Outer Limits 4x4 Board

i also run superior drop shackles on the rear of my lux, and i totally agree with what josh gq wrote.

Extended Shackles are NOT LEGAL in QLD. At all and never have been.

So if the Superior or Climax shackle is longer than the stock factory fitted shackle then NO they are NOT LEGAL in QLD.

Liam if you have an engineer in QLD that will happily pass them without a doubt that QLD transport will be happy i would like to know his number.

A friend of mine is the second most qualified queensland transport automotive consultant and he WILL NOT PASS extended shackles.



So Jake to answer your question No they are not Legal in QLD if they are extended.

RUFF wrote:Extended Shackles are NOT LEGAL in QLD. At all and never have been.

So if the Superior or Climax shackle is longer than the stock factory fitted shackle then NO they are NOT LEGAL in QLD.

Liam if you have an engineer in QLD that will happily pass them without a doubt that QLD transport will be happy i would like to know his number.

A friend of mine is the second most qualified queensland transport automotive consultant and he WILL NOT PASS extended shackles.



So Jake to answer your question No they are not Legal in QLD if they are extended.

That's funny - my engineer said the same thing

But I still run extended shackles so who am I to judge

beebee wrote:

RUFF wrote:Extended Shackles are NOT LEGAL in QLD. At all and never have been.

So if the Superior or Climax shackle is longer than the stock factory fitted shackle then NO they are NOT LEGAL in QLD.

Liam if you have an engineer in QLD that will happily pass them without a doubt that QLD transport will be happy i would like to know his number.

A friend of mine is the second most qualified queensland transport automotive consultant and he WILL NOT PASS extended shackles.



So Jake to answer your question No they are not Legal in QLD if they are extended.

That's funny - my engineer said the same thing

But I still run extended shackles so who am I to judge

I have to admit, there are variations with the "Light Vehicle Code of Practice" in QLD vs "What an Engineer will certify" vs "What QLD Dept Of Transport will allow to be certified".

I would love to know where the system breaks down... because by what I can see QLD D.O.T knocks back a ridiculous amount of stuff that meets the criteria of the code of practice.

It seems that QLD DOT has advised engineers in many cases not to pass stuff that meets the code of practice. Obviously no-one is in a position to say "yeah they told me to bakc off" but it is very interesting.

Wonder if the other more restrictive states (eg WA or TAS) have the same issue?

"I would love to know where the system breaks down... because by what I can see QLD D.O.T knocks back a ridiculous amount of stuff that meets the criteria of the code of practice.

It seems that QLD DOT has advised engineers in many cases not to pass stuff that meets the code of practice. Obviously no-one is in a position to say "yeah they told me to bakc off" but it is very interesting."

What kind of stuff has been knocked back that you think meets the code and the QLD DOT requirements?

I know the belt has been tightened lately but only to enforce rules that always existed.

Pre Note: sorry - i realise this is off topic a tad but my answer will relate to the issue of the Drop Shackles, Buyer Beware and my thoughts on BBO's Obligations as a supplier.

Pre Note Note: I am not part of any consumer legalities board so obviously my ideas are only my own and don't mean anything.

redzook wrote:

greg wrote:I suspect that this situation would be specific to a sierra with certain tyre size and wheel offset though redzook.

I'd expect that Liam is not being car-type specific in his post.

he said u dont need to fit wheel spacers as in all cars including suzuki sierras with 31's

so what is your point?

Take it easy redzook. My point is as follows:

There are clearly a million and one variables to consider when working on suspension for any single car, and I believe it is completely un-realistic to expect that a supplier could provide a "one size fits all" product that is going to work in every setup.

Perhaps the obvious solution to fixing this would be that the drop shackles be provided in a kit, along with the required longer shocks, shock mounts etc... so that there is no possibility of people buying them, putting them on, and finding that they are not doing the job.

However, not even this solution is likely to solve all issues as (per the above responses from Josh_GQ has written) - there is a heck of a lot of work involved to get these things to work to their full potential, and it is not fair to expect BBO to provide an explanation for how to get these things to work in all instances - i.e. I'm sure Josh_GQ doesn't feel hard done by that he wasn't told that he would need to make some changes to the tray on his Patrol in order to get full travel out of his rear suspension setup.

