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PUT UP OR SHUT UP
Moderator: evanstaniland
the P/A system was something Mick and I talked about at the start of 2002 season but I didn't have the time to put it togather with the safety car. the system will be used to inform competitors of driver briefings ans start times, when its not doing this we will have comentary on the tracks and we want touse someone who has an idea of whats going on and knows the cars and drivers. whoever this is will be asked to ptomote the sponsors of each car. oh and no shait bagging I don't go for that, not in public anyway.
glen
glen
v8grunt wrote:ok men I think we have a good idea for how this should run. I think i should find enough for 4 hours saturday afternoon starting at 1.00 thru to 4.30-5.00, this track should be long enough to run say 10 cars taking 20 min each. that is 3hours 20 min running to time plus extra time for line up and exit of the track. what do think, please debate this if you thionk of another way, I would probably have a few extra obsticles to use in the event if we don't have ten cars. on the other hand if we have more than ten cars we can reduce the amount of obsticles to be driven. in the event of the field not completing the track we will run the same as the ASCC and finish sunday morning.
glen
I think that the format of the Put Up or Shut Up comp should be based on lots of single obstacles as opposed to a single hard track that is 20min long (which would be more like a short course format). An obstacle should just be a very short part of a track that is really hard and would take less than 1 minute to drive.
At landcruza park there are lots of single obstacles that would be suitable although they wont necessarily be all in one place. This wont be a problem for the competitors cause we will just progress from one abstacle to the next one but it may be a PITA for spectators cause they will have to be mobile also.
Im still not sure whether we should allow reversing within an obstacle (and penalise the reverse the same as for taking another attempt) or to just not allow it and make it so that if you have to reverse then you must restart the obstacle from the beginning. I can imagine that on some obstacles that allowing reversing could be better although it does complicate things. Any thoughts??
What we really need to do is to get out there with our rigs, set some obstacles and have a bit of a play around with the format.
Maybe we should aim to do this at the ASCC practice day on the 19-20 January and work towards having the first full blown Put Up or Shut Up comp at the ASCC round 1 on the 1-2 March.
Glen what do you reckon for the timing on this??
How many starters are we going to get for this? I would imagine only about 6 or 7 at most would be in for it initially.
Sam
Sam,
i think you have a good point about the test day, it would be better to hold this as a experiment see what works and what doesn't.
I think the concept of one obsticle is awesome, we need to make an obsticle NEARLY imposible to drive, so it takes a lot of attitude and trottle to get threw.
I think we need one or two allowed reverses without penalties as you now yourself that it takes just one little rock to catch ya diff and your stuck, by allowing one or two reverses it will save having to back right back to the start.
Maybe we should look at a marker system similar to Tuff Truck but only over one obsticle.
The person to get the furtherest through wins, of course if some one does get all the way over or though a obsticle they accumulate max points.
I think this is needed to keep the compition close if you had it so you either completed the stage or you dont than it could be finished before all the tracks are run , eg if you have say 6 OBSTICLES and you had one rig that drove all six than he's the winner however 9 other rigs were also there and none of them drove the whole obsticles they all would end up on the same score 0.
This way aswell say after the first 4 obsticles and one guy drove them and no one else did than it would be pointless to run anymore tracks as it is impossible for any one else to win with only two tracks remaining.
With the marker system it would allow for a closer comp as you may have one guy getting all the way, another getting to the 90 point marker and two getting to the 60 point marker, it still shows who was the better driver but it keeps things closer and more exciting for the crowd and the spectators.
The obsticle would be only one obsticle like a big ledge or some huge boulders they have a time limit of two minutes and two reverses, no markers just out of bounds (out of bounds and your time finishes and you end up with the points at that gate).
No other rules you can rollover the finish if that gets you there.
Thats my sugestion.
Maybe at the first one we set up a obsticle and run it with a couple of different rules, see which one works the best and see which one we like the best.
What do you reackon
i think you have a good point about the test day, it would be better to hold this as a experiment see what works and what doesn't.
