Outer Limits 4x4 Board

jessie928 wrote:
there is a valid reason for your " experience" with SBC's

99% of them that are installed in 4x4's are origionally built for a car, they are not cammed and rammed for low down torque.

change the cam, add some mass to the flywheel and you have all the torque in the world.
Everyone gets excited when they hear a " stage 2 or 3 cam" is going into their 4wd motor, they dont realise how weak it becomes offroad and on the freeway trying to lug 2.5 to 3.5 tonnes of brick around at 110km/s @2000

pull a mercruiser small block out of a boat and slot it into a car and you will hear and see all about torque


Jes


Jes

which is my point, if your considering one for an offroad rig, you have to factor in cost of the cam change to patch up the problem of having a shorter stroke. whereas a straight 6 conversion gives you the low down torque off the bat. if you want to start playing with cams etc before you put the motor in, then you can build even more torque from the 6.

Also with the t700, i wouldn't use fitment in trucks in the US as justification. most US manufacturers (ok probably all) are renoun for using components that are near their limit, as can be seen by the number of their big utes that constantly suffer transmission failure, whereas nissan and toyota tend to use components that are a little overbuilt for their application.

cloughy, i'm not debating if the 4L is a better motor than a 250, simply that the 250 is a better motor than a 2f. if cost was no object, then go a 4l. my arguments center around the 250 being more bang for your buck.

conversion kits aren't priced the same. i have yet to see a 4l conversion kit on ebay, but there have been plenty of 250 kits. then factor in the cost of the motor, the cost of the ECU, disabling smartlock, and wiring it up, the 250 is more financially viable. hell if money was no object i'd take the BA motor in my 40.

injected 351w from an f truck.

built to push a barge so loads of torque

badger wrote:injected 351w from an f truck.

built to push a barge so loads of torque

If he wants one, I'm about to sell one Less than 10k old, making 184rwhp on 35's

So there ya go.... A V8 means you will use SH!T loads of fuel, break stuff and probably replace it in a few years....
Sum up what you want your car to do ie RACE or TOUR, there isn't a half way. Most of the people that race their 4wd's break em every time they go out and they run engines like 350's, turbo petrol's and turbo gas. Big power at high revs (and usually overheat (and don't think about thermos, they will simply die in mud))..... practically useless power unless you going through a bog hole with a set of boggas.... in fact most of the people i know that have this sort of power are detuning their cars for control and reliability.

The 1FZ is probably one of the best engines Toyota has ever produced (96 onwards), It's a torquey six with a descent rev range and if that isn't enough, turbo it and expect to go like snot and once again break stuff. If I was going to do a petrol conversion this would be the one, but to get it into a 60 you do need the box unless you can make your own adapter....(CNC)...

If you do any conversion can you post it, its good for others to get a library of the challenges you faced.
Ben

cloughy wrote:

badger wrote:injected 351w from an f truck.

built to push a barge so loads of torque

If he wants one, I'm about to sell one Less than 10k old, making 184rwhp on 35's

hmmmmmmm.....how much

12h-t

or try and squeeze a 1hdf-t out of an 80 series these are the multi valve turbo diesels one of the best if not the best turbo diesel motor toyota has released in amongst their 4x4's namely 40th anniversary 80 series and 100 series

bad_religion_au wrote:

jessie928 wrote:
there is a valid reason for your " experience" with SBC's

99% of them that are installed in 4x4's are origionally built for a car, they are not cammed and rammed for low down torque.

change the cam, add some mass to the flywheel and you have all the torque in the world.
Everyone gets excited when they hear a " stage 2 or 3 cam" is going into their 4wd motor, they dont realise how weak it becomes offroad and on the freeway trying to lug 2.5 to 3.5 tonnes of brick around at 110km/s @2000

pull a mercruiser small block out of a boat and slot it into a car and you will hear and see all about torque


Jes


Jes

which is my point, if your considering one for an offroad rig, you have to factor in cost of the cam change to patch up the problem of having a shorter stroke. whereas a straight 6 conversion gives you the low down torque off the bat. if you want to start playing with cams etc before you put the motor in, then you can build even more torque from the 6.

