Outer Limits 4x4 Board

andoy wrote:

want33s wrote:Now I've got you all thinking about welding your spider gears .....
Has anyone thought about doing a complete axle swap that includes a locker?
I know you guys won't like this but what about putting a pair of LADA NIVA diffs under a rocky....
Same stud pattern, Very close wheel track(width). Spools and lockers are available...
http://www.oppositelock.com/redesign/de ... 3&catID=14
The welding spider gears trick ONLY works with open centres... not LSD centres.. Sorry.

Clarification: Yup I plan to have a welded front diff in tandem with the rear diff with LSD. What do you think?

go for it thats what im going to do as soon as im fit enough to drop the front diffhead

As for axle swaps - it depends on whether your doing one or both axles as you need to maintain the same diff ratios front and rear.

5.285 : 1 not only is the Feroza F & R ratio but its also a Toyota one so for a rear only conversion its an obvious choice and can be the right width for a widetrack. Its obviously fine for a narrow but you then need to widen the front to match or narrow the rear.......

For the front a 100 series cruiser diff is virtually the same size as a Feroza and obviously can be fitted with the correct ratio, however there's a lot more work involved - special driveshafts to convert from 100 series inner CV's to Feroza outers, no bearing on the leg side diff housing etc etc etc.

IF your doing a SAS then obviously you can fit whatever axles take your fancy - but there's not enough "hump" in the chassis up front to fit a live axle without heaps of lift - IMO to the point where stability suffers in off road use.

Its certainly been done by others but its going to hurt the COG very badly and anything that encourages the Mouse to have a little sleep on its side is not for me !

So my preferred solution is a rear swap, front widen and do something with the original front diff - be it weld or make a custom locker. Having done all but the front diff, I have spent a lot of time and effort investigating, poking, arguing and modifying.

This of course ignores all the legal issues - but I doubt that a SAS in a Feroza could be engineered in Victoria now.

And then what about the transfer ratio - solved one "problem" and on to the next major one.

And....... the cost..........


Opps - [/END RANT]

Ok - my day has been made, got a repy from KS tuning ( Germany ), they CAN DO a front locker - about $2500 landed here.

Dam expensive but its a proper vacuum actuated locking diff and their not cheap in any form so considering the off the shelf options ( none ) I suppose its not too bad.

Still will talk to my mate and see what he can do for the same $$ as I would prefer to keep the money in the country but......

Will have to live on bread and water for the next three months if I go ahead.

2500 isnt too bad when you compare it to ARB's price for a "normal" car.

What did it cost you to convert the rear to hilux?

want33s wrote:

andoy wrote:
Oh I see. In that case, where do do the weld on the differential in this process, i.e. which part/s do you weld?

Thanks.

Here you go mate.... Nothing to it...
http://www.island4x4.com/4x4tech/axle/weldeddiff1/

The design in the welded Samurai diff has 4 spider(pinion) gears ergo the double butterfly design of weld. 2 valley each were filled cross wise, allowing movement between two unfilled valleys. The link to the one spider design doesn't connect when opened so I dont have a visual reference for a single butterfly design.

My check showed the Feroza front end diff has 18 (Samurai has 16) side gear teeth/valleys and only 2 spiders/pinion gears. Question: to have balance position clockwise or counter, can I fill six valleys opposite each other (one butterfly) and leave three open where gears can engage/play?

I hope you can mentally picture what I'm trying to say.

You got it mate.. Fill EVERY valley in the spider gears that doesn't interlock with the other gears.

In terms of cash approximate outlay...

Crownwheel and pinion - aftermarket $500
Housing and late model centre, solid spacer, bearings, setup $500
Air locker $1200
Ubolts $50
Shorten, reco and balance tailshaft $200
Spline and heat treat axles $400
Axle steel (HiTuff) $200


I did the machining, turning, spring seats, shocker mounts, bump stop pads, breaklines, handbrake cables , air locker controls etc etc myself so it hard to put a cost to it all

You could do it cheaper depending on your luck in finding the right bits at cheap prices, but I figured that with the strongest parts available in an axle already overspec for the car that its going to handle whatever I throw at it without problems.