I think the concept of one obsticle is awesome, we need to make an obsticle NEARLY imposible to drive, so it takes a lot of attitude and trottle to get threw.
I think we need one or two allowed reverses without penalties as you now yourself that it takes just one little rock to catch ya diff and your stuck, by allowing one or two reverses it will save having to back right back to the start.
Maybe we should look at a marker system similar to Tuff Truck but only over one obsticle.
The person to get the furtherest through wins, of course if some one does get all the way over or though a obsticle they accumulate max points.
I think this is needed to keep the compition close if you had it so you either completed the stage or you dont than it could be finished before all the tracks are run , eg if you have say 6 OBSTICLES and you had one rig that drove all six than he's the winner however 9 other rigs were also there and none of them drove the whole obsticles they all would end up on the same score 0.
This way aswell say after the first 4 obsticles and one guy drove them and no one else did than it would be pointless to run anymore tracks as it is impossible for any one else to win with only two tracks remaining.
With the marker system it would allow for a closer comp as you may have one guy getting all the way, another getting to the 90 point marker and two getting to the 60 point marker, it still shows who was the better driver but it keeps things closer and more exciting for the crowd and the spectators.
The obsticle would be only one obsticle like a big ledge or some huge boulders they have a time limit of two minutes and two reverses, no markers just out of bounds (out of bounds and your time finishes and you end up with the points at that gate).
No other rules you can rollover the finish if that gets you there.
Thats my sugestion.
Maybe at the first one we set up a obsticle and run it with a couple of different rules, see which one works the best and see which one we like the best.
What do you reackon
The first put up or shut up comp should be placed in a confined area so to have maximum inpact for spectators my thoughts only. the reasoning behind this, at Black Duck Valley last year mant of the spectators came along to see this event because of the ease in which they could see the hole event, as you know the short course is run as a family event as much as it is a competitors event. this formate is very successfull and the key to long term events. all this aside like i said this is your comp and should be to your liking, my view will always project that long term thought.
on the rules for an obsicle, how about a simple 3 attemps this will put the pressure on. allow the driver to reverse only 3 time per attemp otherwise you may have a slow boring comp, what do you think ?
glen
on the rules for an obsicle, how about a simple 3 attemps this will put the pressure on. allow the driver to reverse only 3 time per attemp otherwise you may have a slow boring comp, what do you think ?
glen
how about running the short course on sat and sat night and just one stage on sun morn [ which gives the guys a chance to do the short course ]
and then start the put up or shut up with only three attempts at each single obstacle.
witches hats with tennis balls so you know if you have hit them [ you have to remember that they are there, after all, you have to remember where the rocks are ]
Obstacles not timed [ no insurance worries ]
Scored by 100 points first try, 60 points second try, 30 points third try, dnf zero points. each attempt starts from the start line.
No winching, no rock stacking, no rules apart from a "end of attempt" if you knock off a tennis ball and "end of attempt" if you cease forward movement [if driving the obstacle in reverse for some reason or other then you have to start from the start line in reverse and reverse then becomes forward motion]...just some thoughts...
EDIT: forward motion = wheels turning not just body moving as sometimes you spit a rock out and the body moves backwards.
and then start the put up or shut up with only three attempts at each single obstacle.
witches hats with tennis balls so you know if you have hit them [ you have to remember that they are there, after all, you have to remember where the rocks are ]
Obstacles not timed [ no insurance worries ]
Scored by 100 points first try, 60 points second try, 30 points third try, dnf zero points. each attempt starts from the start line.
No winching, no rock stacking, no rules apart from a "end of attempt" if you knock off a tennis ball and "end of attempt" if you cease forward movement [if driving the obstacle in reverse for some reason or other then you have to start from the start line in reverse and reverse then becomes forward motion]...just some thoughts...
EDIT: forward motion = wheels turning not just body moving as sometimes you spit a rock out and the body moves backwards.
Last edited by big red on Mon Dec 30, 2002 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Some good points being made here.