Also with the t700, i wouldn't use fitment in trucks in the US as justification. most US manufacturers (ok probably all) are renoun for using components that are near their limit, as can be seen by the number of their big utes that constantly suffer transmission failure, whereas nissan and toyota tend to use components that are a little overbuilt for their application.

cloughy, i'm not debating if the 4L is a better motor than a 250, simply that the 250 is a better motor than a 2f. if cost was no object, then go a 4l. my arguments center around the 250 being more bang for your buck.

conversion kits aren't priced the same. i have yet to see a 4l conversion kit on ebay, but there have been plenty of 250 kits. then factor in the cost of the motor, the cost of the ECU, disabling smartlock, and wiring it up, the 250 is more financially viable. hell if money was no object i'd take the BA motor in my 40.

a cam change costs about 200$ including the cam in a chev. and its not a " patch" solution. Is designing the motor to suit the application.

JEs

Before I had the experience of driving and having to fix a 60 with a 350 in it, I looked into the cost of the conversion..... I don't know if much has changed from about 3 years ago:
1 brand new 350 Chev crate motor was close to $3000
1 Conversion kit was somewhere in the $2500 mark with all the add-ons
Automotive electrician costs... about $500 - $1000 est
1 Gas conversion to afford to run the thing without rebate...$2500
Longfield Chromolly CV's 30 spline to handle the power at high rpm when locked now at $1600 est
Then you start modding either the engine/gearbox to make it a capable/comfortable 4wd $$$$
New exhaust system about $500
Engineers Cert about $400
Oh look, it seems that to do a Chev conversion properly isn't that cheap after all.... and you have completely sacrificed all stock wiring and engine setup (so how do fix it when something cracks the sh!ts) you need to pay someone else to try and sort out the wiring and hope that the engine you have bought has a published manual = headache
Ben

Automotive electrician costs... about $500 - $1000 est

For a carby 350 chev there is 6 wires, all of which are also on a 2f

I think I might be in the wrong profession

jessie928 has the idea. if you are going to ANY trouble and its not a new std diesel why would you put a diesel in????

diesels are:
Heavy - about 100kg more than a sb
have some torque but less than a 350 in real world - gas it situations
are far less fun to drive
drink less fuel per lt but is higher per dollar so there are marginal benefits
cost more to buy
blow black smoke that contains benz pirenes and is highly carconegic until it has gone through other motors at least 7 times
lack the cred of a chev!

just go the chev.apart from additional rego costs there are no real negatives. I have had 5 x 350's and i would be putting one in the new rig if it was qld compliant

regards a well VB'd bru

bru21 wrote:jessie928 has the idea. if you are going to ANY trouble and its not a new std diesel why would you put a diesel in????

diesels are:
Heavy - about 100kg more than a sb
have some torque but less than a 350 in real world - gas it situations
are far less fun to drive
drink less fuel per lt but is higher per dollar so there are marginal benefits
cost more to buy
blow black smoke that contains benz pirenes and is highly carconegic until it has gone through other motors at least 7 times
lack the cred of a chev!

just go the chev.apart from additional rego costs there are no real negatives. I have had 5 x 350's and i would be putting one in the new rig if it was qld compliant

regards a well VB'd bru

What he said

Paul

well ive put a 400 chevy in my 60 and i do not regret it one bit
shits all over my old 2f offroad and crawls all over my mates 12ht
so far its cost me about $2200 and ive just done everything myself
halfway through certifying it now and there has not been one problem at all
as for 1000 for wiring it up i dno where that quote came from
i think from memory i changed a hole 7-9 wires in the loom
chevs just look like they were made to fit in 60s

bundytunna wrote:well ive put a 400 chevy in my 60 and i do not regret it one bit
shits all over my old 2f offroad and crawls all over my mates 12ht
so far its cost me about $2200 and ive just done everything myself
halfway through certifying it now and there has not been one problem at all
as for 1000 for wiring it up i dno where that quote came from
i think from memory i changed a hole 7-9 wires in the loom
chevs just look like they were made to fit in 60s

aaah i love the 400

a friend of a friend had one in a 60 series, NIIICE. gobs and gobs of low down gut wrenching torque

big block or small?

tuffsahara wrote:12h-t

or try and squeeze a 1hdf-t out of an 80 series these are the multi valve turbo diesels one of the best if not the best turbo diesel motor toyota has released in amongst their 4x4's namely 40th anniversary 80 series and 100 series

X eleventyeightbillionty and three


Why would you piss around with a crappy old petrol guzzling boat anchor. Especially if you've got touring in mind, then Turbo diesel all the way.
Either a 12HT or 1HD-t would be nice but 1HD-FT/E would rock your pants off. It'll pulll harder than a 350 for alot longer. You wont need to carry fifteen jerry cans just to get out of town and water wont bother it!