Clearly there needs to be a greater emphasis on buyer beware in some of these areas - this is not a plug and play industry and we as consumers should not be fooling ourselves into thinking that it is.

Not wanting to compare Climax and Superior shackles at all as this is a topic on the latter, and they are completely different designs. The technical part of climax's website details what you need to have these work effectively http://www.climaxsuspension.com/s_drops.html

Climax Drop Shackles have been designed to increase wheel travel and articulation.
They are 100mm high at rest and a massive 200mm long when fully open.
They are up to 6 times stronger than a standard shackle.
They are supplied with a quick release pin mechanism which can be removed in seconds to go off-road or re-fitted just as quickly when returning on-road.
They can be fitted to standard, raised or spring over suspension systems.
These products are for off-road use only. An Engineer's certificate is required for on-road use.
Soft or medium spring packs are best suited for the successful operation of Climax Drop Shackles.
Use only original Climax replacement components.
Lubricate bushes when fitting the shackles and occasionally use spray lube to keep the shackles lubricated. This will assist in the successful operation of the shackles.
It is critical that shackle angles are correct priot to fitting Climax Drop Shackles.
It is important that nyloc nuts are not overtightened when fitting the shackles. Only tighten until the flat washers stop spinning. Do not crush the bush or bend the side plates as this will inhibit the operation of the shackle.
Climax Drop Shackles are best suited to bush tracks, rocks and ruts.
Leave shackles pinned when on sand or in rally conditions.
It is recommended to fit longer shock absorbers and brake lines with the drop shackles.
Other products may be required to further enhance your suspension. These include.....
Shock hoops
Shock relocation brackets
Ladder bars
Wheel spacer (illegal on-road)
Offset rims
Custom spring pack
Opening of spring clamps
Remove pins on level ground. If pins are difficult to remove on level ground the bushes or nylon stop plate may be worn.

Nice find Cam,

and in addition, from the following page:

http://www.climaxsuspension.com/s_disc.html

climax susp page wrote:Some products may not be legal for use on public roads in your state and are designed for off road use only. Climax Suspension makes no claims these products are either legal or insurable for use on public roads.

It is the purchaser's responsibility to ensure compliance with their relevant insurer and local regulatory bodies. In some cases an Engineer's Certificate may be required.

I still haven't seen any evidence of anyone getting knocked backed, pinged, or slapped on the wrist for running them in qld.
We don't give out customers details to anyone, it's up to them to pipe up.

Liam dont you sell these Climax Shackles?

If so wouldnt it be in your interest to provide some evidence of an engineer in QLD that will pass them?

I dont see any proof from any supplier that they have ever been passed up here.

And i know for a fact that extended shackles are ILLEGAL IN QLD. Doesnt mater who made them or how well made they are.

Contact Jeep City at Rainbow Beach in QLD and ask them how many of there Rhino Extended Shackles that are supplied with an engineers report have been accepted by queensland transport when fitted to a vehicle.

Amazing how long these threads go on for... extended shackles are not legal in Queensland.

In principle, it would be possible to fit (and get certified) a drop block for the shackle mount.

Now, if someone were to develop a "drop mount" as opposed to a "drop shackle"...

But let's not get into that.

Jason

Liam wrote:Show me one set of climax's that havent been passed or shut the hell up. Like I said- no engineer has ever had a problem with them- the Hilux one ( i stand corrected) is only 8mm longer than the stock shackle.
If any one can't get them passed I hapily give them their money back- hows that for a claim for an 'offroad use only' part. no takers???? end of arguement.

no its not, i know 3 people that have all had there vechicle defected with the shackles. Not sure who they bought them from, but liam just because an engineer says they are safe DOES NOT mean they are legal.

NICK

NICK wrote:

no its not, i know 3 people that have all had there vechicle defected with the shackles. Not sure who they bought them from, but liam just because an engineer says they are safe DOES NOT mean they are legal.

NICK

I can understand that they would get defected if they had the drop shackles and no engineering mod plate. Did any of these people have a mod plate for them?? This is like swaping in a V8 engine that is a legal conversion but if you dont have a mod plate you will get defected.

What I think Liam is saying is that the shackles are engineerable and once engineered they wont cause a problem with Qld Transport just like 90% of modifications Qld transport allows. I carnt see that there is a problem with this - to me it seems like a very straight forward process.

