Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Troopy93 wrote:I have never driven an auto offroad but go wheeling with a few and the normal topic of conversation is usually along the lines of "how's the transmission temp mate, or i gotta stop for a while cos mines overheating" this is always the auto brigade

How many of them use low range to climb hills, and how many just leave it in high range? The first lets the transfer case multiply the torque, the second forces the torque converter to do it.

don't learn the technique twice - just go auto straight up.

As for lockers - if you can afford them, just put them in. driving technique with an auto and lockers is totally different that open or manual and open. do it right once.

Steve.

From my perspective having had manual then auto then manual then auto again off-road is that that they both require different techniques at times and there's nothing wrong in choosing either option as long as you drive them appropriately, By choice though I will now always prefer to have a well set up auto although I am just undergoing a new build that is a manual but eventually the plan is to convert it to auto. Correct gearing makes a world of difference off-road in both manuals and autos but the control you can achieve in the well setup auto is along with the reduced shock loads on the driveline makes it the winner for me.

I think it costs too much money to throw and auto in. You are better off spending the money once.

A lot of fun can be had on open centres, it makes the usual easy tracks with lockers a challenge.

4WD Stuff wrote:I think it costs too much money to throw and auto in. You are better off spending the money once.

I agree - I'm "just throwing an auto" in a Sierra ATM - it's the easiest sort of swap as it bolts to the 1.6 that's in this car, but shifter, cooler, lines TV cable, custom jackshaft..... its a lot of work. If you can start out with an auto you're miles in front.

A lot of fun can be had on open centres, it makes the usual easy tracks with lockers a challenge.

True, but if you've learnt on open diffs it's hard to ever learn to slow down enough and use the traction of the lockers, and auto's love to crawl stuff on traction rather than "dump the clutch and hang on" with a manual. My Zook is welded rear/open front ATM and it's hard on the car, hard on axles, and I'm grumpy not driving stuff I should be able too. Open diffs also start to make people obsess about articulation rather than traction and balance.

Just my 2C on that, each to their own - personally, If I'm locked I just take stupider lines to have more fun.

Steve.

Gwagensteve wrote: personally, If I'm locked I just take stupider lines to have more fun.

Steve.

Hence your avatar

cj wrote:

Gwagensteve wrote: personally, If I'm locked I just take stupider lines to have more fun.

Steve.

Hence your avatar

Yeah, you take the stupider lines, get stuck and then some upstart says to his mate that he made it further then you on open centres.

4WD Stuff wrote:Yeah, you take the stupider lines, get stuck and then some upstart says to his mate that he made it further then you on open centres.

Hell no - we all stop, go ooh ahh, get in each others way taking pictures, retrieve the spare wheel, try and figure out how come the Coke cans still the right way up and quietly note to NOT try that

-Scott- wrote:

Troopy93 wrote:I have never driven an auto offroad but go wheeling with a few and the normal topic of conversation is usually along the lines of "how's the transmission temp mate, or i gotta stop for a while cos mines overheating" this is always the auto brigade

How many of them use low range to climb hills, and how many just leave it in high range? The first lets the transfer case multiply the torque, the second forces the torque converter to do it.

Yeah they are using low range, it just seems that the autos have more of an overheating problem than manuals in the group we go out with.

An overheating auto is just not setup well! I have 280rwkw running through a Patrol auto and that doesn't overheat. It has a modified valve body and a good cooler, but that is what you have to do to get the reliability.
No has tried to say it is cheap to get an auto to do what we are talking about. My auto has cost quite a bit but the added performance makes it a worthwhile cost. I decided the auto is more important than a PTO so I'm one of very very few guys in NZ using an electric winch.
Like everything to do with 4WD's, it is a compromise and nothing is right for everyone.

The autos start over heating because people leave them in drive when they go off-road, it changes gears constantly every few seconds, they need to lock it in first/second/third atleast

Troopy93 wrote:I have never driven an auto offroad but go wheeling with a few and the normal topic of conversation is usually along the lines of "how's the transmission temp mate, or i gotta stop for a while cos mines overheating" this is always the auto brigade and on 90% of trips where there are some decent hills to climb. Me i'll stay in the manual and drive downhill in 2nd low or 1st low at around 2500-3000 revs just so they dont run up my ass..

So a decent cooler would not help there obviously ..
If they are running up your arse, well I am guessing thats more due to inexpeiance .. If they knew what they were doing they would leave a bigger gap before starting wouldn't they.

Troopy93 wrote:

-Scott- wrote:

Troopy93 wrote:I have never driven an auto offroad but go wheeling with a few and the normal topic of conversation is usually along the lines of "how's the transmission temp mate, or i gotta stop for a while cos mines overheating" this is always the auto brigade

How many of them use low range to climb hills, and how many just leave it in high range? The first lets the transfer case multiply the torque, the second forces the torque converter to do it.

