wanches not allowed aswell?

[BabyGodzillaGTi-R]

Wow this has stirred up abit of discussion.
I'm thinking of this winch for the sake of reliability coz i'm getting a bit fed up of the motor burning, to the internal brakes going crazy and the ever failing solenoids.

But in terms of safety i know it's dangerous.
Dunno if u've seen any Rainforest Challenge videos. I think ppl been toying with this winch for 5 years here.
I guess it's because of this winch that really give the foreign competitors a hard time.
I guess line speed is dependant how heavy your right foot is.

Was shocked how freaking fast when i was recovered by one of these winches the other day.