I think POSs post about trying to keep the competition close is a good one. Although i dont think that having a distance marker setup (like TT) would work cause some of the obstacles are going to be very short (say only 10metres)
This is why im thinking about the penalities associated with reversing needs may be the way to go. This way you can make a hard abstacle (say a medium size stepup) that can be driven easily from straight on into something that is very hard by making the approach more difficult (by making the approach on an angle) The really good rigs will be able to drive the step from the hard angle and the lesser rigs will have to take a reverse and hit it straight.
This way the dividing line between the close rigs comes down to the number of attempts and reverses needed to drive the abstacles. The winner will still be the rig with most obstacles driven and then if there are equal number of obstacles then it will come down to least number of attempts and reverses.
This will take care of the 100/60/30 point system cause you will get 0 penalities if completed on the first try then 1penality then 2penalites total if completed on the third try which is essencially the same thing.
If you hit a cone then the whole obstacle is rerun from the start and maybe the DNF clock is stopped to reset the obstacle and get the rig back to the start???
Sam
I think POSs post about trying to keep the competition close is a good one. Although i dont think that having a distance marker setup (like TT) would work cause some of the obstacles are going to be very short (say only 10metres)
This is why im thinking about the penalities associated with reversing needs may be the way to go. This way you can make a hard abstacle (say a medium size stepup) that can be driven easily from straight on into something that is very hard by making the approach more difficult (by making the approach on an angle) The really good rigs will be able to drive the step from the hard angle and the lesser rigs will have to take a reverse and hit it straight.
This way the dividing line between the close rigs comes down to the number of attempts and reverses needed to drive the abstacles. The winner will still be the rig with most obstacles driven and then if there are equal number of obstacles then it will come down to least number of attempts and reverses.
This will take care of the 100/60/30 point system cause you will get 0 penalities if completed on the first try then 1penality then 2penalites total if completed on the third try which is essencially the same thing.
If you hit a cone then the whole obstacle is rerun from the start and maybe the DNF clock is stopped to reset the obstacle and get the rig back to the start???
Sam
Im thinking that for most of the obstacles that there will only be a start gate and a finish gate and thats it. For some obstacles where you may want to test a bit of manouverability then you could also have some intermediate gates.
Basically i think that the gates should be easy to fit a rig between and not setup so that it becomes a test of just trying to not hit gates. The gates just define the obstacle and it is the obstacle that is the hard part and not necessarily the gates.
An example of an easily driven abstacle may be this
F............F
---------------------------ledge
S............S
This could then be turned into a much harder abstacle by doing this
F...............F
--------------------------ledge
.............. S....................S
So that the ledge is still drivable but much harder to do in one go. The lesser rigs will have to take a reverse and realign.
The whole competition would have some obstacles like this that are essencially drivable by most rigs but the gate setup will seperate those who can drive it on the difficult line and those who have to reverse and realign. Then there will be the killer obstacles that are just plain almost impossible.
Sam
Basically i think that the gates should be easy to fit a rig between and not setup so that it becomes a test of just trying to not hit gates. The gates just define the obstacle and it is the obstacle that is the hard part and not necessarily the gates.
An example of an easily driven abstacle may be this
F............F
---------------------------ledge
S............S
This could then be turned into a much harder abstacle by doing this
F...............F
--------------------------ledge
.............. S....................S
So that the ledge is still drivable but much harder to do in one go. The lesser rigs will have to take a reverse and realign.
The whole competition would have some obstacles like this that are essencially drivable by most rigs but the gate setup will seperate those who can drive it on the difficult line and those who have to reverse and realign. Then there will be the killer obstacles that are just plain almost impossible.
Sam
Adrian i think what Sam is trying to say is like when we go out to the steps behind his house we all (except Bj 
) try to drive up hard to the right. So imagine a witches hat on the top about 2foot from the left edge. That will be your gate You need to get over the top of this without slipping to the left and hitting the gate. We all know how easy the left side is. This is drivable in the one hit but only if you get it just right.
