Outer Limits 4x4 Board

disclaimer: I don't know how it works, and I'm not really that interested, but I'm happy to waste your time

KiwiBacon wrote:
As already mentioned.
A catalyst is something that remains unaltered at the end.

a catalyst is something that remains unaltered at the end of one chemical reaction. Consider that it may be possible that the LPG acts as a catalyst in some hypothetical first stage and is then burned in a hypothetical second, third or fourth stage. obviously LPG in the presence of air and a flame isn't going to last long; maybe it lasts long enough.

LPG is burnt, releasing the same amount of heat as your backyard BBQ can from the same fuel.

I have a Weber barbeque, it does not use LPG. It does, however, make for a tasty roast. yes the LPG is burned, yes it releases heat, however consider it may also be possible that it contributes, however slightly, to the more complete combustion of the diesel fuel. There must be some kind of gestalt shenanigans going on; the way the LPG in added to the inlet air stream reduces the available oxygen, yet (at least for turbo, direct injection) diesels with LPG and no modification to injection volume make more power and less particulates.

Anyone who calls LPG a catalyst is well worth ignoring.

I like to think I have an open mind about it; I agree that it is extra fuel, but I also think there's slightly more to it than that. Find me a specialist petrochemical/organic industrial chemist who's done the numbers to prove there's no catalytic or other 2+2 = 5 shenanigans going on; every purveyor of these systems leads people to believe there is some catalyst-style action going on. Of course, plenty of people buy hiclones and felch fuel catalysts too; it could be all lies.

The difference between diesel and lpg as fuel is the hydrogen content. LPG has much less carbon so doesn't show as black soot when reaching the limits of the fuel that can be burnt.

agreed, however there's still lots of sooty diesel in there, and the result is a greater degree less soot than can be accounted for by the differential in the carbon and hydrogen fractions of the two fuels as blended.

The cleanest diesels don't have high particulates. The latest engines exhaust meets the white hanky test.

DPM is getting smaller and smaller which makes it much harder to detect, even with a highly precise and perfectly calibrated white hanky, however it is still a problem even in 'the latest engines'. There is still a need for catalytic converters and/or DPM filtering to keep particulate emissions 'low', even with the advances of common rail technology and massively increased fuel atomisation from better injector design and huge injection pressures. Agreed the latest engines have very low exhaust particulates FOR DIESEL engines, but they are still there. Since, however, this discussion is not about the latest engines (on which one would never dream of installing LPG fumigation), but about keeping oil clean, I'm at a loss to understand why you'd even mention 'the latest engines'; which run clean enough to have 20,000km plus service intervals.

I'm now going to increase my under-doona particulate emissions by eating something meaty for dinner. I do wish I could share the aroma with you all

PS if you are an petro/organic industrial chemist or chemical engineer who happens to have written a paper on Diesel/LPG burny burny, I'd like to have someone read it and explain it to me

Is "synergy" the word you're looking for?

I read somewhere that the particulates you get from a petrol engine running on LPG are fine enough to be absorbed into the bloodstream through the lungs. So yeah finer isn't much better.
I read somewhere else (might have been diesel progress magazine) that if it weren't for NOx control then diesel particulates could be bought down to almost nothing.
The EGR systems used to control NOx cause more soot, which then needs particulate filters etc. The extra exhaust heat needed to make the filter work is currently hurting economy by almost 10%.

Here's an interesting thread on propane injection in an automotive engineers forum.
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm? ... 876&page=1

KiwiBacon wrote:Is "synergy" the word you're looking for?

nah, I think 'gestalt shenanigans' is an apt description.

I read somewhere that the particulates you get from a petrol engine running on LPG are fine enough to be absorbed into the bloodstream through the lungs. So yeah finer isn't much better.
I read somewhere else (might have been diesel progress magazine) that if it weren't for NOx control then diesel particulates could be bought down to almost nothing.
The EGR systems used to control NOx cause more soot, which then needs particulate filters etc. The extra exhaust heat needed to make the filter work is currently hurting economy by almost 10%.

Here's an interesting thread on propane injection in an automotive engineers forum.
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm? ... 876&page=1

will have a read when I have more time and fewer grumpy children

KiwiBacon wrote:Hi Ben

What sort of filtration do you get from the factory bypass on the Isuzu 4BD's?
I'm using a Ryco Z155X
http://www.rycofilters.com.au/catalogue ... part/Z155X

Hi KB - I don't have the specs for that filter, but probably 50% efficiency somewhere between 3 and 10 microns. A donaldson or fleetguard filter should have better efficiency.