If you want longevity, reliability, economy, torque and a smooth engine then go a H series turbo.

If you want power, a nice note from the exhaust and love spending weekends pissing around on your car and spending dollars then go a 350 chev.

Dan

Ruffy wrote:

tuffsahara wrote:12h-t

or try and squeeze a 1hdf-t out of an 80 series these are the multi valve turbo diesels one of the best if not the best turbo diesel motor toyota has released in amongst their 4x4's namely 40th anniversary 80 series and 100 series

X eleventyeightbillionty and three


Why would you piss around with a crappy old petrol guzzling boat anchor. Especially if you've got touring in mind, then Turbo diesel all the way.
Either a 12HT or 1HD-t would be nice but 1HD-FT/E would rock your pants off. It'll pulll harder than a 350 for alot longer. You wont need to carry fifteen jerry cans just to get out of town and water wont bother it!

If you want longevity, reliability, economy, torque and a smooth engine then go a H series turbo.

If you want power, a nice note from the exhaust and love spending weekends pissing around on your car and spending dollars then go a 350 chev.

Dan

will as it turnes out i'm not going the 350 or the 80s but did pick up a HJ60 with a 2H in it don't know how good these motors are but got a hole car chep with 5speed...plan on useing 2H and turboing it with the 5speed

this is REALLY out there but there is a guy selling a 1fzfe turbo cruiser engine on toymods which he has got 499.9kw ATW in his toyota crown.. aparently these thinks are bullet proof

been trying to convince my mate to get it and bolt it in to the 80 series!!.. only 1 prob he wants $9500 for it and you will probably need that again to get it up and running properly

kangaroohill wrote:this is REALLY out there but there is a guy selling a 1fzfe turbo cruiser engine on toymods which he has got 499.9kw ATW in his toyota crown.. aparently these thinks are bullet proof

been trying to convince my mate to get it and bolt it in to the 80 series!!.. only 1 prob he wants $9500 for it and you will probably need that again to get it up and running properly

that's not supercrown or whatever his name was from adelaide is it?

Nat84 wrote:pick up a HJ60 with a 2H in it don't know how good these motors are but got a hole car chep with 5speed...plan on useing 2H and turboing it with the 5speed

2H .. only smiles you will get ..

Care on he engine and boost it up to 14 PSI .. and intercooled .. not a 350 but certanly you will go at any place ..

bad_religion_au wrote:

kangaroohill wrote:this is REALLY out there but there is a guy selling a 1fzfe turbo cruiser engine on toymods which he has got 499.9kw ATW in his toyota crown.. aparently these thinks are bullet proof

been trying to convince my mate to get it and bolt it in to the 80 series!!.. only 1 prob he wants $9500 for it and you will probably need that again to get it up and running properly

that's not supercrown or whatever his name was from adelaide is it?

yep thats the guy

tuffsahara wrote:12h-t

or try and squeeze a 1hdf-t out of an 80 series these are the multi valve turbo diesels one of the best if not the best turbo diesel motor toyota has released in amongst their 4x4's namely 40th anniversary 80 series and 100 series

I second this, the 12ht has huge potential. As I'm looking into high flowing my brothers turbo on his 12HT, setting boost at 15psi, intercooling and increasing fuel. Estimates are around 120+rwkw but with huge torque.... chew a 350 chev piece of piss... and still return 10L/100kms. But I know you want more.. so add healthy turbo whisle to the package....

Mi2c

Daniels

tuffsahara wrote:
12h-t

or try and squeeze a 1hdf-t out of an 80 series these are the multi valve turbo diesels one of the best if not the best turbo diesel motor toyota has released in amongst their 4x4's namely 40th anniversary 80 series and 100 series

DanielS
"I second this, the 12ht has huge potential. As I'm looking into high flowing my brothers turbo on his 12HT, setting boost at 15psi, intercooling and increasing fuel. Estimates are around 120+rwkw but with huge torque.... chew a 350 chev piece of piss... and still return 10L/100kms. But I know you want more.. so add healthy turbo whisle to the package...."