Now I can understand that some engineers wouldnt engineer these shackles bacause they may "think" that they arnt safe. But all you got to do is find an engineer that understands whats going on and can look at the factory test data and make a judgement on its validity and then as long as he or she believes that the shackles are safe then they can slap on a mod plate and away we go.

This is how the system works - the individual engineer has to believe that the modification is safe and because one engineer doesent like the modification doesent mean that the mod isnt engineerable. Qld transport doesent have every possible modification written down that is allowed - they use the engineers to make judgment calls on whats safe and whats not. Its only in a few particular instances that they make a blanket rulling an whats allowed or not allowed (example - spring over conversions) where they feel that the enginers arnt doing a good enough job of working out whats safe and whats not.

So where are these examples of people getting defected with engineered drop shackles??

Sam

The reason is that the approvals process in Qld doesn't match what people appear to expect in other states.

In Qld, there are some modifications which are specifically prohibited irresepective of what an enginer says. There are also some modifications which MUST be inspected by Queensland Transport - an "approved person" (engineer) CANNOT do a mod plate for them.

For example, it doesn't matter if fifty engineers line up and approve your body lift - Queensland Transport has to inspecrt and approve it or it's not legal.

Worse yet for extended shackles - it doesn't matter how many engineers are happy with them, they cannot be approved. They are specifically prohibited. You CAN'T get a mod plate for them, and if you DID get a mod plate for them, it would be illegal anyway.

It's different to a V8 conversion because an "approved person" CAN certify an engine conversion and CAN provide a mod plate.

I'd love to find out that the above is wrong, but if someone wants to say so, please chime in with more than just an opinion and quote the relevant passage from Qld legislation.

Better yet, if someone can provide a shiny photo of the mod plate for their drop shackles, let's see it.

Jason

RUFF wrote:Contact Jeep City at Rainbow Beach in QLD and ask them how many of there Rhino Extended Shackles that are supplied with an engineers report have been accepted by queensland transport when fitted to a vehicle.

And how many people have spent valuable $$ on their product with the understanding that they are a legal modification in Queensland in the supplied form. They'll never get my $$ again

chimpboy wrote:The reason is that the approvals process in Qld doesn't match what people appear to expect in other states.

In Qld, there are some modifications which are specifically prohibited irresepective of what an enginer says. There are also some modifications which MUST be inspected by Queensland Transport - an "approved person" (engineer) CANNOT do a mod plate for them.

For example, it doesn't matter if fifty engineers line up and approve your body lift - Queensland Transport has to inspecrt and approve it or it's not legal.

Worse yet for extended shackles - it doesn't matter how many engineers are happy with them, they cannot be approved. They are specifically prohibited. You CAN'T get a mod plate for them, and if you DID get a mod plate for them, it would be illegal anyway.

It's different to a V8 conversion because an "approved person" CAN certify an engine conversion and CAN provide a mod plate.

I'd love to find out that the above is wrong, but if someone wants to say so, please chime in with more than just an opinion and quote the relevant passage from Qld legislation.

Better yet, if someone can provide a shiny photo of the mod plate for their drop shackles, let's see it.

Jason

Liam has said that the shackles arnt extended and so dont come into the specifically prohibited type of modification. They are in the "approved person" catagory - exactly the same as a V8 conversion (and even the engine conversions have specifically prohibited limits) as I understand it.

Sam

RUFF wrote:Liam dont you sell these Climax Shackles?

If so wouldnt it be in your interest to provide some evidence of an engineer in QLD that will pass them?

I dont see any proof from any supplier that they have ever been passed up here.

And i know for a fact that extended shackles are ILLEGAL IN QLD. Doesnt mater who made them or how well made they are.

Contact Jeep City at Rainbow Beach in QLD and ask them how many of there Rhino Extended Shackles that are supplied with an engineers report have been accepted by queensland transport when fitted to a vehicle.

What are you talking about here?? What does Rhino Extended Shackles and Jeep City at Rainbow Beach in QLD have to do with Liam selling Climax Shackles.

And for that matter what does the fact that extended shackles are ILLEGAL IN QLD have to Climax Shackles given that Climax Shackles arnt extended??