So far thats been the case - except for the rear drums which are standard toyota crap. Disk conversion here we come.

want33s wrote:You got it mate.. Fill EVERY valley in the spider gears that doesn't interlock with the other gears.

Hi gents. I'm about to get my spare front diff for the "welding" project. One more question please: If the teeth on the side gear pinion only fits two valleys in the side gear at any time, can I leave more than two valleys unfilled/unwelded to have more differential movement for easier turns on corners?

Thanks.

andoy wrote:

want33s wrote:You got it mate.. Fill EVERY valley in the spider gears that doesn't interlock with the other gears.

Hi gents. I'm about to get my spare front diff for the "welding" project. One more question please: If the teeth on the side gear pinion only fits two valleys in the side gear at any time, can I leave more than two valleys unfilled/unwelded to have more differential movement for easier turns on corners?

Thanks.

good question ....

personally i would think that you wouldnt want *too* much movement in the gears as it would increase the chances of damaging the teeth because the spider gears would start to turn ..get a bit of momentum up then CRUNCH hit the welded teeth and not turn anymore ... i would think that would increase the amount of kinetic enery hitting the welded teeth. kinda hard to explain but i could see it dramatically increasing the chances of breaking something...

the slight amount of play you would have with just the two teeth engaged and the rest welded would I think be enough to help with unlocking the hubs.

could be wrong, quite often am ..someone else on here will prob be able to explain it better than me .... or disprove my suspisions

No movement at all is the best.

Once upon a time - I used to weld the side gears to the diff 3rd member... ( Not Feroza ) its steel to cast iron but they never cracked and were used in drag cars.

Took my time heating the casting with the oxy - weld - then oxy to slowly lower the temp , then wrapped in fibreglass blanket to slowly cool.

Probably overkill of soemething that you "shouldn't" do in theory - bit did did the

meece4x4 wrote:

andoy wrote:

want33s wrote:You got it mate.. Fill EVERY valley in the spider gears that doesn't interlock with the other gears.

Hi gents. I'm about to get my spare front diff for the "welding" project. One more question please: If the teeth on the side gear pinion only fits two valleys in the side gear at any time, can I leave more than two valleys unfilled/unwelded to have more differential movement for easier turns on corners?

Thanks.

good question ....

personally i would think that you wouldnt want *too* much movement in the gears as it would increase the chances of damaging the teeth because the spider gears would start to turn ..get a bit of momentum up then CRUNCH hit the welded teeth and not turn anymore ... i would think that would increase the amount of kinetic enery hitting the welded teeth. kinda hard to explain but i could see it dramatically increasing the chances of breaking something...

the slight amount of play you would have with just the two teeth engaged and the rest welded would I think be enough to help with unlocking the hubs.

could be wrong, quite often am ..someone else on here will prob be able to explain it better than me .... or disprove my suspisions

Thanks mate. You're right; even if all valleys are filled except where the teeth makes contact you will still have at least half a space movement before the next teeth hits the filling. I talked to a guy from whom I bought a dual sport bike today, who competes in 4x4 track and rock crawling competition on a Jeep CJ, and he said he has at one time tried the welded diff set-up and said that he actually observed that it takes one wheel turn before it locks so that should be ample movement for making a turn.

Good news is I also purchased today a complete front drive train assembly (propeller shaft to axle outer joint bearing so lots of spares in case the set up breaks anything) from a Feroza owner, so I can proceed with the project as soon as the shop can work on the third member.

Make sure to let us know how it goes - there will be many people interested in your feedback.

MightyMouse wrote:Make sure to let us know how it goes - there will be many people interested in your feedback.

I'm just as eager to get going but I just finished talking with my friend who will do the engineering build-up weld on the side gear crown and the earliest they can accept it is after New Year (Christmas/New Year is one long holiday over here for most Companies).