(Yes Bj i know you have tried and the seat gets uncomfortable between your bum cheeks)
) try to drive up hard to the right. So imagine a witches hat on the top about 2foot from the left edge. That will be your gate You need to get over the top of this without slipping to the left and hitting the gate. We all know how easy the left side is. This is drivable in the one hit but only if you get it just right.
(Yes Bj i know you have tried and the seat gets uncomfortable between your bum cheeks)
POS wrote:Yep thats sounding pretty good.
Its amazing what throwing a few ideas around can come up with.
Next issue the markers i know the ball on the hats is a great idea but if we are not allowed spotters than we would need something that the driver could see.
Yes definately need something taller so the driver can see it.
Maybe we should have spotters?? Makes it more of a team effort although I dont think there should be rockstacking, winching or the use of straps, this can just get too dangerous.
Having no spotters is alot simpler and it really puts the emphasis on the driver to have a look at the obstacle and drive it and not just take instructions from the ground.
Sam
Maybe only allow the spotter in once the rig is stuck or carnt complete the obstacle. The spotter can then tell the driver what the problem is and then assist the driver back to the starting line and then get the rig lined up. The spotter then gets right out of the way and the driver has another go.
What should also happen is that when the rig is stuck and wants to go for a restart (have another attempt) then time is called, the DNF clock is stopped and then the spotter can come in and assist (this way there is no pressure to rush when the spotter is assisting). Once time is called then there are no further reversing penalities etc and the rig can then have another attempt from the start (or they can give up and DNF). Same thing for a flop or roll over, the DNF clock is stopped and the spotter and driver can recover, return the rig to the start and have another go
This way all the dangerous stuff is removed from the competition cause once time is called the driving is over and the rig can be controllably recovered or assisted with out the issue of time. Only the driver and spotter can assist at this point if the rig wants another attempt on the obstacle.
Sam
EDIT : removed the winching bit. I think that if the rig carnt be recovered without a winch then they DNF.
What should also happen is that when the rig is stuck and wants to go for a restart (have another attempt) then time is called, the DNF clock is stopped and then the spotter can come in and assist (this way there is no pressure to rush when the spotter is assisting). Once time is called then there are no further reversing penalities etc and the rig can then have another attempt from the start (or they can give up and DNF). Same thing for a flop or roll over, the DNF clock is stopped and the spotter and driver can recover, return the rig to the start and have another go
This way all the dangerous stuff is removed from the competition cause once time is called the driving is over and the rig can be controllably recovered or assisted with out the issue of time. Only the driver and spotter can assist at this point if the rig wants another attempt on the obstacle.
Sam
EDIT : removed the winching bit. I think that if the rig carnt be recovered without a winch then they DNF.
OR make it that when time is called the DNF clock is stopped and anybody can assist (including designated recovery vehicles) to get the rig back to the start line for another attempt.
The reason for my thinking is this:
Say a rig attempts the obstacle and gets hung up on a rock (easily done) and carnt move forwards or backwards. Time is called, the clock is stopped and the spotter comes in, has a look and says "your hung up on a big arse rock, you need to be at least another foot over to your right on this line here (showing the driver the correct line)" They then try to recover the rig and say they carnt cause its hung up bad. They really need to use a winch to recover (so say the rules allow it) so they get the winch out and muck around trying to get the rig unstuck.
How long do you allow them to muck around trying to recover the rig. They could be there all day cause they dont want to DNF by using external help. You carnt put a time limit on it cause that is defeating the purpose of having no time limit hile recovering.
So the options I see are:
1. For recoveries only allow the use of a strap for the spotter (and driver if necessary) to pull on the rig. And if they carnt pull it out (which is very likely) then they DNF.
2. For recoveries allow everyone to help (say a desginated team including a seperate recovery rig) and the rig is externally recovered, brought back to the start line and then they can have another attempt.