Sam

guys thanks for the heads up on info and sh1t.... i didnt think theis topic wood or even cood get so heated what i plan to do is to approach Q.D.O.T and ask them "hypothetically" weather these superior drop shackles are legal or not as i am still seeing people postin up "yes they are and no they arent"..... i will contact superior engineering after xmas and ask for the engineers certificate and see what happens. and from what ive heard and from what ive been told no one in TOWNSVILLE has tried to get the superior drop shackle approved and certified by Q.D.O.T yet... so its worth a try

DOES ANY BODY KNOW WEATHER THE SUPERIOR DROP SHACKLES ARE THE SAME MEASUREMENT AT THE CLOSED AND LOCKED POSITION AS THE ORIGINAL EQUIPMENT SHACKLE.......... I ASK THIS AS KNOW ONE HAS BROUGHT IT UP YET

JAKE wrote:guys thanks for the heads up on info and sh1t.... i didnt think theis topic wood or even cood get so heated what i plan to do is to approach Q.D.O.T and ask them "hypothetically" weather these superior drop shackles are legal or not as i am still seeing people postin up "yes they are and no they arent"..... i will contact superior engineering after xmas and ask for the engineers certificate and see what happens. and from what ive heard and from what ive been told no one in TOWNSVILLE has tried to get the superior drop shackle approved and certified by Q.D.O.T yet... so its worth a try

DOES ANY BODY KNOW WEATHER THE SUPERIOR DROP SHACKLES ARE THE SAME MEASUREMENT AT THE CLOSED AND LOCKED POSITION AS THE ORIGINAL EQUIPMENT SHACKLE.......... I ASK THIS AS KNOW ONE HAS BROUGHT IT UP YET

The manufacturer of superior shackles told me that in the closed position, they are still longer than a standard hilux shackle. To what extend I do not know. And I don't know it this is true for other vehicle models. But before taking anybody else's word for it, give Michael (the manufacturer) a ring to confirm. He is very approachable. (07) 3889 6778

thanks dave

JAKE wrote:guys thanks for the heads up on info and sh1t.... i didnt think theis topic wood or even cood get so heated what i plan to do is to approach Q.D.O.T and ask them "hypothetically" weather these superior drop shackles are legal or not as i am still seeing people postin up "yes they are and no they arent"..... i will contact superior engineering after xmas and ask for the engineers certificate and see what happens. and from what ive heard and from what ive been told no one in TOWNSVILLE has tried to get the superior drop shackle approved and certified by Q.D.O.T yet... so its worth a try

DOES ANY BODY KNOW WEATHER THE SUPERIOR DROP SHACKLES ARE THE SAME MEASUREMENT AT THE CLOSED AND LOCKED POSITION AS THE ORIGINAL EQUIPMENT SHACKLE.......... I ASK THIS AS KNOW ONE HAS BROUGHT IT UP YET

no one in TOWNSVILLE has tried to get the superior drop shackle approved and certified by Q.D.O.T yet... so its worth a try

This is probably due to the fact that most people don't bother due to the legal minefield it causes....

Owner: Oh, I've done a minor mod....

Engineer: yeah that seems ok....

Owner: thanks... here's the money for the mod plate.....

( a little while later)

PC Plod: You know this mod is illegal....

Owner: No - I got an engineer to certify it.

PC Plod: An engineer can't certify this, it's specifically banned by QLD D.O.T.

( a little while later)

QLD DOT: You've performed an illegal mod... you car cannot be registered. We will now inspect your vehicle and even a speck of dust and you're in trouble.......

QLD DOT: Aaaaahhhhha! Some mud in the crossmember! I warned you - now you have to reverse every mod you have performed to your car....

Owner: But I was told it's legal and it's been certified.

QLD DOT: Aahahahahahahahaha!

I remember similar issues in Victoria... such as the braided brake line debarcle....

Because no-one actually was prepared to pay for the required testing to be performed (yeah I wanna volunteer thousands of dollars so everyone else selling the same product can sell it legally without paying a cent), it was illegal to use braided brake lines because they hadn't been certified despite them being HEAPS stronger than normal rubber lines.

Where they were fitted as standard equipment on some euro motorbikes the importers would actually pull them off and put rubber ones on...

This madness continued for a couple of years before someone actually coughed up the money.... think it was triumph or ducati... can't remember too long ago.

Eventually they were fitted as standard equipment on the bike in question and breezed through the ADR testing.

