Outer Limits 4x4 Board

shlacks wrote:so wheel align and wheel balance is being done... check wheel bearing play nip up if loose... you already have replaced steering box with known good one... checked panard rod bolts/bushes for whole diff sideways movement???

no panhard rod. leaf sprung.

ive got 2 vids up.. they are in .mp4 format off my fone so you will need to right click save as and watch them on your pc/mac. use vlc or quicktime to view

http://www.phat42.com/clips/Video022.mp4 (45mb - RIGHT CLICK SAVE AS!!!) - this vid shows the leaning of the shackles.. its pretty high quality which is why its so big a file..
http://www.phat42.com/clips/Video022.AVI (16mb - right click save as)

http://www.phat42.com/clips/Video023.mp4 (5mb) - this is watching the end of the pitman arm with slight back/forward turns..
http://www.phat42.com/clips/Video023.AVI (2.6mb)

I tightened up the spring retainers today.. haven't had a chance to see if thats helped (I dont get over 60kph on the way to/from work)..

shlacks : wheel bearings are tight.

*edit added smaller .AVI files.

toe in means that the front of the tires are slightly closer together than the back, toe out is the opposite.

there are some good threads on IH8mud for optimal toe setting, as the standard values are shit when you put on bigger rubber/lift it etc.

Shit Andy, that shackle movement is excessive. I have no doubts thats where your problem is. I only downloaded the 45MB file and from that it looks lke its the upper shackle mounts that are allowing the movement. Something is wrong there, seems like the bushes are either really badly flogged out or the pins are not thick enough (diameter) to engage the bushes correctly therefore allowing the movement. I'd pull it apart and have a look. If the bushes are not worn then I'd measure the diameter of the pin and compare to the standard shackle pins.

RAY185 wrote:Shit Andy, that shackle movement is excessive. I have no doubts thats where your problem is. I only downloaded the 45MB file and from that it looks lke its the upper shackle mounts that are allowing the movement. Something is wrong there, seems like the bushes are either really badly flogged out or the pins are not thick enough (diameter) to engage the bushes correctly therefore allowing the movement. I'd pull it apart and have a look. If the bushes are not worn then I'd measure the diameter of the pin and compare to the standard shackle pins.

glad you got a chance to look at the vid Ray.. the shackles have the same pins they've alwasy had and I haven't REALLY had this problem before (that ive noticed..) I've had those shackles on for at least 3yrs now..

I think I have some spare bushes at home I can try and throw in the front end.. (shackle hanger).. Currently they are poly bushes (as with what I will be replacing them with).

I guess if i can do that and repeat whats happening in the vid it will give a good indication if the problem is solvered.

bad_religion_au wrote:toe in means that the front of the tires are slightly closer together than the back, toe out is the opposite.

there are some good threads on IH8mud for optimal toe setting, as the standard values are shit when you put on bigger rubber/lift it etc.

cheers for that I'll have a read tonight and see what I can find.

replaced the front hanger bushes tonight.. dont think there is any improvement. i think i might replace ALL bushes on the front end.

check your castor too

a differential in castor between left and right can cause wobbles too

shorty_f0rty wrote:replaced the front hanger bushes tonight.. dont think there is any improvement. i think i might replace ALL bushes on the front end.

not sure what you are running for bushes, but replace with good poly ones. i've had a few 40's that have had the same problem at one time or another, often just after a tire size/change.

others have posted the most obvious, king pin bearings, wheel bearings, castor shims and those damn dampners.

sounds like those are good/been checked, so...

if you have not done them in a while, change ALL the spring bushes. they don't seem to last long with regular wheeling/driving. my experience is a couple of years at the very most.

and who doesnt like a fresh bush?

crustybj60 wrote:

shorty_f0rty wrote:replaced the front hanger bushes tonight.. dont think there is any improvement. i think i might replace ALL bushes on the front end.

not sure what you are running for bushes, but replace with good poly ones. i've had a few 40's that have had the same problem at one time or another, often just after a tire size/change.

others have posted the most obvious, king pin bearings, wheel bearings, castor shims and those damn dampners.

sounds like those are good/been checked, so...

if you have not done them in a while, change ALL the spring bushes. they don't seem to last long with regular wheeling/driving. my experience is a couple of years at the very most.

and who doesnt like a fresh bush?

hah! too true.. ive got some bushes on order now and plan to change them all at the front.. wheel alignment is getting done today so hope that covers all bases.