3. For recoveries allow the team to use their winch but only let them hook the cable up once. (and only a single line pull (no double line pull with a winch block etc)) . If they carnt self recover in one go then they are DNFed and are externally recovered. In this setup they can only use the winch once per recovery for each attempt. This means that if they have an attempt, get stuck, winch, then get stuck again before they get to the start line then they DNF.
(I only thought of option 3 just now and I like it the best)
Sam
The reason for my thinking is this:
Say a rig attempts the obstacle and gets hung up on a rock (easily done) and carnt move forwards or backwards. Time is called, the clock is stopped and the spotter comes in, has a look and says "your hung up on a big arse rock, you need to be at least another foot over to your right on this line here (showing the driver the correct line)" They then try to recover the rig and say they carnt cause its hung up bad. They really need to use a winch to recover (so say the rules allow it) so they get the winch out and muck around trying to get the rig unstuck.
How long do you allow them to muck around trying to recover the rig. They could be there all day cause they dont want to DNF by using external help. You carnt put a time limit on it cause that is defeating the purpose of having no time limit hile recovering.
So the options I see are:
1. For recoveries only allow the use of a strap for the spotter (and driver if necessary) to pull on the rig. And if they carnt pull it out (which is very likely) then they DNF.
2. For recoveries allow everyone to help (say a desginated team including a seperate recovery rig) and the rig is externally recovered, brought back to the start line and then they can have another attempt.
3. For recoveries allow the team to use their winch but only let them hook the cable up once. (and only a single line pull (no double line pull with a winch block etc)) . If they carnt self recover in one go then they are DNFed and are externally recovered. In this setup they can only use the winch once per recovery for each attempt. This means that if they have an attempt, get stuck, winch, then get stuck again before they get to the start line then they DNF.
(I only thought of option 3 just now and I like it the best)
Sam
Yeh heres another point, what happens in the event of a flop the team calls time out they still have plenty of time left but cant stand the rig back up unless they winch, in most cases they would need to do a double line pull!
So i agree with the third ruling but i do see the need for allowing the double line pull (mainly in the above situation).
Or in most cases the team wants to go back to the start, with a single line pull it may take them to far past the obsticle to back up and have another go, maybe they could have the option of either 2 SELF RECOVERIES or 1 ASSISTED RECOVERY or something along those lines.
So i agree with the third ruling but i do see the need for allowing the double line pull (mainly in the above situation).
Or in most cases the team wants to go back to the start, with a single line pull it may take them to far past the obsticle to back up and have another go, maybe they could have the option of either 2 SELF RECOVERIES or 1 ASSISTED RECOVERY or something along those lines.
sound simpler to just go back to the start any way you can and have another attempt.
if you break then fix it and go to the back of the line, this keeps things moving.
I like the idea of just a start gate and finish gate and a short obstacle.
What is the goal of the Put Up Or Shut Up...
I think it is the best car and driver combo is found by tackling the hardest obstacles, no classes no rules, the best is the best
if you break then fix it and go to the back of the line, this keeps things moving.
I like the idea of just a start gate and finish gate and a short obstacle.
What is the goal of the Put Up Or Shut Up...
I think it is the best car and driver combo is found by tackling the hardest obstacles, no classes no rules, the best is the best
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POS : Point taken. So lets make it they are allowed to hook the winch up twice in a time out, self recovery situation trwing to get back to the start line and they can double line it (I didnt think of the around the corner thing) or whatever. I still think that if they carnt self recover then they DNF so as they are competing they dont get any outside help. If we give them outside help then I think they should DNF on that obstacle.
Big Red : the reason I think we need to put some sort of limit on the self recovery is that we are not going to have the recovery part timed (the DNF clocked is stopped) and I really think that they should self recover (without any outside help) so this means that if they are really badly stuck they could be muching around for ever trying to get themselves out (cause they dont want to DNF and get outside help). I think limiting them to 2 winching points while trying to self recover is a good way to do it cause it wont take them too long to do two winches.