Btw - my 4BD1 just has the upward facing full-flow that was fitted to landies. Do you know which models of truck come with the upward-facing full-bypass filter combo.

ISUZUROVER wrote:

KiwiBacon wrote:Hi Ben

What sort of filtration do you get from the factory bypass on the Isuzu 4BD's?
I'm using a Ryco Z155X
http://www.rycofilters.com.au/catalogue ... part/Z155X

Hi KB - I don't have the specs for that filter, but probably 50% efficiency somewhere between 3 and 10 microns. A donaldson or fleetguard filter should have better efficiency.

Btw - my 4BD1 just has the upward facing full-flow that was fitted to landies. Do you know which models of truck come with the upward-facing full-bypass filter combo.

I haven't seen any upwards facing dual filter setups. Mine was converted to remote filtration (simply two blanking plates and 3 hoses) to avoid the front driveshafts.

KiwiBacon wrote:

ISUZUROVER wrote:

KiwiBacon wrote:Hi Ben

What sort of filtration do you get from the factory bypass on the Isuzu 4BD's?
I'm using a Ryco Z155X
http://www.rycofilters.com.au/catalogue ... part/Z155X

Hi KB - I don't have the specs for that filter, but probably 50% efficiency somewhere between 3 and 10 microns. A donaldson or fleetguard filter should have better efficiency.

Btw - my 4BD1 just has the upward facing full-flow that was fitted to landies. Do you know which models of truck come with the upward-facing full-bypass filter combo.

I haven't seen any upwards facing dual filter setups. Mine was converted to remote filtration (simply two blanking plates and 3 hoses) to avoid the front driveshafts.

A mate of mine has an upwards facing filter setup. Don't know if he just spun a downwards facing one around though. Remote sounds like an iidea...

ISUZUROVER wrote: A mate of mine has an upwards facing filter setup. Don't know if he just spun a downwards facing one around though. Remote sounds like an iidea...

The two different filter circuits (presume two returns with one common feed) are split in a way that simply flipping the mount wouldn't work. But with a simple sandwich plate between them it could work.
You'd then just need to run the line from the oil cooler/turbo feed around to the bottom and you'd be done.

The biggest PITA regarding my remote setup is the location directly over the PS box. Very messy when changing filters. The only two ways I've found to get around it is to unbolt and invert the whole housing so it drains or make a newspaper funnel to catch the filter oil then haul it out before the oil soaks through.
I really like the toyota touch of a drip collector which ducts down towards the drain plug on the sump. But haven't done anything about it yet.

KiwiBacon wrote:

ISUZUROVER wrote: A mate of mine has an upwards facing filter setup. Don't know if he just spun a downwards facing one around though. Remote sounds like an iidea...

The two different filter circuits (presume two returns with one common feed) are split in a way that simply flipping the mount wouldn't work. But with a simple sandwich plate between them it could work.
You'd then just need to run the line from the oil cooler/turbo feed around to the bottom and you'd be done.

The biggest PITA regarding my remote setup is the location directly over the PS box. Very messy when changing filters. The only two ways I've found to get around it is to unbolt and invert the whole housing so it drains or make a newspaper funnel to catch the filter oil then haul it out before the oil soaks through.
I really like the toyota touch of a drip collector which ducts down towards the drain plug on the sump. But haven't done anything about it yet.

That Toyota touch only comes on some cars (NOT MINE - Argghh)

Paul

Catalyst: is a substance that initiates or accelerates a chemical reaction without itself being affected.

Synonyms: accelerator

So in this cae the LPG should be helping the diesel to burn either quicker or better.

Soot out the back is just the left over ash from the burnt diesel.

I am thinking this is what happens.

LPG has an octane of 120 to 130, (it doesn't burn up easy also the reason why petrol engines get less power than using normal petrol)

Diesel from BP and Shell have a cetine of 50, I believe that Diesel burns around the 200C mark.

This coming from the material papers on diesel from BP and Shell.

So I think the diesel burns first then lights up the LPG afterwards.

If the that is the case then any soot the diesel would normally produce would be vapoised once the LPG burns up, thus giving you less soot.

The trade off would be slightly increased power due to the extra LPG burn.


In terms of brand new diesels in the USA they have 2 cytalic converters of different types plus 1 soot converter.

