Outer Limits 4x4 Board

RockyF70 wrote:

Tazz wrote:

ISUZUROVER wrote:

-Scott- wrote: Goes by the original application of the "new" axle. They would find some track figures for a Unimog, and that sets the new basis for the +/- 2".

That's how people can get away with Hilux diffs under a Sierra - the base track becomes the Hilux track, not the Sierra track.

Sorry Scott but you are wrong on this - every engineer & blue plater I have spoken to has told me it is the original vehicle track, not the donor axle track.

In NSW he is right, the new track goes of the donor diffs, and as long as you cover the tyres the engineer should ok it.

I have talked to 2 different engineers about running mogs, and both are happy to pass them in theory as long as the work is to a good standard and the tyres are covered.

So would that mean, that a vehvicle in NSW, that has Hilux axles thrown under it, would now be SPOA as standard? Or is that a different kettle of fish?

thats a suspension swap.

patrol42 wrote:What if you could get just the mog portal assembly..and mate it to your existing axle? Would that be easier to engineer and be a better option?

Would it be much cheaper? Can you get mog portals without stripping complete diffs? What axle set up do you use for this?

I have no idea regarding the engineering but this sounds interesting.

Nelso wrote:

patrol42 wrote:What if you could get just the mog portal assembly..and mate it to your existing axle? Would that be easier to engineer and be a better option?

Would it be much cheaper? Can you get mog portals without stripping complete diffs? What axle set up do you use for this?

I have no idea regarding the engineering but this sounds interesting.

would be custom axles involved at the very least($$$), and you would need to buy the complete mog axles, cut the knuckle off and weld it to your tube. Then you would probably need to truss your GQ or 80series diff as the ends of the axle tude probably arent built for the stresses involved with portals.

From what I understand, most use GU axles with Mog portals, or at least that seems to be the preferred option.

And it seems MOg portals are preferred over Hummer Portals.

The comp vehicles I have seem have had laminated diffs, but i dont know if that was because of the mog portals or not

In regards to sourcing just the portals..yes it may be possible and will be cheaper..how much cheaper..I dont know..but definately cheaper than the whole axle.

Of course Disc Conversions would be extra, but you would be up for that anyway.

patrol42 wrote:From what I understand, most use GU axles with Mog portals, or at least that seems to be the preferred option.

And it seems MOg portals are preferred over Hummer Portals.

The comp vehicles I have seem have had laminated diffs, but i dont know if that was because of the mog portals or not

In regards to sourcing just the portals..yes it may be possible and will be cheaper..how much cheaper..I dont know..but definately cheaper than the whole axle.

Of course Disc Conversions would be extra, but you would be up for that anyway.

would be cheaper for shipping, but id imagine the guy your buying just the portal from, isnt going to be able to sell the rest of the assembly, so hes gonna charge you what the whole assembly would go for.

Shadow wrote:

patrol42 wrote:From what I understand, most use GU axles with Mog portals, or at least that seems to be the preferred option.

And it seems MOg portals are preferred over Hummer Portals.

The comp vehicles I have seem have had laminated diffs, but i dont know if that was because of the mog portals or not

In regards to sourcing just the portals..yes it may be possible and will be cheaper..how much cheaper..I dont know..but definately cheaper than the whole axle.

Of course Disc Conversions would be extra, but you would be up for that anyway.

would be cheaper for shipping, but id imagine the guy your buying just the portal from, isnt going to be able to sell the rest of the assembly, so hes gonna charge you what the whole assembly would go for.

Not necessarily as he may be able to sell the other bits as spares. But what it may be, is getting 60% of a complete axle (if you get my drift) at a 60% of the price or whatever...

I dont know, but I am going to look into it anyway. It could work out to be 3000 or 3500 for a set of portals..for the sake of a bit of my time it cant hurts to see and thats a lot better than the 17500.00 for the Marks Portals.

booflux wrote:

bru21 wrote:qld rules recently changed. gq onto mog is now an ICV (no longer can you do body swaps). diffs are easy to get passed however, don't go to an engineer EVER!!!! blue plate at an approved persons, for $77 and the plate will be the same plate with the same codes as and engineer but without the dramas or the $$$$$$

cheers bru.

also track is from the donor diffs - ie on mine I can still go 50mm wider than my gu diffs etc

I have been told you cant blue plate a diff swap I looked into it for the rear surf swap. They couldnt do that so I dont see how they could do a entire axle swap, with wider diffs???

I have a blue plate for my diff swap, and its been to the dot, its on the books done.