Moral.... There's a lot of stuff that can and should be legal, but the regualtory bodies need to prove it to themselves in some circumstances. QLD DOT isn't the only one who do this shiat, just they're pretty restrictive for some of the mods that we see people in NSW and VIC getting done and it's really frustrating.

something tells me that might happen in HICKSVILLE but i dont plan on goin bout it like that at all ive been doin my home work and checkin other shit out along the way too

Suzuki Viagra wrote:

JAKE wrote:guys thanks for the heads up on info and sh1t.... i didnt think theis topic wood or even cood get so heated what i plan to do is to approach Q.D.O.T and ask them "hypothetically" weather these superior drop shackles are legal or not as i am still seeing people postin up "yes they are and no they arent"..... i will contact superior engineering after xmas and ask for the engineers certificate and see what happens. and from what ive heard and from what ive been told no one in TOWNSVILLE has tried to get the superior drop shackle approved and certified by Q.D.O.T yet... so its worth a try

DOES ANY BODY KNOW WEATHER THE SUPERIOR DROP SHACKLES ARE THE SAME MEASUREMENT AT THE CLOSED AND LOCKED POSITION AS THE ORIGINAL EQUIPMENT SHACKLE.......... I ASK THIS AS KNOW ONE HAS BROUGHT IT UP YET

no one in TOWNSVILLE has tried to get the superior drop shackle approved and certified by Q.D.O.T yet... so its worth a try

This is probably due to the fact that most people don't bother due to the legal minefield it causes....

Owner: Oh, I've done a minor mod....

Engineer: yeah that seems ok....

Owner: thanks... here's the money for the mod plate.....

( a little while later)

PC Plod: You know this mod is illegal....

Owner: No - I got an engineer to certify it.

PC Plod: An engineer can't certify this, it's specifically banned by QLD D.O.T.

( a little while later)

QLD DOT: You've performed an illegal mod... you car cannot be registered. We will now inspect your vehicle and even a speck of dust and you're in trouble.......

QLD DOT: Aaaaahhhhha! Some mud in the crossmember! I warned you - now you have to reverse every mod you have performed to your car....

Owner: But I was told it's legal and it's been certified.

QLD DOT: Aahahahahahahahaha!

I remember similar issues in Victoria... such as the braided brake line debarcle....

Because no-one actually was prepared to pay for the required testing to be performed (yeah I wanna volunteer thousands of dollars so everyone else selling the same product can sell it legally without paying a cent), it was illegal to use braided brake lines because they hadn't been certified despite them being HEAPS stronger than normal rubber lines.

Where they were fitted as standard equipment on some euro motorbikes the importers would actually pull them off and put rubber ones on...

This madness continued for a couple of years before someone actually coughed up the money.... think it was triumph or ducati... can't remember too long ago.

Eventually they were fitted as standard equipment on the bike in question and breezed through the ADR testing.

UMM.. how does any of this got anything to do with leaf sprung 4x4s....... lets keep on the subject of this thred and "stop pissin into the wind" if ya get my drift

UMM.. how does any of this got anything to do with leaf sprung 4x4s....... lets keep on the subject of this thred and "stop pissin into the wind" if ya get my drift

the point was that it isn't legal until someone gets it properly tested with QLD DOT. If it's not specifically outlawed but in the grey "unapproved area" then if a sample is sent by the engineer and the relevant supporting paperwork, QLD DOT test it and they like what they see then it will be approved.... if they don't then it won't.

Using a recent example:

I was told HDPE is not legal here in QLD for body lift blocks too, but I know an engineer recently got a specific sample of these blocks (there are different grades and all that) approved for a specific lift on a specific vehicle...

If the process now means everyone can get HDPE of that grade or better legally approved for any 4wd application, then fine (after all the item in question has been tested and okay'd) - the process makes some sense at least - the sample has been proven to meet the criteria. If each engineer needs to apply in writing to DOT for approval for the same type of mod on each and every vehicle (each case is a different vehicle and different loadings and may be a different length width/thickness and so forth) then it's a long wait until that mod gets out into the market for everyone to legally use.

This would be the case of the Superior drop shackles - the testing process required for approval.... AS of yet no-one ahs come back with any proof that they are legal, can be certified legal, nor that the certification will apply for all applications.

If you go through your engineer for your vehicle and your application, is there a flow on effect here in QLD... or is it application specific? Can someone answer this one to shed more light on our "Shackle" issue?