Z()LTAN wrote:check your castor too

a differential in castor between left and right can cause wobbles too

forgive me if i'm missing something, but considering it's live axle... wouldn't different castor left to right infer that the housing was twisted?

bad_religion_au wrote:

Z()LTAN wrote:check your castor too

a differential in castor between left and right can cause wobbles too

forgive me if i'm missing something, but considering it's live axle... wouldn't different castor left to right infer that the housing was twisted?

with the alloy castor wedge's I have they have a long slot allowing about 10mm of differences side to side.. depending on the degrees of the wedges im sure it would have some effect if they were 10mm diff between em.

anyway.. wheel alignment got done today the dude said i had 8mm of play in my steering.. I thought the box I had in there was pretty good (it was heaps better compared to the other box).. he didnt really say much else about it.. I hope to have new bushes all round by the weekend so i can tick that item of the list too.

oi mate, iv been their, diidnt read allthe replys, but iv had the exact same problem, go get all ur U bolt nuts tightnd with a rattle gun, it fixed myne!

iv gotta get em tightnd evry 5000 kms, they get loose evry now and then,

p.S any idea how to get any flex outa parabolic springs? (3 leaf springs)

hope this helped bud

Andy, did he tell you the play was in the steering box? Did he give you any figures from your wheel alignment? (caster/toe)

RAY185 wrote:Andy, did he tell you the play was in the steering box? Did he give you any figures from your wheel alignment? (caster/toe)

nup he just said "steering" and "with both wheels off the ground he could get 8mm of movement from the wheels".. so i assume thats the box?

I mentioned toe and they dont measure that.. didnt say anything about castor.

did you notice in the 2nd vid how the pitman arm into the draglink(?) there was a bit of movement in that TRE? could this be where the movement is coming from?

Havent seen the second vid mate, I'll download it now. Yeah it could be any one of the linkages in the steering thats giving the freeplay. Would have been nice if he actually looked for what was moving while he was there. Would have also been nice if he gave you the caster measurment. You reckon you might be able to get that measurement off him if you rang him? He might have a record or remember. You should pop in sometime and I'll check whats moving. (going to watch that second vid now).

Wish I'd bothered to download that second video before. That TRE has got heaps of freeplay. It is adjustable though (thats the new one isnt it?). Remove the splitpin, get a big screwdriver and wind that nut in (using the screwdriver in the void that the splitpin filled) while someone is jiggling the steering left and right until there is no more freeplay and the nut gets a bit tight. Back the nut off about half a turn and make the holes line up to refit the split pin. That should remove the freeplay out of that joint then you can check if there is anything else allowing movement.

alright.. new bushes arrived yesterday arvo (Thanks 4wdStuff for the sub 24hr turnaround!!).. adjusted that particular TRE this morning too.. I hope to get the front end bushes done tonight in time for the weekend..

also i'm going to drop into the wheel alignment place this morning and see if I can get a copy of the report.. or at least find out Castor, toe and camber(?) or anything else they can provide..

I've got next week off Ray so I will more than likely pop in sometime then to chew the fat and catch up ..

David.T the u-bolts were done up recently using my hi lift handle as a breaker bar so they should be REALLY tight.. (can you tighten U-bolts too much??)

Sounds like who ever did the wheel alignment was interested in you money, not getting the job done properly. Any decent mechanic would NOT do the wheel alignment if there was any excessive wear/movement in any of the steering/suspension components.

As soon as you replace or adjust anything, the wheel alignment really needs to be done again.

Seriously, go to a reputable suspension specialist who should be able to diagnose what is wrong, fix it, and set up your steering/suspension correctly.

If you cant afford it, just think about the cost if you got the wobbles and hit a mercedes, a solicitor, or worse still, had a prang and injured yourself and the girlfriend.

If you are really strapped for cash I have the old TRE's from my 60 series which are still ok, (about 4 years old and have had little off road work) but I replaced them as I have completely rebuilt my front end. There is also an OME steering damper. You are welcome to all, just organize postage freight.

One other thing I noticed, what model cruiser pitman arm are you running? Doesn't look like a 60 series.....

flyology.. not sure where you got the idea I was a tight ass but thats not the case.. I was charged $50 by GoodYear for the wheel alignment (I chose them because they are walking distance from work not because of cost).. I mainly wanted the wheel alignment as I had adjusted the tie rod by eye and noticed tyre wear and based on recommendations here.

I have purchased new bushes all round (yet to install). I have purchased new TRE's. I purchased a big bore steering dampener. I had a service and got my mechanic to check over my work. So I understand that the cost of skimping on this stuff is a lot more than saving a few bucks on cheap parts or work. My Pitman arm is off a 70 series (BJ74 apparently). its a bout 1inch shorter than the 60 pitman arm.

I got the report back on the work done on the wheel alignment.

