CCDA for Cliffhanger, Pursuit & Nav Nites - your thought

[Hobzee]

Guys (and Celia), we have started the ball rolling with a view to getting Cliffhanger, Nav Nite and Piranha Pursuit sanctioned by CCDA with vehicle specs per the Vic Winch. Probably not the Feb/Mar Nav Nite this year as it is so close and already we have 28 rigs (many not with roll bars). But certainly the next one.

The mission is to raise the bar in professionalism and to have a two way supportive relationship. I would expect we would see a more competitive field and marshal support at these 3 events. We would round up maybe another 100+ CCDA members and I think that = a win win.

This would mean that these events would require minimum roll bar and harnesses and helmets. However, these are not top level roll bar requirements and I believe that the roll bar requirements are a lot less strict. You would also need to become a CCDA member to compete or marshal. (I expect we will look after marshals with $ and encourage/assist with marshal training in CCDA).

Would we have the support of the majority of people if we went down this path? Your constructive ideas welcome.

Hobzee

[wrksux]

might that not stop a lot of people from doing a nav run since for many its there first comp like event.

[The Fish]

Hobzee, I think this is a great idea. Having done the earlier NavNites I think its important that vehicles have at least a 4 point cage and helmets.

What shape would a vehicle without any roll over protection be in if it had a similar roll over to Darren Green's?

I know many will say it all comes at extra $$$$$$$ which many at the entry level will struggle to afford. Unfortunately accidents/roll overs will happen and you can't put a price on someones life. There just shouldn't be any compromises when it comes to safety.

This is definately a win-win situation for all involved. Well done Hobzee

[Ruffy]

might that not stop a lot of people from doing a nav run since for many its there first comp like event.

I don't think that Navruns will be sanctioned. Jus tthe more 'Hardcore comps'

Hobzee, I think it's a great idea and a long time coming. In today's day and age we need to think safety more than ever before. It is easily justafiable to make this move. The last navnite we ran a stage and Kermmit fell over on our stage. The crew were the ONLY crew in the comp to be wearing helmets!!! A helmet, roll over protection, harness's and wrist restraints are not expensive item's when you look at the money we spend on our rigs. You could have all of the afore metioned items for the same price as two lockers.
It's not about litigation, it's about every competitor going home to there family safely. I can't see your events suffering from a move like this.
You'll probably know i've been campaigning for this all year so i'm wrapped you've brought it to the table.
Good move guys.

[NavRun]

As Ruffy was saying: Navruns and the Amazing Race are exempt.

It is only the more hard core type comps of Pursuit, Navnites and Cliffhanger.

Rudes

[MissDrew]

Would they be A or B class events?

[mudtrekka]

Guido and I competed in 06 Cliffhanger ,we were in A class which ran no roll cages and were doing speed /times close to the C class which need to have cages/harnesses. So my point is YES cages must be compulsery for any timed event no matter which class it is.Bring in CCDA.

[Hobzee]

I guess we need to sort out with CCDA which is which. I get confused too. At this stage we are talking Vic Winch spec, so almost any type of substantial roll cage i believe. Perhaps a Vic Winch or CCDA guru can contribute here. I know for Ateco and OBC, a certified 6pt roll cage is required and that's not the level I am chasing, although these cars can certainly compete.

And per above, this would not apply to Navrun weekends or Amazing Race as they are club spec events around navigation and not such hard driving.

Hobzee

[MissDrew]

Vic Winch is 4 point cage and harnesses are not needed.

[MD4x4]

I think it is crap!


Basically my understanding in NSW is that no car is really legal to be road registered with a 6 point cage even if it is Engineered.

I don't understand why event organisers insist on registered vehicles competing when the vehicles are forced to make modifications which are not legal in their state.

My vehicle is Engineered for it's lift but I have no cage. I use my vehicle for all sorts of recreational 4wdriving as well as competition. I have 5 in my family and need all the space I can get. A roll cage is not practical for this vehicle in everyday life.