The soot converter simply grabs any left over soot and when it's full the ECU adds extra diesel to the motor or retards it so that the exhuast heat is increased and this burns up the excess soot (ash) in the converter.

Once that been completed it all back to normal, you never change anything nor replace it, unless you get a new exhuast pipe done up.

The 2008 emissions levels are dropped down again plus diesel fuel will also drop to 5ppm of sulfer as well.

in 2010 there will be no sulfer allowed in diesel fuel at all.

I have no idea what effect this diesel will have on older diesels as sulfer is used to keep the valves etc lubed.

more chemitech use I take it?

zagan wrote: So I think the diesel burns first then lights up the LPG afterwards.

One thing you may have missed.
The LPG is there before the diesel gets injected.

From reading here and there, the LPG mix is too lean to burn without the diesel. If you overdo it is audibly knocks.

Soot is not ash. Ash is things that won't (reasonably) burn. Soot is unburn carbon and carbon is 70% of your fuel. Soot = poor combustion.

Paul

me3@neuralfibre.com wrote:From reading here and there, the LPG mix is too lean to burn without the diesel. If you overdo it is audibly knocks.

Given the amount of noise that most diesels make, you'd hope there's a better way than listening for it.
By the time you can hear it outside a running diesel, it's probably the equivalent of 10,000 angry elves with ball-peen hammers.

just read someone used cat diesel oil, where would one get this from?

i use either penrite or castrol oil at the moment, so just wondering do you have to work at Hastings Deerings or a mob like that to get it or can you but it somewhere?

cheers

Iv'e been useing genuine filters in mine for over a year but thinking about changing to ryco due to cost.

I drop my oil (penrite 20-60) every 5 but have been told to change filter every 10?

Would like to hear thoughts on this and to if there is a great difference between genuine and ryco products..

rezpkt wrote:Iv'e been useing genuine filters in mine for over a year but thinking about changing to ryco due to cost.

I drop my oil (penrite 20-60) every 5 but have been told to change filter every 10?

Would like to hear thoughts on this and to if there is a great difference between genuine and ryco products..

EEEKKKK

I would do the exact opposite. I used to (many years ago) do similar on my petrols, till I had something explained to me.

The filters job is to keep the oil clean. If the oil is dirty, then the filter is full. Why drop the dirty oil acknowledging the filter is full? Why not drop the filter so the oil can be cleaned and continue service?

The above is a VERY simplsitic view, but it is approximately correct. The HEAVY fuel oil engines (6000KW Watsila) generators we had at Lihir never get an oil change. It's filtered (well, external system, multi process), constantly added to automatically, and the engine slowly consumes it. They do use a bit, and they burn any old sh*t, but the concept is similar.

If I was doing anything it would be dropping the filter at 5K and oil at 10k. The real dislaimer is follow manufacturers spec unless you use oil analysis to backup your process as every engine / conditions of use are diferent.

FYI: My 15K analysis on Pentrite 15W50 came back "pass" using Nipon Max filters at 5K. I'm now testing Toyota oil + Toyota filter to see if there is any difference.

I would love to know of a test to see if a filter is clogged and bypassing, haven't found one yet.

I tried extended drain on my 1KZTE w/o changing the filter. Results were a FAIL at 8500KM.

If you want a copy of any of the results email me.

Paul

as a price reference, the toyota filter for 1hz is just over 41 bucks. haven't bought a fleetguard for a 1hz yet, will look around who sells them

me3@neuralfibre.com wrote:
I would love to know of a test to see if a filter is clogged and bypassing, haven't found one yet.

Not sure im on the right wavelength here...

but can you not set up a means of measuring the differential pressure across the filter?

KiwiBacon wrote:

zagan wrote: So I think the diesel burns first then lights up the LPG afterwards.

One thing you may have missed.
The LPG is there before the diesel gets injected.

It doesn't really matter as the autogas ignition temp is way above diesel it's not funny, I would say if you were pushing the diesel motor hard then the LPG might ignite first.


Ok just looked up the MDS for LPG autogas.

BP:
the Motor Octane Number is 90.5

Caltex:
Research Octane Number is 100.