We could also allow a 45min (??) break down time per day for each compeditor. So you could either allow then to take this time within an obstacle (so if they break on an obstacle then they call time out and say they want to take their break down time, they fix it then have another go the same obstacle). Or you could make it that if they break on an obstacle then they DNF and then have the 45min extra time to fix their rig before they have to start the next obstacle (this 45min would then be counted from when they are supposed to attempt their next obstacle) In between obstacles anyone can work on your rig while you are not competing on an obstacle. The 45 min is only used when somebody is called to the start line and they are fixing something and they carnt compete so then they are told that they are using their brake down time and have 45 min total to get ready and compete.
Sam
Big Red : the reason I think we need to put some sort of limit on the self recovery is that we are not going to have the recovery part timed (the DNF clocked is stopped) and I really think that they should self recover (without any outside help) so this means that if they are really badly stuck they could be muching around for ever trying to get themselves out (cause they dont want to DNF and get outside help). I think limiting them to 2 winching points while trying to self recover is a good way to do it cause it wont take them too long to do two winches.
We could also allow a 45min (??) break down time per day for each compeditor. So you could either allow then to take this time within an obstacle (so if they break on an obstacle then they call time out and say they want to take their break down time, they fix it then have another go the same obstacle). Or you could make it that if they break on an obstacle then they DNF and then have the 45min extra time to fix their rig before they have to start the next obstacle (this 45min would then be counted from when they are supposed to attempt their next obstacle) In between obstacles anyone can work on your rig while you are not competing on an obstacle. The 45 min is only used when somebody is called to the start line and they are fixing something and they carnt compete so then they are told that they are using their brake down time and have 45 min total to get ready and compete.
Sam
the problem with any time limits is insurance, the owner of the property, the event owner and the driver all need to be covered.
the way i was thinking is if the driver fails to proceed then he recovers with or without help and goes back to the start line for his second attempt, if he breaks then the next car in line starts to have his three attempts and the first driver fixes his car and goes to the back of the line to wait for his second attempt.
the way i was thinking is if the driver fails to proceed then he recovers with or without help and goes back to the start line for his second attempt, if he breaks then the next car in line starts to have his three attempts and the first driver fixes his car and goes to the back of the line to wait for his second attempt.
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The break down time sounds good.
Big Red,
You mentioned about no classes no rules just drive it.
I agree but there is the need for rules otherwise it would be like driving any other weekend, we often drive fairly hard stuff and we often pick the hardest line, but what we want to achieve is an event where people look at an obsticle and go theres no way anyone can drive that, then put the markers up so its even harder again.
We need time limits to keep it exciting and we need some rules to keep it fair and SAFE.
The rules we are talking about in regards to winching is only there so we dont have some goose stuck on a rock for half an hour trying to work out the best way to get out.
The thing to remember its not a winch event so you will find that most guys will only winch if they are really really stuck.
Like i said earlier this first one is going to be interesting we may find one thing works really well and something doesn't, so than we come back and throw some more ideas around and see what we come up with.
I suppose its like building a rig, i doesn't matter how well you plan it there will all ways be something you want to improve!!!
Keep the suggestions coming as its the only way we can work out what people want to see!!!
Big Red,
You mentioned about no classes no rules just drive it.
I agree but there is the need for rules otherwise it would be like driving any other weekend, we often drive fairly hard stuff and we often pick the hardest line, but what we want to achieve is an event where people look at an obsticle and go theres no way anyone can drive that, then put the markers up so its even harder again.
We need time limits to keep it exciting and we need some rules to keep it fair and SAFE.
The rules we are talking about in regards to winching is only there so we dont have some goose stuck on a rock for half an hour trying to work out the best way to get out.
The thing to remember its not a winch event so you will find that most guys will only winch if they are really really stuck.
Like i said earlier this first one is going to be interesting we may find one thing works really well and something doesn't, so than we come back and throw some more ideas around and see what we come up with.
I suppose its like building a rig, i doesn't matter how well you plan it there will all ways be something you want to improve!!!
Keep the suggestions coming as its the only way we can work out what people want to see!!!
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