Previous values (LH/RH):
Total toe: +15.7mm
Camber: +0.09deg/+0.94deg
Caster: +1.66deg/+1.83deg
symmetry error: +0.05deg

Final values (LH/RH):
Total Toe: +1.7mm
Camber: +0.21deg/+0.88deg
Castor: +1.96deg/+1.7deg
symmetry error: +0.68deg

There is significant difference between total toe... at a glance it appears LH had HEAPs more than the RH.

Sorry if I gave you the impression I thought you were a tight arse, I don't think that!

I do still think you need to take your vehicle to a suspension specialist, not a tyre fitter. Big difference between the two....

I am sure most will agree that any decent mechanic would have picked up on the worn bushes and loose pitman arm drag link, and told you they needed to be replaced/adjusted before a wheel alignment should be done.

Another problem that could be causing your mad shakes is tyre wear, if the steering was out so much and the tyres have worn unevenly it could amplify any problems, or vica verca.

Does it shake on both sets of tyres??

the hard thing about taking it to a specialist is its not your standard 40series suspension.. a lot of work has going into customising it to what it is today along with upgrading and doing the steering as well.. I understand that a side affect of all this stuffing around and customisation is this sort of behaviour or the possibility that the results of wear on components is exaggerated more due to my setup. thats what makes it difficult and certaining contributes to considerable cost when taking it to an expert.

Im aware that with leaf suspenion there is a definate list of things that can be checked by me to ensure they are tight/new components and how they affect the performance of my 40. My mechanic is aware of my mods and also the fact that I am able to do a bit of work myself. Some of these items he has mentioned (wheel bearings, etc) and others he has not.. possibly due to the results of a weekend of 4wding after he'd seen the vehicle.

its interesting you mention the 2 sets of tyres.. this is something I haven't really checked. After changing my steering setup and prior to my wheel alignment I hvae noticed some abnormal wear on my 31" AT tyres, and it is entirely possibly this has something to do with the wobbles.

I might continue to change one thing at a time and monitor the situation because if I change bushs, and tyres then how will I know what the fix actually was?

thanks for your comments too.. it all helps me now and others later.

shorty_f0rty wrote:flyology.. not sure where you got the idea I was a tight ass but thats not the case.. I was charged $50 by GoodYear for the wheel alignment (I chose them because they are walking distance from work not because of cost).. I mainly wanted the wheel alignment as I had adjusted the tie rod by eye and noticed tyre wear and based on recommendations here.

I have purchased new bushes all round (yet to install). I have purchased new TRE's. I purchased a big bore steering dampener. I had a service and got my mechanic to check over my work. So I understand that the cost of skimping on this stuff is a lot more than saving a few bucks on cheap parts or work. My Pitman arm is off a 70 series (BJ74 apparently). its a bout 1inch shorter than the 60 pitman arm.

I got the report back on the work done on the wheel alignment.

Previous values (LH/RH):
Total toe: +15.7mm
Camber: +0.09deg/+0.94deg
Caster: +1.66deg/+1.83deg
symmetry error: +0.05deg

Final values (LH/RH):
Total Toe: +1.7mm
Camber: +0.21deg/+0.88deg
Castor: +1.96deg/+1.7deg
symmetry error: +0.68deg

There is significant difference between total toe... at a glance it appears LH had HEAPs more than the RH.

jump on mud with these figures. they know what the go is for running bigger tires etc. i'd be a bit ??? about the camber difference.

bad_religion_au wrote:

shorty_f0rty wrote:flyology.. not sure where you got the idea I was a tight ass but thats not the case.. I was charged $50 by GoodYear for the wheel alignment (I chose them because they are walking distance from work not because of cost).. I mainly wanted the wheel alignment as I had adjusted the tie rod by eye and noticed tyre wear and based on recommendations here.

I have purchased new bushes all round (yet to install). I have purchased new TRE's. I purchased a big bore steering dampener. I had a service and got my mechanic to check over my work. So I understand that the cost of skimping on this stuff is a lot more than saving a few bucks on cheap parts or work. My Pitman arm is off a 70 series (BJ74 apparently). its a bout 1inch shorter than the 60 pitman arm.

I got the report back on the work done on the wheel alignment.

Previous values (LH/RH):
Total toe: +15.7mm
Camber: +0.09deg/+0.94deg
Caster: +1.66deg/+1.83deg
symmetry error: +0.05deg

Final values (LH/RH):
Total Toe: +1.7mm
Camber: +0.21deg/+0.88deg
Castor: +1.96deg/+1.7deg
symmetry error: +0.68deg

There is significant difference between total toe... at a glance it appears LH had HEAPs more than the RH.

jump on mud with these figures. they know what the go is for running bigger tires etc. i'd be a bit ??? about the camber difference.

if big you mean 31's? cos thats the tyres im running at the moment.

another thing inoticed tonight as i was changing bushes was the front most spring retaining clamp was missing from the drivers side front spring.. the other side had 2, drivers just one.im sure this doesnt help. does anyone know if you can put retainers on without removing the leaf from the pack?