If you make cages compulsory then you put the competition out of reach for those that cant afford a second car as a dedicated comp car.

CCDA has an A Class which does not need a cage. Why can't you have the 3 classes at your events.

My Rant!

MD

[XTREME MMM]

My Xtreme Winch Challenge was the first to introduce all the safety spec etc cage, helmets, harness and even window nets nearly 3 years before CCDA even introduced these spec into some of their class.

I beleive that all timed events or events with any vehicle set up stages should run full cages, harness, helmets and nets. Some of you talk about the vehicle being not legal with a cage in. Lets be honest, regardless of what state we are in 95% of the vehicles would be classed as "Not Complying" with the states road rules.

It is the event organisers that are trying to protect their entrants, so if you want to go and play in their events fit all the safety specs or sit on the sidelines.

Regards
David

[MD4x4]

That is fine David.

Do all vehicles need to be road registered in your competition?

I think cages are great. But why insist on road registration? If you drive the vehicle on the road and then get sent for a blue slip by the police in NSW then the Blue Slip agent will not pass the vehicle with a cage in it.

There should be some form of rego specifically for comp vehicles or event organisers should not insist on road registered vehicles.

The rules seem to say "yes we are trying to make your vehicle safe for you to compete but we are sorry we are asking you to break the law to do so and thereby making it illegal to be on the road."

MD

[krimnl]

That is fine David.

Do all you vehicles need to be road registered in your competition?

I think cages are great? But why insist on road registration. If you drive the vehicle on the road and then get sent for a blue slip by the police then the Blue Slip agent will not pass the vehicle with a cage in it.

There should be some form of rego specifically for comp vehicles.

The rules seem to say "yes we are trying to make your vehicle safe for you to compete but we are sorry we are asking you to break the law to do so."

MD

saftey isnt something that should be short cutted! these rules are made for a reason. and roll cages and helmets are required in our sport for added saftey.
I have attended an event where a competitor has passed away from an accident. believe me its not a nice thing to have to deal with,the more we can do to stop this happenening again the better . BRING ON CCDA!!!
I have got all the saftey gear in my comp truck and have had 2 very major roll overs i am thankful that the roll cages were fitted .
if you are concerned about being 100% road legal you can use a bolt in cams approved cage , or a welded in 4 point with bolt in front section.

and as for being road registered . as many of our events require transport on public roads registration is required. even rally cars / safari cars need to be registered due to transport stages

[Luxy]

I can not afford to keep up with the big boys in this game (even though I would love too!!!), but I do participate in the navruns which I love.
With the harder events, more risks and challenges are taken, which I think more protection and more safety awreness issues are to be realised.

As said earlier.... for the same price as a couple of lockers, you could have your vehicle set up with the appropiate safety equipment onboard.. ie 4 point roll cages & helmets.

I have Marshalled the outback Challenge and saw Darren Green and co take a bloody good highspeed barrell in 2004 roll at denin an come away unscaved and walk away (maybe a bit sorry and bruised!), so I thought it be a good idea to do. Sure the navnights might be not as high speed as a dash across the sand as they did, but it proves these safety precautions work! (and Hobzee blasting across the finish line with seconds to spare on one stage, that was a sight to see!!! )
Another thumbs up for the CCDA!

[ludacris]

I think a roll cage is a must in any EVENT where we are pushing our selves to get to a waypoint or what ever. if your state does not allow you to have a full cage then get it built to bolt in. No big deal at all.

As for vehicle needing to be registered I can understand where you are coming from and maybe event organisers should look at organising events where vehicles do not need to be registered or unregistered to compete.

As for me I choose to keep my truck registered and just trailor it to events. I am also looking at rebuilding the race truck so that it is competitive and also road legal. The biggest thing is suspension that will need to be changed over before and after every event, roll cage to be bolt in past front seats, exo cage to be bolt on, all indicators and lights to be fixed if smashed, tyres to be changed before and after each event and to keep on top of presentation of the vehicle.