His only comment is that for sure the tensil strength of the welded gear will be affected by the heat during welding. But since it's been done before and the only problem I've heard are broken axels and axel joints then the negative effect on the tensil strength of the side gear must be minimal.

More as the project comes along. Christmas cheers to all!

Hello gentlemen. It's taken some time to get my spare front diff welded but welding is done now and should be assembled by next week. I hope it can be installed soon.

By the way, I was able to determine that the Feroza front differential is a GM 8.2" w/ 10 bolts but haven't checked how many spline it has. Since the shop where it's at right now is far, I couldn't do a physical count. Would any of you know this? There is a Lockrite locker for the GM 8.2", w/ 10 bolts and 28 SPLINE which cost $300 available from the US Rocky Road Outfitters. Check them out at www.rocky-road.com/noslip.html

IIRC 25 spline

MightyMouse wrote:IIRC 25 spline

Thanks. Pardon the ignorance, what does IIRC mean?

andoy wrote:

MightyMouse wrote:IIRC 25 spline

Thanks. Pardon the ignorance, what does IIRC mean?

IIRC=IF I RECALL CORRECTLY

meece4x4 wrote:

andoy wrote:

MightyMouse wrote:IIRC 25 spline

Thanks. Pardon the ignorance, what does IIRC mean?

IIRC=IF I RECALL CORRECTLY

meece is correct of course - but is being kind.

Some of us have trouble remembering what we had for lunch - let alone spline counts

MightyMouse wrote:

meece4x4 wrote:

andoy wrote:

MightyMouse wrote:IIRC 25 spline

Thanks. Pardon the ignorance, what does IIRC mean?

IIRC=IF I RECALL CORRECTLY

meece is correct of course - but is being kind.

Some of us have trouble remembering what we had for lunch - let alone spline counts

Haha, I thought it was some techie code... guess we should learn to take things less seriously no matter how passionate we may feel about our Rozas stuff.

andoy wrote:Hello gentlemen. It's taken some time to get my spare front diff welded but welding is done now and should be assembled by next week. I hope it can be installed soon.

By the way, I was able to determine that the Feroza front differential is a GM 8.2" w/ 10 bolts but haven't checked how many spline it has. Since the shop where it's at right now is far, I couldn't do a physical count. Would any of you know this? There is a Lockrite locker for the GM 8.2", w/ 10 bolts and 28 SPLINE which cost $300 available from the US Rocky Road Outfitters. Check them out at www.rocky-road.com/noslip.html

Happy Easter all.

Finally got the welded front differential installed. Tried it on some mild dirt where it did very well. Traction was super, I'm sure it can crawl out of anything. There was only mild steering resistance when cornering compared to an open diff. You have to make the rear hangout to make a u turn faster.

Can't be driven on pavement... steering resistance is almost violent.

I'm very pleased with this mod. Should work even better on solid axle compare to IFS axle which has more delicate CV joints; but careful driving should take care of this.

The experiment is worth it.

Well i believe if u want to do some serious offroading, it's easier and probably cheaper to get a common rig for hardcore stuff.

Just sharing my friend's experience when he kept breaking front diffs on his Feroza on 32XTs. Then it struck him that it's time to move onto a different rig for the stuff he's doing.

Anyway i'm sure u guys know what needs to be done to get the most out of the Feroza.
I say shy away from the phantom grip like the plague.
A locker is always the bomb.
But if u want something not so hardcore why don't u give some thought to a custom Torsen diff?
Recently i purchased a front torsen diff for my Nissan Pulsar GTi-R for around 1200aus. This company called Modena Engineering based in Victoria were willing to carry a production run with 15 orders. Personally i'll swear by a locker anyday but i heard that a torsen if driven right does wonders. Apparently u need to left foot brake to make the diff lock up.
Do some google search on brake throttle modulation in the Hummer driver's manual and u know what i mean.

The front differential has now been tested through major off-road trails (mostly old and abandoned logging roads) the traction is awesome and quite effective with no major adjustment in handling on loose surface. The system of "filling-up" of the side gears is definitely superior to the direct welding of the spider gear and side gear.