This forum is full of red flags where there really are none. I say to any who are serious about mods look into it for yourself. That is coming from someone with 3 plates full of codes 10 or 11 from memory.

Good news..we can get Used Unimog 404 Portal Assemblies.

Check the for sale section for details
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/viewtopic ... 76#1073376

bru21 wrote:

booflux wrote:

bru21 wrote:qld rules recently changed. gq onto mog is now an ICV (no longer can you do body swaps). diffs are easy to get passed however, don't go to an engineer EVER!!!! blue plate at an approved persons, for $77 and the plate will be the same plate with the same codes as and engineer but without the dramas or the $$$$$$

cheers bru.

also track is from the donor diffs - ie on mine I can still go 50mm wider than my gu diffs etc

I have been told you cant blue plate a diff swap I looked into it for the rear surf swap. They couldnt do that so I dont see how they could do a entire axle swap, with wider diffs???

I have a blue plate for my diff swap, and its been to the dot, its on the books done.

This forum is full of red flags where there really are none. I say to any who are serious about mods look into it for yourself. That is coming from someone with 3 plates full of codes 10 or 11 from memory.

I just had a read of the code and theres two points that jump out.

Section 1.2 to ensure the correct rear wheel track is maintained, the width between the axle flange faces of the replacement or modified axle must be the same as the dimension on the original axle fitted to the vehicle being modified.

Section 1.3 The vehicles original wheel stud pattern must be retained.

I dont see any way of circumventing that, infact, to me, that means you cant fit a GQ diff to a suzuki, even if you can make the track the same as the OE suzuki specs, since theres no way the axle flange's are going to be the same distance as the origonal diff.

other problems unimog 404 centre in front is 90mm offset to the left so sump clearence will be a problem but with the v8 mite clear, but transfer will not line up. Brakes should pass a brake test as the 404 drums are huge, a disk conversion makes the track wider from memory 110mm each side

patrol42 wrote:What if you could get just the mog portal assembly..and mate it to your existing axle? Would that be easier to engineer and be a better option?

Patrol42, will this cause the wheels to run backwards because of the gearing in the portals?

Slunnie wrote:

patrol42 wrote:What if you could get just the mog portal assembly..and mate it to your existing axle? Would that be easier to engineer and be a better option?

Patrol42, will this cause the wheels to run backwards because of the gearing in the portals?

you would have to swap your crown wheel and pinions over front to rear

That'll still run in the same direction though.

Slunnie wrote:

patrol42 wrote:What if you could get just the mog portal assembly..and mate it to your existing axle? Would that be easier to engineer and be a better option?

Patrol42, will this cause the wheels to run backwards because of the gearing in the portals?

nah, ya just put the left wheel on the right side, and vice versa

jks

Shadow wrote:

Slunnie wrote:

patrol42 wrote:What if you could get just the mog portal assembly..and mate it to your existing axle? Would that be easier to engineer and be a better option?

Patrol42, will this cause the wheels to run backwards because of the gearing in the portals?

nah, ya just put the left wheel on the right side, and vice versa

jks

This relates only to rear Steer.

Some people do run unmodified steering axles in the rear, but I don’t think that this is the best idea.

There are left and right gearsets in the portals. Under many circumstances, there is no reason to be concerned, but under high load, like climbing a waterfall, these gearsets should be on the correct side, or you risk blowing the portal.

Why? These are heli-cut gears, and may load the portal housing when under high stress in the wrong direction. It is relatively simple to switch the portals from side to side.

nastytroll wrote:other problems unimog 404 centre in front is 90mm offset to the left so sump clearence will be a problem but with the v8 mite clear, but transfer will not line up.

This is only really an issue with the Front Diff, and to get around it you can Diff offset change. This should not alter the width of the axle, so the stock shafts still work.

However if you wish to retain the factory locker with this offset change, you will need a replacement short halfshaft which has longer splines to allow the locking collar to slide in and out.

Of course you need to remember that Unimogs do not run propshafts in the conventional sense, but use torque tubes instead. This means that you have to convert the 'nose' of the diff to accept a propshaft flange.
This is an easy fix and the pinion conversion kits are available.

You also should keep in mind that due to the portal reduction you can run bigger tyres (ie 44's) with out having to undergo a ratio change. Unimog 404 Axles were designed to run 39 to 41" tyres and 44's is no stretch for them.

The portals also take the stress of the driveline as the power to the wheels comes from the portal.

Above all they are pretty strong axles, probably stronger than even a Dana 70, but they are not unbreakable.

If you are going to run Mog Axles there are a few things to consider..