Hi all, i too get the front end wobble from time to time, i have extended shackles and run rubber bushes to get maximum travel out of the old girl. i know what you mean by the front shackles swaying as you turn the steering wheel. I do a lot of wheeling and what i find is the front bushes flog out real quick, thats basically when the normal wobble u get turns into that uncontrolable one. New spring bushes fixes my problem untill they wear out again, lately ive been changing them every couple of months.
Denny

a bit of an update..
i replaced the bushes on saturday.. i found one of the rear fixed hanger bushes had split through.. this could be an issue I spose..

i went for a strap afterwards and still noticed the wobble there at around 80-90kph but it didnt build up to a mega wobble.. but its still there..

i noticed after replacing my bushes that my shackles still have a bit of a gap on some of the springs (like 1 or 2 sides has about 2-4mm gap where i can't tighten it enough to close the shackle completely against the side of the bushes)...

I haven't rotated tyres yet... might talk to a spring place about the retainer and see what they can do.. not keen to drop the whole leaf pack for 1 retainer...

shorty_f0rty wrote:

bad_religion_au wrote:

shorty_f0rty wrote:flyology.. not sure where you got the idea I was a tight ass but thats not the case.. I was charged $50 by GoodYear for the wheel alignment (I chose them because they are walking distance from work not because of cost).. I mainly wanted the wheel alignment as I had adjusted the tie rod by eye and noticed tyre wear and based on recommendations here.

I have purchased new bushes all round (yet to install). I have purchased new TRE's. I purchased a big bore steering dampener. I had a service and got my mechanic to check over my work. So I understand that the cost of skimping on this stuff is a lot more than saving a few bucks on cheap parts or work. My Pitman arm is off a 70 series (BJ74 apparently). its a bout 1inch shorter than the 60 pitman arm.

I got the report back on the work done on the wheel alignment.

Previous values (LH/RH):
Total toe: +15.7mm
Camber: +0.09deg/+0.94deg
Caster: +1.66deg/+1.83deg
symmetry error: +0.05deg

Final values (LH/RH):
Total Toe: +1.7mm
Camber: +0.21deg/+0.88deg
Castor: +1.96deg/+1.7deg
symmetry error: +0.68deg

There is significant difference between total toe... at a glance it appears LH had HEAPs more than the RH.

jump on mud with these figures. they know what the go is for running bigger tires etc. i'd be a bit ??? about the camber difference.

if big you mean 31's? cos thats the tyres im running at the moment.

another thing inoticed tonight as i was changing bushes was the front most spring retaining clamp was missing from the drivers side front spring.. the other side had 2, drivers just one.im sure this doesnt help. does anyone know if you can put retainers on without removing the leaf from the pack?

one is plenty... i've run none in the front of mine for a couple of years with no issue.

no way to put em back on without dropping the springs, pulling the pack apart, and rivetting it back in. prick of a job if you want to DIY it too...

what's causing the gap? is the non threaded part of your shackle pin too wide?

and why i said check mud was that 1. factory settings were a compromise between stable, and able to turn... with power steering, you can take it further to stable.

2. no point getting an alignment, and having it wrong when you bolt up the JT's.

Hey mate,

Had the same death shakes on my Hilux after going to 33" roadies, after putting on a RTC Tough Dog dampner the shakes were still there. Tightened the shackle bolts up and she drives sweet

shackle bolts or pins rather is where it was at... spot the difference..




visited Ray yesterday and he showed me the top shackle pin twist about 10mm each side when steering while stationary.. so we figured the pins were a few mm too long and the shoulder of the pin was allowing the gap allowing the side to side movement of the front end.. even with the bolts up as tight as they would go you couldn't close the gap..

with the hassles getting that spring retainer in i think i'll run without it for a while... i still haven't rotated/balanced the AT's.. I'll be going for a fwy run tonight so we'll really see if its sorted around 100kph..

flyology wrote:Sounds like who ever did the wheel alignment was interested in you money, not getting the job done properly. Any decent mechanic would NOT do the wheel alignment if there was any excessive wear/movement in any of the steering/suspension components.

As soon as you replace or adjust anything, the wheel alignment really needs to be done again.

Seriously, go to a reputable suspension specialist who should be able to diagnose what is wrong, fix it, and set up your steering/suspension correctly.

think i might hit the wheel alignment place to do it again either at a discount or for free if i can make sure ive fixed it.