LudaCris

[beretta]

I vote go with CCDA Hobzee. Roll cage and harnesses are a must, as a navi I know I feel a whole lot safer in a truck with a full cage, I've done comps in trucks with and without cages. In the ones without cages I always worried aout rollovers after seeing one roll and get pancaked down to the window sills.

IMHO for competitions, if this sport is going to maintain it's momentum then safety items like cages and harness should be non-negotiable, I like how people are very concious in this sport of keeping it accessible to the average dude, but some measures are a must.
Riding enduros on the dirt bikes we had to be ambulance members also, wonder if it will ever get to that stage in 4wd comps.

[turbo gu]

I think it is crap!


Basically my understanding in NSW is that no car is really legal to be road registered with a 6 point cage even if it is Engineered.

I don't understand why event organisers insist on registered vehicles competing when the vehicles are forced to make modifications which are not legal in their state.

My vehicle is Engineered for it's lift but I have no cage. I use my vehicle for all sorts of recreational 4wdriving as well as competition. I have 5 in my family and need all the space I can get. A roll cage is not practical for this vehicle in everyday life.

If you make cages compulsory then you put the competition out of reach for those that cant afford a second car as a dedicated comp car.

CCDA has an A Class which does not need a cage. Why can't you have the 3 classes at your events.

My Rant!

MD

i think with the right cage work built close enough to the body work you can get them legal. the main problem is with side intrusion bars from b pillar to a pillar.
As for competing without a cage in nearly any event is nuts. something like blackrat or nissan trials where you are competing in different tracks isn't so bad in standard or modified classes but once you step up to an open or outlaw class you are mad not to. how much do you value your life?
As for cars being regoed it helps with insurances as some accidents are still able to be claimed thru the greenslip insurance. It also takes responsabilty of vehicle legality off the organisers as they are saying if you bring a regoed car to an event it is safe and legal
Pretty much any form of motorsports governing bodies ask for certain safety measures after a certain speed or class makes road regoed cars hard to keep road legal

[krimnl]

I vote go with CCDA Hobzee. Roll cage and harnesses are a must, as a navi I know I feel a whole lot safer in a truck with a full cage, I've done comps in trucks with and without cages. In the ones without cages I always worried aout rollovers after seeing one roll and get pancaked down to the window sills.

IMHO for competitions, if this sport is going to maintain it's momentum then safety items like cages and harness should be non-negotiable, I like how people are very concious in this sport of keeping it accessible to the average dude, but some measures are a must.
Riding enduros on the dirt bikes we had to be ambulance members also, wonder if it will ever get to that stage in 4wd comps.

you need to ba an ambulance member to do outback.

[beretta]

I vote go with CCDA Hobzee. Roll cage and harnesses are a must, as a navi I know I feel a whole lot safer in a truck with a full cage, I've done comps in trucks with and without cages. In the ones without cages I always worried aout rollovers after seeing one roll and get pancaked down to the window sills.

IMHO for competitions, if this sport is going to maintain it's momentum then safety items like cages and harness should be non-negotiable, I like how people are very concious in this sport of keeping it accessible to the average dude, but some measures are a must.
Riding enduros on the dirt bikes we had to be ambulance members also, wonder if it will ever get to that stage in 4wd comps.

you need to ba an ambulance member to do outback.

There ya go, loks like I'll have to renew it for this year then, cos we're goin! Thanks for that Krimnl.

[Big Red Toy]

Great idea Hobzee

Myself & my navi spent the night before the last navnite building a Rollbar just for that night as you never know what can happen in winch events.

Helmets: Pretty much mandatory if you've got an internal cage to prevent smackin your head on the front rails.

I reckon window nets wouldn't be a bad thing to phase in either... especially after the last navnite, however these are great for stopping sticks coming in an open window too

As for ambulance insurance... BEST $60 i ever spent!!!!! Helicopter ride home from Mt Buller when i Busted my spine in 2005 ... Covered! Otherwise if you hurt yourself & in need of a heli ride you might be telling other people oh no can't do that not covered & will cause a huge inconvenience for everyone else & end up costing more than the $60 in the first place so everyone pay up & be covered, i know i always will

[Ruffy]

As for ambulance insurance... BEST $60 i ever spent!!!!! Helicopter ride home from Mt Buller when i Busted my spine in 2005 ... Covered!