On to the next up grade now. I think a slower (crawler) transfer case gearing would be an ideal match to my locked differential; so the question is, does anybody know how this can be done, what are the options? Thanks for your help on my differential and now looking forward to your expertise for my TC.

God bless!

andoy wrote:

andoy wrote:Hello gentlemen. It's taken some time to get my spare front diff welded but welding is done now and should be assembled by next week. I hope it can be installed soon.

By the way, I was able to determine that the Feroza front differential is a GM 8.2" w/ 10 bolts but haven't checked how many spline it has. Since the shop where it's at right now is far, I couldn't do a physical count. Would any of you know this? There is a Lockrite locker for the GM 8.2", w/ 10 bolts and 28 SPLINE which cost $300 available from the US Rocky Road Outfitters. Check them out at www.rocky-road.com/noslip.html

Happy Easter all.

Finally got the welded front differential installed. Tried it on some mild dirt where it did very well. Traction was super, I'm sure it can crawl out of anything. There was only mild steering resistance when cornering compared to an open diff. You have to make the rear hangout to make a u turn faster.

Can't be driven on pavement... steering resistance is almost violent.

I'm very pleased with this mod. Should work even better on solid axle compare to IFS axle which has more delicate CV joints; but careful driving should take care of this.

The experiment is worth it.

mmm....vitara diff's......almost identical track.....almost identical gearing,brakes too easy to adapt....and can get all sorts of lockers, have tried it.

joeblow wrote:mmm....vitara diff's......almost identical track.....almost identical gearing,brakes too easy to adapt....and can get all sorts of lockers, have tried it.

Thought you would have remembered that there is at least a 50mm difference (narrower)

ey.....i did say almost....nice set off f1004x4 offsets fix that!....

joeblow wrote:ey.....i did say almost....nice set off f1004x4 offsets fix that!....

So you have done this conversion then??

Tzi wrote:

joeblow wrote:ey.....i did say almost....nice set off f1004x4 offsets fix that!....

So you have done this conversion then??

Back in '99
Then changed to Hilux running gear + sas

Hilux x2

meece4x4 wrote:

andoy wrote:

want33s wrote:You got it mate.. Fill EVERY valley in the spider gears that doesn't interlock with the other gears.

Hi gents. I'm about to get my spare front diff for the "welding" project. One more question please: If the teeth on the side gear pinion only fits two valleys in the side gear at any time, can I leave more than two valleys unfilled/unwelded to have more differential movement for easier turns on corners?

Thanks.

good question ....

personally i would think that you wouldnt want *too* much movement in the gears as it would increase the chances of damaging the teeth because the spider gears would start to turn ..get a bit of momentum up then CRUNCH hit the welded teeth and not turn anymore ... i would think that would increase the amount of kinetic enery hitting the welded teeth. kinda hard to explain but i could see it dramatically increasing the chances of breaking something...

the slight amount of play you would have with just the two teeth engaged and the rest welded would I think be enough to help with unlocking the hubs.

could be wrong, quite often am ..someone else on here will prob be able to explain it better than me .... or disprove my suspisions

You're spot on! I'm thankful bought into your thinking; here's an update on this process in use. Over the weekend our group went on a very difficult up mountain trail. There was another Feroza with welded side gears in front but with only a couple of the valleys filled; he poped his clutch on hi rev while trying to get out of a rut and the gears cruched the weld, crippling his front diff and effectively loosing 4wd. Mine which has all valleys filled except those in contact with the spiders had no problem inspite off having to snatch off the mud the other Feroza and a Ford Everest SUV.

Now that I have an excellently working fossy locker on my IFS; next question is:

Can I cut off some of the top of the downward bump stop limiter that's welded to the chassis to allow additional downward travel of the front suspension? (I've already removed the rubber bump stop attached to the upper U-arm and put longer shocks after the torsion bars were cranked up 2".)

If I lower the height of the bump stop, will it pose a danger to my CV joints since they could get angled nearly 45degrees downward from horizontal when it articulates while crawling?

Thanks in advance mates.