The Caltex Autogas has an ingnition Temp of 450C

Shell:
MON is 92

Shell have 3 different LPG autogas mixes
With butane the ignition temp is >450C

Pure LPG ingition temp is >450C

Pure Propane ignition temp is >450C

This bit is for those wondering what RON and MON are:

MON or the aviation lean octane rating, which is a better measure of how the fuel behaves when under load. MON testing uses a similar test engine to that used in RON testing, but with a preheated fuel mixture, a higher engine speed, and variable ignition timing to further stress the fuel's knock resistance. Depending on the composition of the fuel, the MON of a modern gasoline will be about 8 to 10 points lower than the RON.

RON is determined by running the fuel in a test engine with a variable compression ratio under controlled conditions, and comparing these results with those for mixtures of isooctane and n-heptane.

Now Diesel

Caltex
Ultra low Sulfer - Cetene 46 or higher
auto-ignition Temp = >250C (approx)

Shell
Diesel different names - Cetene 49
auto-ingition Temp = >220C


While this is all great and stuff, I'm more interested in the by-pass oil filer stuff than fuel ignition temps lol

been good to look this up though as I like the Shell diesel the best, now I know why.

zagan wrote:

KiwiBacon wrote:

zagan wrote: So I think the diesel burns first then lights up the LPG afterwards.

One thing you may have missed.
The LPG is there before the diesel gets injected.

It doesn't really matter as the autogas ignition temp is way above diesel it's not funny,

That's the point you're still missing. The diesel autoignition temp is lower so it does burn as soon as it starts being injected.
The temperature in the cylinder can be hotter than the autoignition point of LPG before diesel is injected.

And these in cylinder temps have little to do with how much you are pushing your engine. They are simply related to compression and intake temps.

Caltex
Ultra low Sulfer - Cetene 46 or higher
auto-ignition Temp = >250C (approx)

Shell
Diesel different names - Cetene 49
auto-ingition Temp = >220C

that is very interesting because every service station seems to use caltex.
I only know this because recently in Vic caltex had contaminations and you could only get shell because they use a different supply.


Back on topic; neuralfibre

I was told by a very good mechanic at toyota who knows his shit, about 80 series especially, and was explained that the filter doesnt have enough time to build up and filter properly with fresh oil every 5,000.
Once they do start building up with shit they filter alot better so he sais..

I know a few others that also follow this rule.

I am most definately interested in peoples input and test results on this as i have just dropped my oil and didnt bother replaceing filter and have no tests or results to go off.
With 370 on the clock i want to take the best care possible!

Ill send you a PM neuralfibre for your results

thanks, rezpkt

rezpkt wrote: I was told by a very good mechanic at toyota who knows his shit, about 80 series especially, and was explained that the filter doesnt have enough time to build up and filter properly with fresh oil every 5,000.
Once they do start building up with shit they filter alot better so he sais..

I know a few others that also follow this rule.

I am most definately interested in peoples input and test results on this as i have just dropped my oil and didnt bother replaceing filter and have no tests or results to go off.
With 370 on the clock i want to take the best care possible!

Ill send you a PM neuralfibre for your results :cool:

thanks, rezpkt

I see his logic. Althought I think it would apply far more to a Z9 type filter (externally the same) which is a large full flow, than the Z334 dual flow filter. A would expect a bypass filter to be pretty damn fine already.

The only definitive answer would be
a) Ask filter manufacturer what micron and % they use in their bypass (fine) stage - I have this question with Ryco atm. If it's under 5micron it's unlikely to get finer by filling. Better would be <2 at 90%.

b) Install pressure gauge across filter and know manufacturers specs for when the filter internal valve opens due to blockage. The problem is the bypass stage may be blocked, but the main stage still operating meaning no fine filtering, yet the valve doesn't trigger.

Baldwin indicated ther external bypass filter at 2micron wouldn't filter finer than their Z334 equivalent, but it would hold much more material.

Paul

So what was the outcome of all your testing
Who did you get to run your oil tests and how much did they charge
Did you get an external bypass filter Brand,Price

Also the diesel gas my 2c
The way i see it you turn down the diesel to add the LPG, you are mearly swapping a sooty fuel for a non sooty fuel. If you lean out a diesel it will run without smoking but lack power; so if it is leaned and then has LPG added to it so it still maintains it's octane/power your have same power without smoke. Tell me if my logic doesn't make sense.

I RUN DONLDSON ON MY 4.5 CRUSSER FOUND IT USED LESS OIL AND STAYED CLEANER THEN OTHER BRANDS COST ME $12 FROM OIL PLACE AT NAMBOUR FIGERD IF ITS A TRUCK FILTER IT WOULD DO THE JOB