And i've always thought you were a spineless prick!!!

Nah too true Andrew.. Ambo cover should be a must for all comps i reckon. $120 bucks for a family, 60 bucks for just an adult. Bargain.

As for cages and rego issues.. As a competitor it's your responsibility to deal with it. Safety rules are there for a reason... and the reason is your scone.. If you can't see that then you are better off watching from the sideline..
I'm sorry if you can't afford it.. But that's not the organisers problem.. I would love an M3 BMW.. But guess what.. I can't afford one.. Is that BMW's fault and they should reduce the price for me???????????????
Rules are Rules.. and unless you've got the nuts to step forward, take the responsibility for other peoples actions and pay the costs then play within the rules!
Rant only just begining!
Dan

[Ossie]

Great idea Hobzee, as always the details need to be worked out, but improving the saftey of the whole sport is a good thing.

My theory is it is our lives at risk when the clock starts, and a better standard for All makes the event safer for All.

Jason

[cebarry]

Having had another successful "navfun" practice up at Stockton yest. where all the cars were basically daily drivers......if these guys & gals wanted to then go on and compete in basic Navruns (not Cliffhanger), which I'm sure they would at present, then I don't think they would be prepared to upgrade them with rollbars and harnesses.
Lets not forget that the majority of 4wheelers are not going to modify their vehicles to that extent and don't want to go down the hardcore path.
So how about keeping a few events for club class.....so everyone can have a go.

Celia & Eugene.

[NavRun]

Dear Celia,

We stress again, this is only for our Navnites, Cliffhanger and Pursuit, not our Navruns and Amazing Race which is an event for everyone.

So don't worry, Navrun has and will always have events to suit all.

Rudes

[GQ Bear]

oh Poo!! Looks like i won't be driving in this years Pursuit after all. oh well, bring on 2008

Rudes and Hobzee, it's the right way to go with events. Keep up the good work

[cebarry]

Cool Rudes....and absolutely for the more advanced stuff, extra safety precausions is the go.....
Looking forward to Sunny Corner.....

C & E

[sierrajim]

window nets suck!!!!

Sticks get caught on them and they're a PITA to mount on a daily driver. Wrist restraints and harnesses stop you from coming out the window and still allow full use of the vehicle.

Wrist restraints are easy to drive with and also stop people from tring to hold their vehicle up in case of a roll over.

[Ruffy]

window nets suck!!!!

Sticks get caught on them and they're a PITA to mount on a daily driver. Wrist restraints and harnesses stop you from coming out the window and still allow full use of the vehicle.

Wrist restraints are easy to drive with and also stop people from tring to hold their vehicle up in case of a roll over.

I completely Agree.... Wrist restraints are far better than window nets.
Wrist restraints are also much easier to deal with in a roll over situation from both a driver and rescuer point of view.
Cheers, Dan

[beretta]

window nets suck!!!!

Sticks get caught on them and they're a PITA to mount on a daily driver. Wrist restraints and harnesses stop you from coming out the window and still allow full use of the vehicle.

Wrist restraints are easy to drive with and also stop people from tring to hold their vehicle up in case of a roll over.

I completely Agree.... Wrist restraints are far better than window nets.
Wrist restraints are also much easier to deal with in a roll over situation from both a driver and rescuer point of view.
Cheers, Dan

You just like being tied up!

Agree window nets suck badly!

[GQ Bear]

Hey Hobzee and Rudes, just a thought. How about structuring events to accomodate all classes. Something like;

A class - navrun events, amazing race, no restrictions

B class - Piranha Pursuit, winch, 35's, harnesses and helmets, no cage or hoop at worst

C class - Cliffhanger, navnites, full CCDA requirements

just a thought