Yeah they are using low range, it just seems that the autos have more of an overheating problem than manuals in the group we go out with.

Who the hell are you wheeling with Gaz?? Even on that 40+ deg high country day my Auto never over heated. Yeah under the bonnet was so hot it was boiling the washer bottle water!!! but I never had issues with the Auto. Everyone pulled over for a break, it was like 30min non stop lowrange crawling in 40+ deg heat.
Even when in high range second wheeling between tracks with 37" creepy's and stock 4.1 in the diff!!! my auto never ever gets over 100!
Get it right mate!

Just for the record, unless you've owned and driven both I'm not sure your opinion counts.
I have 86 YN67 and now 96 FZJ80 and I will ALWAYS drive an AUTO off road from now on.

LilBlkDuck wrote:Just for the record, unless you've owned and driven both I'm not sure your opinion counts.
I have 86 YN67 and now 96 FZJ80 and I will ALWAYS drive an AUTO off road from now on.

Driving off road but not needing low range doesn't count either

4WD Stuff wrote:

LilBlkDuck wrote:Just for the record, unless you've owned and driven both I'm not sure your opinion counts.
I have 86 YN67 and now 96 FZJ80 and I will ALWAYS drive an AUTO off road from now on.

Driving off road but not needing low range doesn't count either

WTF? All my 4B's see plenty of offroad. Only on road to get to the stompin grounds.

Any way we all know that Manual drivers are G A Y, they like the feel of a little knob in there hand, thats the real reason they wont make the T-Bar / Grip shift conversion.
You guys with Hurst shifters are excluded, the rest of ya's are Poofs!

But aren't Hurst shifters a real pain to get into reverse?
Not necessarily a good thing but I can just slamp it straight into reverse as well. You just have to remember that when hitting 3rd at full noise. I get the feeling if I got it wrong there may be a slight reaction!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've played with some hurst shifters and I've been very unimpressed with the function and feel of them.

A have heard that some people on Pirate don't think Art-Carr shifters are much chop either but from a user friendliness point of view in an off road car they seem much much better. after all, they are a modification of a commercial truck design rather than a drag design.

Steve.

4WD Stuff wrote:I think it costs too much money to throw and auto in. You are better off spending the money once.

A lot of fun can be had on open centres, it makes the usual easy tracks with lockers a challenge.

and causes undue wear and tear to the vehicle never mind the amount of track damage

Gwagensteve wrote:I've played with some hurst shifters and I've been very unimpressed with the function and feel of them.

A have heard that some people on Pirate don't think Art-Carr shifters are much chop either but from a user friendliness point of view in an off road car they seem much much better. after all, they are a modification of a commercial truck design rather than a drag design.

Steve.

explain please

different brand name and type of auto shifters. Google is your friend

Hurst and B&M are the main suppliers of aftermarket auto trans shifters. Most chain auto stores sell them. There are lots of different styles, from T-Bar types with nice shrouds that blend in, to all manner of billet, ratchet drag race blingotry.

Art Carr sell a modified Hughes truck shifter. This does not have a detent button like a normal auto, instead it uses a convoluted path like merc has been doing for years, so to move through the gears the lever has to be worked from side to side so it can't be bumped into a gear.

The Art-Carr shifter is preferred for off road cars as there are no springs/rods etc to jam, and it is much harder to "miss" a gear and fly though to P when you were going for R etc.

Also, Art-Carr shifters can have the gate path changed to group gears in a stright path - say R/N/D so you can hit R really quick.

The catch is all of the above shifters are really only designed for North American autos - C4/C6 T350/400/700R4, 4L60/80 etc. They may be able to be modified with a japanese auto, but there's no guarantee.

Steve.

macca81 wrote:

Gwagensteve wrote:I've played with some hurst shifters and I've been very unimpressed with the function and feel of them.

A have heard that some people on Pirate don't think Art-Carr shifters are much chop either but from a user friendliness point of view in an off road car they seem much much better. after all, they are a modification of a commercial truck design rather than a drag design.

Steve.

explain please

Art-Car shifter
http://www.4x4wire.com/jeep/tech/trans/ ... /img17.jpg


Hurst Shifter
http://www.northernautoparts.com/Images ... 162001.jpg



Layto....

grimbo wrote:

4WD Stuff wrote:I think it costs too much money to throw and auto in. You are better off spending the money once.