- The acceptable or desired ride height of the vehicle;
- Driveshaft lengths and angles, due to the pinion lengths of the Unimog 3rd members;
- Interference between the front pinion and the engine oilpan, starter, and exhaust;
- Interference between steering components and the drivetrain and frame;
- Whether an offset rear differential design is acceptable;
- Suspension design to handle the torque wrap;
- What to tell your mates when they can’t follow you any more.

patrol42 wrote:

Shadow wrote:

Slunnie wrote:

patrol42 wrote:What if you could get just the mog portal assembly..and mate it to your existing axle? Would that be easier to engineer and be a better option?

Patrol42, will this cause the wheels to run backwards because of the gearing in the portals?

nah, ya just put the left wheel on the right side, and vice versa

jks

This relates only to rear Steer.

Some people do run unmodified steering axles in the rear, but I don’t think that this is the best idea.

There are left and right gearsets in the portals. Under many circumstances, there is no reason to be concerned, but under high load, like climbing a waterfall, these gearsets should be on the correct side, or you risk blowing the portal.

Why? These are heli-cut gears, and may load the portal housing when under high stress in the wrong direction. It is relatively simple to switch the portals from side to side.

Not really talking about the cut on the gear. I was under the impression that to run the mog portal, you also had to flip the diff upsidedown to make the axle drive backwards, and then the mog portal assemblys gearing would reverse this again to make the wheels drive in the proper direction. Or is it simply a matter of cutting the ends off your own axles and joining the portals back on?

Slunnie wrote: Not really talking about the cut on the gear. I was under the impression that to run the mog portal, you also had to flip the diff upsidedown to make the axle drive backwards, and then the mog portal assemblys gearing would reverse this again to make the wheels drive in the proper direction. Or is it simply a matter of cutting the ends off your own axles and joining the portals back on?

Mog portals (and most others) are 2-gear portals - which means that the drive gets reversed by the portal (the axle shafts spin backwards before the portal gears make the stub axles spin forwards). To get the drive going the right way, the mog diffs are upside down compared to a normal diff (to make the axles going into the portals spin backwards in the first place). So if you want to build custom setups like the mog 9's (ford 9" and mog portals) that have been built in the US, you need to flip the centre upside down.

Excellent, thanks for this Ben. I thought it was the case, but just wanted to confirm it. I'd love to have a go at building a Toy/mog axle one day for my old Landy.

Why dont u just narrow the mog diffs and use the whole thing, i wouldnt thing drive shaft lenghts would be much of a issue in a long wheelbase, hell they run them in 100" wheelbase jeeps.

Heres a link to narrowing a mog diff, looks very easy and I am about to have a go my self. If u do it right u could use standard short side rear axles in both side for the rear and just cut and spline one of the front axles.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=574665

Good link I think ill have to have a go at that with mine. May even be another way of putting the front pumkin on the Right hand side
Any body have any links for anywhere to have the axels shortened? Or know of where to get them done Qld prefered but not essential

Yeah good link! Thanks for this. My thoughts were also to change the pinion to the DS on the front. I'm not interested in changing engine & gearboxs again.

nottie wrote:Good link I think ill have to have a go at that with mine. May even be another way of putting the front pumkin on the Right hand side
Any body have any links for anywhere to have the axels shortened? Or know of where to get them done Qld prefered but not essential

nottie, Glen Dobbin has done a few & does a good job.
Try Dobbin Engineering on 02 9609 4446 & ask for Glen.

jeep97tj wrote:Why dont u just narrow the mog diffs and use the whole thing, i wouldnt thing drive shaft lenghts would be much of a issue in a long wheelbase, hell they run them in 100" wheelbase jeeps.

Heres a link to narrowing a mog diff, looks very easy and I am about to have a go my self. If u do it right u could use standard short side rear axles in both side for the rear and just cut and spline one of the front axles.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=574665

Depends on what your running them in, but if your running them in a patrol or something similar, you shouldnt need to narrow them at all.

If ya running at least 17's you should be able to get them back to be the same width as a GQ.

Carlton (Wendle) has his running at the same width as his GQ buggy was.

Cheers Tazz

If anyone is interested, I spoke to qld transport about this, and there is no way around the fact that the distance between axle flanges must be the same as the origonal vehicles distance.

This is found in the approved persons code, section LD(Rear Axle) ection 2.0, 1.2

LD1 also states

Modifications not allowed under this Code.

2. Modifications to axle housings - other than that allowed by the acle manufacturer for fitting of suspension brackets.

This means, splicing a GQ centre into an 80 series housing, or welding mog portals to a GQ/60/80 housing requires written approval from QLD Transport. No engineer or approved person can approve something which is not covered by the code.