Sounds good DanielS, I've just done a conversion (12ht), I want to do the same thing, but I need some accurate results of torque...
Does anybody know a pretty accurate figure of what these things produce at 15 psi/intercooled/3inch mandrel bent pipe (no mufflers) ? Engine has bout 45 - 50 000 km's on it (VIRGIN) ![/i][/b]

Cruza62 wrote:tuffsahara wrote:
12h-t

or try and squeeze a 1hdf-t out of an 80 series these are the multi valve turbo diesels one of the best if not the best turbo diesel motor toyota has released in amongst their 4x4's namely 40th anniversary 80 series and 100 series

DanielS
"I second this, the 12ht has huge potential. As I'm looking into high flowing my brothers turbo on his 12HT, setting boost at 15psi, intercooling and increasing fuel. Estimates are around 120+rwkw but with huge torque.... chew a 350 chev piece of piss... and still return 10L/100kms. But I know you want more.. so add healthy turbo whisle to the package...."

Sounds good DanielS, I've just done a conversion (12ht), I want to do the same thing, but I need some accurate results of torque...
Does anybody know a pretty accurate figure of what these things produce at 15 psi/intercooled/3inch mandrel bent pipe (no mufflers) ? Engine has bout 45 - 50 000 km's on it (VIRGIN) ![/i][/b]

Hey Cruza62,

I will talk to my diesel pump guy and ask what torque numbers he has seen from engines that are set up with the mods talked about.

Daniels

Sweet, that'll be good

kangaroohill wrote:

bad_religion_au wrote:

kangaroohill wrote:this is REALLY out there but there is a guy selling a 1fzfe turbo cruiser engine on toymods which he has got 499.9kw ATW in his toyota crown.. aparently these thinks are bullet proof

been trying to convince my mate to get it and bolt it in to the 80 series!!.. only 1 prob he wants $9500 for it and you will probably need that again to get it up and running properly

that's not supercrown or whatever his name was from adelaide is it?

yep thats the guy

*droolz*

A worked 12ht sounds good would they be any good for winch challenge events like outback vic winch ateco etc because its that or a 350 chev in a 60 im thinking of building

keep it real... 2h with a turbo 3 inch zorst ,intercooler and 4.6 gu diffs ,can't kill those old motors and not all the drama's you have with a carby v8.
Low down torque at 1500 rpm instead of a torque range of 3000-3500 rpm.
But if you wanna go fast break shit and stop at every bowser put a v8 in it,just stay away from water.

If you want to go camping and touring then a diesel is the only way to go. If you want to go comps then probably a v8, 99% of comp trucks run v8 for a reason

Paul

known 2 wrote:i read that the t700 isn't up to it. gm have another heavy duty 4spd they use behind bigblocks and lager engines.
sure u can build them strong but at what cost. not worth it..
want a strong 4spd that will bolt up to a 1fz use the 80 sereis auto. far stronger than t700 and no adapter plate required.

yea, heard that as well however they can be built with the right parts plenty strong enough, the t700 or 4L60e is pretty much a t350 with an extra gear and electronic control whereas the heavy duty one you mention has more in common with the t400 its called the 4L80E, the only downside apart from the cost is that the 4L80 has a taller 1st gear.

As far as torque goes ive got a 383 with straight gas in an MQ ute with standard gearing and 36" centipedes and it has way way more poke down low than my GQ (td42 and 31s) and my mates Gu ute (TD42ti and 32s), pretty much floor it at 800 rpm and it'll clear mud from all four treads (diff locks) without a drama.
Like people said above it just depends what they are built for i.e. you'd do better with a 350/383 or 400 chev making 350hp than you would with a 308 making 350hp, the only downside is touring range, mine gets about 700ks to 170 litre of gas, still fairly cheap - a little cheaper than the GQ but less fuel availability, and its harder to fit big gas tanks in a wagon.

I would never put a petrol in a 4wd. Especially if it was intended for anything other than shopping.

Here's one idea.
http://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=128585

KiwiBacon wrote:I would never put a petrol in a 4wd. Especially if it was intended for anything other than shopping.

Here's one idea.
http://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=128585

i'd never own a diesel 4wd again unless i was setting up for the simpson desert or something. day in day out, LPG is cheaper to run, cheaper to service, and your not stuck trying to climb a hill or clearing your tyres out because the old diesel hasn't got the mumbo to do it