A lot of fun can be had on open centres, it makes the usual easy tracks with lockers a challenge.

and causes undue wear and tear to the vehicle never mind the amount of track damage

X2 driving stuff with open diffs "for fun" is destructive and dumb.

Steve.

Gwagensteve wrote:

grimbo wrote:

4WD Stuff wrote:I think it costs too much money to throw and auto in. You are better off spending the money once.

A lot of fun can be had on open centres, it makes the usual easy tracks with lockers a challenge.

and causes undue wear and tear to the vehicle never mind the amount of track damage

X2 driving stuff with open diffs "for fun" is destructive and dumb.

Steve.

Sorry to the guys who have open centres and are having fun off road, YOU ARE DUMB.

It sounds like you two do the easy tracks with your lockers and never do tracks that challenge you and never spin a wheel in your locked extreme machines.

Guys I agree with you to not stuff up pristine land but this isn’t what I suggest and fun can be had in the appropriate places.

If you want to start a thread about how to drive and easy track with lockers be my guest but please not on Outerlimits, please don’t bring our reputation down and further. At least any further then the 12000+ posts you two have done…



To bring it back on topic. I suggest you get an auto because wheel spin can be controlled more so less damage is done to the environment.

4WD Stuff wrote:

Gwagensteve wrote:

grimbo wrote:

4WD Stuff wrote:I think it costs too much money to throw and auto in. You are better off spending the money once.

A lot of fun can be had on open centres, it makes the usual easy tracks with lockers a challenge.

and causes undue wear and tear to the vehicle never mind the amount of track damage

X2 driving stuff with open diffs "for fun" is destructive and dumb.

Steve.

Sorry to the guys who have open centres and are having fun off road, YOU ARE DUMB.

It sounds like you two do the easy tracks with your lockers and never do tracks that challenge you and never spin a wheel in your locked extreme machines.

Guys I agree with you to not stuff up pristine land but this isn’t what I suggest and fun can be had in the appropriate places.

If you want to start a thread about how to drive and easy track with lockers be my guest but please not on Outerlimits, please don’t bring our reputation down and further. At least any further then the 12000+ posts you two have done…



To bring it back on topic. I suggest you get an auto because wheel spin can be controlled more so less damage is done to the environment.

that is not how your post came across, it implied that it is better to have open diffs and tackle the harder stuff as it makes it more challenging. Not that having open diffs in no way should stop you enjoying 4wding. Two very different things

X2. There is no other way to interperet your post 4WD stuff.

Yes, for someone learning, on easy terrain, open diffs are fine. (so are manuals!) while saying a track that's easy in a car with lockers is "more fun" with open diffs it's also more destructive of the environment and the vehicle (just like a manual)

Yes, wheelspin can be controlled better with an an auto, or effectively eliminated with lockers. Why make an easy track look hard?

Steve.

I said

A lot of fun can be had on open centres, it makes the usual easy tracks with lockers a challenge.

This doesn't say it is better but don't necessarily rush out and spend the mortgage money on lockers. It is better to have lockers if you can afford it but have fun with what you have.

Next time quote what I said and then list the disadvantages. It is presumptuous to call something dumb on such a broad statement. It is even better to list the advantages and disadvantages and then give your opinion and why.

I am not sure where you wheel in Melbourne but in QLD we don't wheel where you have to fill out an environmental impact statement before you enter. It is in Quarries, quarries to be, land that will be bull dozed in a few years to make way for all the Victorians moving to QLD, and in 4WD Parks.

Yes, for someone learning, on easy terrain, open diffs are fine. (so are manuals!) while saying a track that's easy in a car with lockers is "more fun" with open diffs it's also more destructive of the environment and the vehicle (just like a manual)

You are presuming that I am suggesting that you wheel where you shouldn't be. When I have lockers I try harder stuff and instead of 2 wheels spinning I have 4 wheels spinning.
Often more damage is done with open centres and road tyres but you can damage the environment a lot quicker with mud terrains and lockers.

Sure you can damage your vehicle spinning your wheels with open centres but you can also damage it with lockers, eg axles, CV's etc.

Gwagensteve you said yourself

Just my 2C on that, each to their own - personally, If I'm locked I just take stupider lines to have more fun.

All good but this is worse for the environment and damages your vehicle.

I haven't quoted Grimbo because nobody takes him seriously

The above offensive words are made in jest and not personal.

right then, thanks for that guys...


now back on topic. iv just bought me a hilux surf with an auto, anyone know what these autos are like offroad? ill find out for myself soon enuf but having never driven an auto offroad before i dont have anything to compare it to (as in, well setup auto to crap setup auto...).

was an interesting read, i do enjoy driving manual but autos for offroad is starting to sound good,
dont autos in 4x4s use more fuel??