Ok,
Without bringing climax's shackle into it (cause it apears that they are the same height as a standard shackle in the closed position)

Superior shackles are not and will not be legal at any point because they are longer than a standard shackle in the closed position. They are stronger (by huge amounts) than anything else and have little or no effect on onroad driving but because they are longer that is the end of the discussion!
An engineer could test and certify these as a strong safe product but under QLD law they are an extended shackle.
Sorry Jake. You could make a dissision accordingly but as I said it would take me 15-20minutes each end to take mine off and replace them with something else. It is all the other mods involved that are a bit more difficult to reverse!!!!!

Strange Rover wrote:

RUFF wrote:Liam dont you sell these Climax Shackles?

If so wouldnt it be in your interest to provide some evidence of an engineer in QLD that will pass them?

I dont see any proof from any supplier that they have ever been passed up here.

And i know for a fact that extended shackles are ILLEGAL IN QLD. Doesnt mater who made them or how well made they are.

Contact Jeep City at Rainbow Beach in QLD and ask them how many of there Rhino Extended Shackles that are supplied with an engineers report have been accepted by queensland transport when fitted to a vehicle.

What are you talking about here?? What does Rhino Extended Shackles and Jeep City at Rainbow Beach in QLD have to do with Liam selling Climax Shackles.

And for that matter what does the fact that extended shackles are ILLEGAL IN QLD have to Climax Shackles given that Climax Shackles arnt extended??

Sam

Climax shackles are extended.
And Jeep cities Rhino Shackles is just an example of an extended shackle that comes with an engineers report but is still not accepted by Queensland transport.

Liam wrote: Like I said- no engineer has ever had a problem with them- the Hilux one ( i stand corrected) is only 8mm longer than the stock shackle.

Strange Rover wrote:Liam has said that the shackles arnt extended and so dont come into the specifically prohibited type of modification. They are in the "approved person" catagory - exactly the same as a V8 conversion (and even the engine conversions have specifically prohibited limits) as I understand it.

Even if Climax shackles are not longer than standard when closed, don't you think this depends on what your definition of "extended" means? They are still capable of being longer than standard.

Jason

Extending types of shackles are prolly never likely to be an approved mod by QLD transport. It is the DOT's responsibility to enforce legislation, now on road there is absolutely no need for an extending type of shackle, so QLD transport is under no obligation whatsoever to change the legislation to allow for extending shackles to be fitted to a road going vehicle, so that people can improve their vehicles' offroad performance.
Extending shackles are a very small piece of the overall performance of a vehicle offroad, and as they have no benefit at all on the road, (ie they don't make the vehicle handle better, brake more efficiently, improve the COG, improve crumple zones etc - items of a safety nature) why would DOT approve these items?

Like so many things available today in the 4x4 mod industry, there are a lot of products that would never meet a legal requirement, you fit them at your own risk. It is up to you to make the decision.

Simple. Buy the things, run them, like them or hate them, keep them or sell them, if you get pinged, pay the fine, mod the truck, get on with life. You won't end up in jail or have them repo all your assets, that only happens if you kill someone.

In the end they are just shackles. There are a whole heap of things to buy as well, just weigh up how much of an advantage the shackles will give you over any other mod that you could spend your hard earned on - tyres, suspension, locks, undercarriage protection (I think this really important - how hard do you reckon you would go if you knew nothing underneath would break?), improved CV's, case gears, the list is possibly endless.

Perhaps a simple solution to this problem would be to either make / modify / buy / have made for you a set of extendING shackles that - when on road and pinned into position - are no longer than the original shackles that came with the car...

Wouldn't that solve this delema? I gather it is this distance (from top shackle bolt to bottom shackle bolt) that is being changed when on-road and that is the problem that the qld transport have with it. Right?

Is it possible to buy a superior shackle that is the same length, in it closed position, as the original shackle?

If the replacement shackle (closed position) is longer than the original shackle its fittment is specifically prohibited in Qld.

If the replacement shackle (closed position) is the same length as the original shackle you may have a hope.

The only way your will know if they are acceptable is to lodge a "Modification Application" to Queensland Transport.

This is not a standard type of modification so it can not be certified by a blue 'MOD PLATE' and must be approved by QT.

If you are going to put a case to QT try and be as comprehensive as possible and include specifications/photos that help to explain.